English Civil War game

[Duckman]

I think that your ‘game engine’ is great for the American Revolution and American Civil War periods – and so I believe that it would be just as good for an English Civil War (ECW) game.

The ECW is very well suited to a regional (counties and major cities) game map – and the loyalty of different regions could be easily modelled by your game system. Many different scenarios could be designed for an ECW game – ranging from a ‘grand campaign’ for the whole period to different scenarios for different years.

I’m not sure how commercial such a game would be though. I haven’t heard of any other computer game that covers the ECW – and so such a game could establish a new niche in the market.

i think the market for a 1618-1648 game would be far greater. of course, an english civil war scenario would be a nice perk for the english speaking world but i bet the level of interest in a 30 years game in continental europe would be really huge! at least at the level of a napoelonic game.

[arsan]

The problem is that there is no real market for this title, so we would not make up the time and money invested in the game.... but it could be easily done as a Mod by an enthusiastic volunteer such as you...

Our games look complex, but once you got the logic, this is not so difficult. One Spanish member in this forum has already started a very ambitious mod with Napoleon, and we give him support...this is feasible...ask him...

Contact is: aryaman

Hi
Phil is talking about the Punic Wars project aryaman is working on
You can check the project subforum here
http://www.ageod-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=173
I'm sure its going to be cool!
Regards

[berto]

i think the market for a 1618-1648 game would be far greater

Is that really true, among the European general public? Is the Thirty Years War still high in the European consciousness?

I am quite certain that, among the American general public (and even among many American war gamers), mention of "the Thirty Years War" would draw a blank. (A very few Americans would know what you meant by "the Hundred Years War.")

OTOH, this American would be among the first in line to purchase any AGEod Thirty Years War title (and I'd likely volunteer to be a beta tester, too!).

[tagwyn]

Pocus: Not interested in ECW. Would not purchase. apy:

[Duckman]

Is that really true, among the European general public? Is the Thirty Years War still high in the European consciousness?

I am quite certain that, among the American general public (and even among many American war gamers), mention of "the Thirty Years War" would draw a blank. (A very few Americans would know what you meant by "the Hundred Years War.")

OTOH, this American would be among the first in line to purchase any AGEod Thirty Years War title (and I'd likely volunteer to be a beta tester, too!).

you would be surprised, recently I traveled to Saxony and people who have absolutely NO interest in history were familiar with names like Wallenstein or Pappenheim. Granted, they werent 100% sure what exactly they did, BUT the fact that the names resonated with them was to me quite encouraging. Then add nations like Sweden and Finland, Denmark, France, Holland, Czech Rep. Austria - all these were direct predecessors of our countries engaged DIRECTLY in the war!

Plus the battlefields ranged from Poland all the way to Spain, Turkey to the Netherlands. I think a well done and approachable game (something AGEOD has proven they can do really well) has very high potential to be sought after by people interested in the conflict.

Bonus1: no competition. when was the last time we had a strategic game about 30YW? Never.

Bonus2: actually it was an era that has a deep inprint in our collective memory: Richelieu, Gustav Adolf, Wallenstein to name a few.

Bonus3: a no front lines supply war a la BOA. so ageod wouldnt have to start from scratch, but they would need to edit the boa engine extensively, definately in the area of supply and area supply deterioration ..

[arsan]

Is that really true, among the European general public? Is the Thirty Years War still high in the European consciousness?

I am quite certain that, among the American general public (and even among many American war gamers), mention of "the Thirty Years War" would draw a blank. (A very few Americans would know what you meant by "the Hundred Years War.")

OTOH, this American would be among the first in line to purchase any AGEod Thirty Years War title (and I'd likely volunteer to be a beta tester, too!).

Hi!
I think a 30YW would be a pretty interesting game done on the AGEOD engine.
But regarding popularity... sorry, but at last on Spain (a participant on the war too) its a quite obscure conflict.
People know the name but little else.
Certainly VERY FAR on popularity from the Napoleonic era wars... and nappy wars are not that popular either
I consider myself a history lover, veteran wargamer and a reasonably cultivated person. But i know very little about the 30YW myself

Regards!

[Halberdier]

Phil: but it could be easily done as a Mod...

Arsan:Creo que para hacer lo que comentas y crear un mapa de hispanoamerica desde cero habría que ser un autentico artista gráfico y ademas muy mañoso con temas de programación.http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?t=9943

Thanks Phil and Arsan for quickly answer , but you know that in another thread (spanish forums i think) you say that there are not editors to make a new map possible. Then creating a new map of south america (as below) is not posible. How can I mod then?. There are any change Phil?. There are any editor to create a new map?
thanks

[arsan]

Hi!

I'm not graphics expert (By far) but i think graphic editors are mostly available with games that use tiles (like the civs for example). NOt the system used on AGEOD games.
To make a sudamerica game you should be an artist and draw a map form start.
What i think exist is a program for the creation of provinces lines, links etc... to be used over the base map.
No easy task i bet...

[Halberdier]

you should be an artist and draw a map form start.

