On the matter of Clubs and Ladder Organizations...Looking for Input...

[Field Marshall]

Hi all,

I have been around the AGEOD forums for a number of years, mostly recruiting for various organizations I am a part of. A recent conversation with a AGEOD gamer got me thinking and I wanted to gather input from more people. So here goes. Folks can answer any or all questions they want.

1.) Are you a member of any ladder organization or wargaming Club? If so, which ones?

2.) What do you like about them?

3.) What do you not like?

4.) Do you think that strategic games and AGEOD games are often overlooked?

5.) What would encourage you to join them?

6.) Do you often feel when you do get involved you are a second class citizen because you play a different type of game?

7.) If organizations made a dedicated effort to show that they want you to be with them and find ways to encourage folks to join, support their style of games and celebrate it and your type of gamer, would you consider joining them more closely?

8.) If an organization was to create a strictly AGEOD/Slitherine based game ladder where all strategic and any tactical games by those makers were to be included, encouraged, welcomed and celebrate, would you consider joining it?

9.) Please leave any other comments or questions you have under as well.


There are a couple of organizations that are taking a closer look at the AGEOD games and what we can do or do better to get folks involved and so I thought I'd come and ask from you all what you thought.

The organizations that are directly working to perfect a good plan are:

The Blitzkrieg Wargaming Club

&

The Colonial Campaigns Club (CCC)

Of course if you wish to talk to me in private or send your answers in private, email me at eric2900@aol.com if AOL doesn't work for you, email me at sludwig2900@gmail.com

Thanks everyone,

-Scott Ludwig

[Durk]

Hope you get some ideas.

My question, why do you wish to have gamers join you club? Are Ageod games of interest?

[Field Marshall]

Well to be honest I really enjoy the games myself. I have felt that no organization like the ones I am apart of have taken a serious look at them besides the Colonial Campaigns Club (CCC). A Club I used to run the International Napoleonics Wargaming Club (iNWC) used them and had some good success, but that club folded a while back.

For the Blitzkrieg Wargaming Club it is about finding a way to incorporate strategic games into our system more and to bring a different type of gaming to that organization and maybe find appeal in these games for our members and folks here might find some appeal in us.

For the Colonial Campaigns Club it is about building on some early successes we enjoyed with the games and offering folks, those who might enjoy a Club that offers what we do a chance to be a part of something. Our focus there is wars from the Colonial period of North America & Early American period. The French & Indian War, American Revolution, War of 1812 and Mexican-American War. I actually personally led a campaign to include Rise of Prussia on the basis that it is a period that goes hand in hand with the French and Indian War, after all they are the same conflict. It was accepted, but not many people have it. A lot of folks have Wars in America and Birth of America 1 though. The thing that has been an issue is not realizing potential always from these games and when someone joins it is often few and far between, that sometimes means an opponent isn't readily available. But we still have folks who enjoy the games. Our practices and policies have become better now too. We are more relaxed now than we used to be. We are also experiencing a regrowth again and I am hoping to pick up some AGEOD folks along the way to sustain that end too.

I feel we can offer a lot to folks who enjoy these three games and immerse them in a world that is a bit more than just a routine PBEM game. We are passionate about the period, but not unwelcoming and compared to the other places, we are small enough to make folks feel at home and also do not get in peoples faces with those certain "historical" aspects of the Clubs like mustering each month and having to participate in other things that can drive the casual gamer away. We strive for a balance of fair treatment for all and keeping people informed of what we are up to, but not spamming them either. It is a great place for the casual gamer and we will maintain that feel....

I also have always felt for years that no Clubs/Ladder organizations can rely on one game maker or type of game. That many need to be used to create a true collective of wargamers. It also helps with getting new people into our organizations as well as highlight trends and also other games out there in the genre. The case for us to add a game is easier in my opinion than it is to hook new members into our Clubs and the AGEOD users have been a somewhat elusive crowd compared to others. Granted a not always steady show of support has been given, especially in our sister Clubs at the ACWGC & NWC. I also must admit that the learning curve on some of the games can be high for your average person not used to the system. But I have been hooked on it for years and am trying to discover more about the games.

I also think a true wargaming Club needs to have a good mix of tactical and strategic games and devoted attention to both equally. That I am committed to 100%.

[TheDoctorKing]

I was part of a local ftf board gaming club for many years. We mostly played Advanced Squad Leader, though occasionally we would do a multi-player strategy game like Republic of Rome or Seven Ages. We had a ladder and reported our games to the online registry. We had ratings and club tournaments and the whole business. It was a lot of fun. We went to regional and national tournaments as a group and did fairly well - for a while, we even hosted a regional tournament that attracted some top players world-wide, who would routinely kick our butts. The group finally faded out as members moved on to other activities, died, fought each other, got tired of each others' eccentricities or political points of view, etc.

These days, I participate in a regular on-line ASL tournament, using VASSAL. A guy in Italy organizes it, and it is set up like a European football league, with upper and lower divisions and promotion and relegation. This is my second year in the premiership, but I am facing relegation unless I can win my final match. I defeated my opponent fairly handily last year but I imagine he's out for blood this year. Of course, if I get relegated, I won't have to wake up in the middle of the night any more to play guys in Europe (the lower division leagues are regional, there is a US West Coast league with almost everybody within an hour or so of my time zone).

So yes, this is a fun activity. I imagine it would be hard to do with the AGEOD games, since they take so darn long to play. A ladder might be plausible if you could get a significant fraction of the active players to participate. There would have to be some handicapping system to balance results in different games and scenarios, maybe based on consensus handicapping to start with, modified by experience over time. This might encourage more people to play the games against a live opponent. So go for it! We are counting on you, Napoleon! Vive l'Empereur!

[Hobbes]

I'm still a member of the blitz but rarely post now - only due to time problems. I was active with the CS ladder and created a few scenarios under the hobbes name. It's a wonderful site with friendly and helpful people and the PBEM scenario reporting is superb. A great way to get an understanding of how balanced a scenario is for designers and players. As an aside - for designers it is also a nice way to see that their scenarios are actually being played and enjoyed (or maybe not )

Problem is always the critical mass - if enough players are playing, posting and reporting it can only be a good thing?

Cheers,
Chris

[Field Marshall]

Thanks for your reply! I think you touch on a key concept below:

The group finally faded out as members moved on to other activities, died, fought each other, got tired of each others' eccentricities or political points of view, etc.

To mitigate them is key, no doubt. But all things have a natural course of life. That is pretty cool though you were able to organize like that in person.

So yes, this is a fun activity. I imagine it would be hard to do with the AGEOD games, since they take so darn long to play. A ladder might be plausible if you could get a significant fraction of the active players to participate. There would have to be some handicapping system to balance results in different games and scenarios, maybe based on consensus handicapping to start with, modified by experience over time. This might encourage more people to play the games against a live opponent. So go for it! We are counting on you, Napoleon! Vive l'Empereur!

Live playing is one thing that can be tricky. Our organizations usually operate on PBEM. Just easier for folks to manage and do on their own time. How the Blitz works is it has different modifiers for the results or size of forces involved depending on the types of games they are. The system isn't advanced enough for experience per say, but has wins/loss built into the rankings. The Colonial Club is more turn based with victory result modifiers tied in to the game results. Our rank points are lower than the Blitz, plus we crunch numbers by hand, so a simple system is needed.

Will certainly see what can be done to develop a ladder at the Blitz and also to keep encouraging use at the Colonial Campaigns Club.

Thanks for your input!

[Field Marshall]

I'm still a member of the blitz but rarely post now - only due to time problems. I was active with the CS ladder and created a few scenarios under the hobbes name. It's a wonderful site with friendly and helpful people and the PBEM scenario reporting is superb. A great way to get an understanding of how balanced a scenario is for designers and players. As an aside - for designers it is also a nice way to see that their scenarios are actually being played and enjoyed (or maybe not )

Problem is always the critical mass - if enough players are playing, posting and reporting it can only be a good thing?

Cheers,
Chris

Chris,

Thanks for you reply. I will have to look up your scenarios and details there some time. The issue of time commitments is the key problem. We all can only do so much. But the Blitz's reporting system is really different and I bet it was good for helping you and others gauge your designs.

Indeed, what you say is interesting. The critical mass and that is the key and often it is good, but sometimes it is tricky too....recognition for ones organization to its audience is key too. That type of mass marketing is endless on the internet and can even drown your own efforts....

Thanks for your input as well, much appreciated!

[H Gilmer3]

I think most of the people that come here view it as a sort of club/family and because it is a lot more active than club forums, most people just come here as opposed to going to a club website. I think that is encouraged, accepted, and helped along by the fact that the people that run Ageod have such a close role here and are very active in the forums. The customer service here is excellent and the forums are very active.

[Hobbes]

To actually answer your questions:

1.) Are you a member of any ladder organization or wargaming Club? If so, which ones?
Just the blitz. (and maybe the Napoleonic Wargame club - but can't remember the website address now - great site when I was playing John Tiller's games).
I might even have been a member of the Colonial Campaigns Club at some point - but maybe just lurked. A good PBEM friend of mine was quite active there years ago. Mainly played CS, Panzer Campaigns (but Korea etc as well) + the Tiller Napoleonic games (and a bit of TOAW - but never reported that at the blitz).