With the basis of previous games, why not?. Im not an artist but in the link you can see a map created by me for Panzer general2 years ago: http://www.gilestiel.eu/MapFinder/images/real/346.jpg

I can use the previous graphics of AGEOD games to create a new graphic...but without a Map editor...what can I do?, how can I make the new graphic playable?

[PhilThib]

No need to be an artist to do the game...we can start with a rough map cut, and then prepare a game map like we all did our own little "boardgames" before...it will look amateur (more or less) but could be more than enough to create a viable game prototype...and once we have this, doing nice graphics is just a matter of time...

Doing a nice map is not a problem: it takes 2-3 weeks, a good artist and a little money...we can do this...

The real "problem" is to create the DB for units, models, setups, events...it's very long (ask arayman !).

Then someone has to be found to draw a mock-up map (just the regions borders + names), it takes 4-5 days to "cut" these into a special tool we have...and then you have a map....

[Halberdier]

Phil:The real "problem" is to create the DB...it's very long (ask arayman !).

Thank you very much for your support Phil. I will ask to arayman how to do the DB.

[Duckman]

Hi!
I think a 30YW would be a pretty interesting game done on the AGEOD engine.
But regarding popularity... sorry, but at last on Spain (a participant on the war too) its a quite obscure conflict.
People know the name but little else.
Certainly VERY FAR on popularity from the Napoleonic era wars... and nappy wars are not that popular either
I consider myself a history lover, veteran wargamer and a reasonably cultivated person. But i know very little about the 30YW myself

Regards!

im not saying its #1 conflict in people's minds, BUT i think there could be a nice niche for such a title. the fact that you had contestants from all of europe, with a properly designed scenarios, the game could be ahuge pull for historical wargamers from all across Europe! and hardcore players from North America.

and i recommend for you to read up on the 30 years war its like a historical drama with countries flipping sides. just amazing! definately i recommend to read up on Albrecht Wallenstein:

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albrecht_von_Wallenstein

[arsan]

Hi Duckman!

Do yo have any good books on the subject to recommend? (available in english or Spanish)
A general one to start, as i know nearly zero about it.
Regards

[Strategy]

arsan,

I am a bit surprised that you are unfamiliar with the thirty years war. But perhaps it is because you don't think of it in that context. For Spain, after all, the Thirty Years War was mainly just a sideshow of the Eighty Years War (1568 - 1648), i.e., the Dutch Rebellion.

Of course, it may not be such an interesting period in Spain because it - in many ways - represents the fall of the Spanish superpower. After the 30YW and the attendant war with France that ended with the Treaty of the Pyrenees (1659), the power of Habsburg Spain was broken.

But the period does contain some most fascinating historical "Spanish" characters; e.g., the General Spinola (actually Italian, but heh...), THE Cardinal Infante, the Infanta Isabella, etc. And it's also the glory days/twilight of the Spanish tercios that had dominated Europe for almost a century.

If I get the time, some day, it's a period I would certainly consider for a game. Lots of interesting possibilities.

[arsan]

arsan,

I am a bit surprised that you are unfamiliar with the thirty years war. But perhaps it is because you don't think of it in that context. For Spain, after all, the Thirty Years War was mainly just a sideshow of the Eighty Years War (1568 - 1648), i.e., the Dutch Rebellion.

Of course, it may not be such an interesting period in Spain because it - in many ways - represents the fall of the Spanish superpower. After the 30YW and the attendant war with France that ended with the Treaty of the Pyrenees (1659), the power of Habsburg Spain was broken.

But the period does contain some most fascinating historical "Spanish" characters; e.g., the General Spinola (actually Italian, but heh...), THE Cardinal Infante, the Infanta Isabella, etc. And it's also the glory days/twilight of the Spanish tercios that had dominated Europe for almost a century.

If I get the time, some day, it's a period I would certainly consider for a game. Lots of interesting possibilities.

Hi Strategy

Yes i remember some of that vaguely from what i studied at school but its mainly names, treaties, territories lost or won...
But hardly a detailed picture of all the complicated affair
About the "mighty" Tercios, around here we prefer to remember Pavia better than Rocroi
After asking Duckman for book recommendations i searched a little on amazon and found this one which looks very good
http://www.amazon.com/Thirty-Years-Review-Books-Classics/dp/1590171462/ref=si3_rdr_bb_product
And very cheap to!
I have already added it to my wish list!
Cheers!

[Duckman]

unfortunately Arsan, I dont know of any Wallenstein or 30YW books in either English or SPanish to recommend I lived in Prague for the past year and I picked up a nice 600 page biography of Wallenstein, but unfortunately its in Czech and I bought it in an used book store, so I doubt its (even in the unlikely event you speak Czech) available.. the other books on the 30YW that ive read are in Slovak and one in German.

But there should be a lot of books on the topic, since it is a fascinating conflict with many grand characters to make it almost movie-like the good, the bad and the ugly!

[arsan]

Yes, my czech is nearly as bad as my slovak... and both are on par with my german

Don't worry. I think i will get the amazon one i posted above.
You will be guilty to add another big book to my looooong list of book to read
So many things to do and so little time...
Regards

[Strategy]

The book you do link to is supposed to be rather good (I got it recommended at some time). Haven't read it myself yet, though. This is a pretty good on-line history on the conflict.