2.) What do you like about them?
The people are great and the scenario reporting is a really good tool.

3.) What do you not like?
A site change at the blitz a few years ago seemed to remove value rather than add it. Can't remember why now but it killed things a bit for me.
Also put off a bit by the Matrix version of the Campaign Series insinuating cheating when over x number of saves - very weird. Some nice changes to the game
but a few I didn't like as well. I was quite happy the way things were before Matrix I suppose.

4.) Do you think that strategic games and AGEOD games are often overlooked?
I've never thought about AGEOD games being represented at other sites. If they could be it would be no bad thing but their home and the 'critical mass' seems to be here. Great to try though.

5.) What would encourage you to join them?
I'd join - just let me know when the board is up and running.

6.) Do you often feel when you do get involved you are a second class citizen because you play a different type of game?
I don't understand this question - why would I get involved if there is no forum for the game I'm playing?

7.) If organizations made a dedicated effort to show that they want you to be with them and find ways to encourage folks to join, support their style of games and celebrate it and your type of gamer, would you consider joining them more closely?
Not sure I understand the question. If a website has content that I am interested in I will read it - if I know it exists.

8.) If an organization was to create a strictly AGEOD/Slitherine based game ladder where all strategic and any tactical games by those makers were to be included, encouraged, welcomed and celebrate, would you consider joining it?
If I still played PBEM it would be fun to join an AGEOD ladder. Many strategic games take a long time to play though - so not sure they are well suited to a ladder.
At my CS peak I could have four or five games going on at a time and report the results every few weeks. With ACW for example it could take months before a game is completed.

9.) Please leave any other comments or questions you have under as well.
Thanks for posting!

Cheers,
Chris

[Baris]

1- Blitz and NWC.
2- Both club members were very helpful about game rules&mechanics (for PC and Napoleonic series) and historical background when playing Pbem games.
4- Yes
6- Yes, mainstream forums or generally gaming community mostly interested in RTW 2 lately.
7- It is tricky question mainly because at some point it involves popular games?
8- I always play for fun not for ladder and I think Ageod forums are all adequate about finding opponents so strictly AGEOD/Slitherine based game ladder won't effect my opinion. But people may prefer ladder competition.
9- As for comments:
For specifically PC and Napoleonic games; scenario designers respond PM as much as quickly. If not answers for any specific question can be found in different forums though it needs throughly research. But generally if any mistake in the scenario can take a long time to correct officially in those games. Not the fault of the scenario designers. In Ageod games devs have also quick response and much more innovative about tweaking game engine.

[Field Marshall]

I think most of the people that come here view it as a sort of club/family and because it is a lot more active than club forums, most people just come here as opposed to going to a club website. I think that is encouraged, accepted, and helped along by the fact that the people that run Ageod have such a close role here and are very active in the forums. The customer service here is excellent and the forums are very active.

That certainly is a very good reason. The developers are present a lot more here than a lot of other game maker websites.... I always see them responding et al.

Also I can see it being a family of sorts and an easy place for people to come.

[Field Marshall]

Chris,

Thanks for your reply, very good to note. I am wondering what you mean by this one:

3.) What do you not like?
A site change at the blitz a few years ago seemed to remove value rather than add it. Can't remember why now but it killed things a bit for me.
Also put off a bit by the Matrix version of the Campaign Series insinuating cheating when over x number of saves - very weird. Some nice changes to the game
but a few I didn't like as well. I was quite happy the way things were before Matrix I suppose.

Were you accused of such or was it a flaw in the game that could have folks be concerned about? I am not sure I fully understand what you're saying here, but I'm guessing it is a game flaw.

4.) Do you think that strategic games and AGEOD games are often overlooked?
I've never thought about AGEOD games being represented at other sites. If they could be it would be no bad thing but their home and the 'critical mass' seems to be here. Great to try though.

Actually they are represented in all three of the Wargame Clubs, but have the most games at the Colonial Campaigns Club (CCC) with Birth of America, Wars in American and Rise of Prussia.

But yes their critical mass and home is here, obviously. I should of framed the question in a way, in that do you think they are overlooked by Clubs & Ladders that you might be interested in joining, if you were into that type of thing. No one is trying to take away from the value here.

5.) What would encourage you to join them?
I'd join - just let me know when the board is up and running.

The Blitz board is a little off in the distance, still have some negotiating to do and get final approval from the Senior Staff there. Sadly I can't wave my magic wand and just go with it like I can in other places. But if we do get it passed, I will certainly inform everyone here.

I will say the best place to get involved in right now is the Colonial Campaigns Club (CCC) - link is here: http://wargame.ch/1776/index.html

We have a few AGEOD gamers already, Durk being one of them and him and I have been in discussions about things related to AGEOD there. We have a really friendly platform that is focused on gaming and fun. I am hoping, if we can get enough folks, to start an AGEOD Tournament there with the three games we use. I also wanted to say that our "Training" introduction to the Club, where we play a short game with folks and make sure they understand PBEM & the games, is OPTIONAL. If you are already a veteran, no need to do it. We just get you started right away.

In fact the face of who you deal with really won't change. You'll be dealing with me when you first join and I'll get folks situated and you'll hear from me at least once a month in a Club Newsletter and a few other items. I am present on the forum and always reachable by email too. It might actually encourage me to play some games and get my backside kicked a bit for fun, but if that is the price I pay for getting folks interested, I am more than glad to pay it.

But I wouldn't be on here if I didn't like the games and if I wouldn't be who folks would see if they decided to cross over to a Club.

6.) Do you often feel when you do get involved you are a second class citizen because you play a different type of game?
I don't understand this question - why would I get involved if there is no forum for the game I'm playing?


7.) If organizations made a dedicated effort to show that they want you to be with them and find ways to encourage folks to join, support their style of games and celebrate it and your type of gamer, would you consider joining them more closely?
Not sure I understand the question. If a website has content that I am interested in I will read it - if I know it exists.

Sorry for the confusion on these two. These might be geared a bit more towards those who are involved currently or have been involved in any Club or Ladder that has played AGEOD games.

8.) If an organization was to create a strictly AGEOD/Slitherine based game ladder where all strategic and any tactical games by those makers were to be included, encouraged, welcomed and celebrate, would you consider joining it?
If I still played PBEM it would be fun to join an AGEOD ladder. Many strategic games take a long time to play though - so not sure they are well suited to a ladder.
At my CS peak I could have four or five games going on at a time and report the results every few weeks. With ACW for example it could take months before a game is completed.

The fact that a game takes a while to play is fine. There are many HPS/Tiller scenarios that can take a year or two to play given turns and size of armies et al. That is a given and everyone moves at their own pace. No one is going to force you to finish a game in a certain amount of time. Everyone has a real life, I do for sure and folks are used to that.


Thanks for your responses Chris, I appreciate them a lot! It is a good gauge of things. I hope my responses were a bit more clear.

[Field Marshall]

1- Blitz and NWC.
2- Both club members were very helpful about game rules&mechanics (for PC and Napoleonic series) and historical background when playing Pbem games.
4- Yes
6- Yes, mainstream forums or generally gaming community mostly interested in RTW 2 lately.
7- It is tricky question mainly because at some point it involves popular games?
8- I always play for fun not for ladder and I think Ageod forums are all adequate about finding opponents so strictly AGEOD/Slitherine based game ladder won't effect my opinion. But people may prefer ladder competition.
9- As for comments:
For specifically PC and Napoleonic games; scenario designers respond PM as much as quickly. If not answers for any specific question can be found in different forums though it needs throughly research. But generally if any mistake in the scenario can take a long time to correct officially in those games. Not the fault of the scenario designers. In Ageod games devs have also quick response and much more innovative about tweaking game engine.

Baris,

I am familiar with your name, having seen it on the NWC rolls, but have yet to talk with you until now. It is a pleasure to chat with you.

I am glad to see you at the NWC & Blitz and I am glad to hear they were helpful in getting you situated and started.

For your answers to questions 4 & 6, I feel that way about all of the very detailed, histoircal games we play. I also feel within that community the value of the strategic games are overlooked. A fine example from the sister company of AGEOD, at Slitherine, the Commander Series, I feel is overlooked a lot. So I can understand your perspective too on it. But I concur with the Rome Total War 2 assessment...

As for number 7, that is true, the popular games do drive it. But if there was a good subset movement of a certain game, I could think it worthy of looking into.

For number 8, of course, no doubt everyone has their own preferernce of play and folks enjoy differnet places for different reasons. That is why a conversation like this is good. A little bit of exposure for my choice of play and a little bit of exposure for the type of play here.

Finally I concur that certain companies are good and certain designers are good at responding quickly to questions. Also that some forums are really helpful with info on them already. I have always found the AGEOD forums to be very helpful. I am hoping to explore some Mods one of these days for my games.

Thanks for your replies Baris!