[Jojo le Gouffy]

arsan, j'ai crû comprndre que tu lisais le français.
Il y a un petit livre sur la geurre de Trente ans
La guerre de Trente Ans de Heny Bogdan collection Tempus n° 118
Si cela peut te rassurer cela fait un an qu'il est sur une étagère et que je n'ai pas trouvé le temps de le lire

[marcusjm]

You guys forgot that the English Civil War was only one aspect. Bring in the Irish Civil War as well and you will see the interest increase.

You guys should try living in Belfast as I did, they would make you believe that these events happened yesterday . Try mentioning the name Cromwell in the wrong place in the wrong manner and you'll see what I mean.

There are large re-enactments of all these battles taking place every year so the interest isn't exactly small. Hell, these wars were a key factor in the large emigration numbers to America.

Nevertheless there is hope, there is a very interesting MTW2 covering these wars being constructed, It's one of the most active threads in twcente so I doubt it's not interesting.

Need I remind everyone here that EU is one the better selling strategy games in recent years? Hardly obscure topics.

[Stwa]

You guys forgot that the English Civil War was only one aspect. Bring in the Irish Civil War as well and you will see the interest increase.

You guys should try living in Belfast as I did, they would make you believe that these events happened yesterday . Try mentioning the name Cromwell in the wrong place in the wrong manner and you'll see what I mean.

There are large re-enactments of all these battles taking place every year so the interest isn't exactly small. Hell, these wars were a key factor in the large emigration numbers to America.

Nevertheless there is hope, there is a very interesting MTW2 covering these wars being constructed, It's one of the most active threads in twcente so I doubt it's not interesting.

Need I remind everyone here that EU is one the better selling strategy games in recent years? Hardly obscure topics.

OK, pretty good points...

Then I might recommend the Grand Alliance period 1688-1697. This would involve most of NW Europe, Ireland included, of course. It would be a great subject for the AGE engine, but I am thinking of the AGE engine in original BoA form. This is basically France against everyone else.

[marcusjm]

That would be really interesting.

I would actually turn this entire question around. People keep saying "there is no interest". How do they know? I haven't seen any market research into this. Maybe the entire fault with wargaming is that developers keep designing the same old tired battles every time, all directed at the same small target group. Just look at the huge variety in board gaming compared to computer wargaming. It's pitiful to see.

The interest for this era in UK is quite big, I recently visited Edinburgh, the entire city is one big reminder of this era .

AGEOD has previously gone against this trend though. I applaud them for trying American Revolution, WW1, Imperial Age etc. Why stop there .

Need I remind everyone that the best selling PC game in UK, is a text based strategy game?(well mostly at least): It's called Football Manager.

[PhilThib]

I concurr, I believe there is a market for this...

It's not so complex to make a strategy game on the ECW (extending to Ireland too)...we have all the tools for it, the proper engine...we just lack the serious project manager and volunteer to do it...

None of us has time to undertake it, but I have plenty of sources, knowledge, data, tools, and even artworks...

I would gladly help a project manager who, like Aryaman and his punic mod, has the will to achieve something... but I won't do it myself, I just don't have the time...and we have more important projects already underway to complete first...

Doing this game will need 6 months.... ask Aryaman for impressions and advice

[berto]

I would actually turn this entire question around. People keep saying "there is no interest". How do they know?

Indeed (and referring to a different era of British history), who would have thought there is interest in the (then) obscure 13th Century Scottish patriot William Wallace sufficient to justify making a major film about him (Braveheart)?

Hollywood and the rest of the international film industry, if they make historical movies at all, they keep on making movies on the same old same old (Queen Elizabeth, Henry VIII, Joan of Arc, etc.). There are so many other fascinating and compelling stories to tell from across the centuries (and outside of Europe, too, for that matter).

There might be many other interesting and perhaps even compelling conflicts off the beaten path in computer war gaming, too.

With a well-done movie--or game?--interest can be aroused!

[arsan]

Need I remind everyone that the best selling PC game in UK, is a text based strategy game?(well mostly at least): It's called Football Manager.

Football... hardly an obscure subject for a game...

[jastaV]

I understand and share Duckman's enthusiasm for a 30 Years War project, as I can justify interest for a British Civil War.
Indeed European history can offer a mess of subjects for AGEod engine games.

Anyawy I think it's in AGEod interst to go after titles of world wide interest, expecially titles scoring high on U.S. market.
Of course, I have a bit of disappointment when saying all that, (I'm very intersted in many conflicts from Old Europe), but AACW demonstrated U.S. customers can be important and decisive for a title succes.

NCP can then be a good starting point for 3rd party projects regarding european history, as aryaman's Punic Wars Project denmostrate!

[marcusjm]

Football... hardly an obscure subject for a game...

You are correct Sir but it's also true that many buy FM2008 for the strategic depht rather than their love for Footie.

I am a developer but not game developer, I would be interesting in volunteering for data work and testing though. Might lear something in the process .

Does this mean that we could get the engine at our disposal if we could find a way to adapt it to these conditions?

I once asked Bernard Cornwell whether he would do ECW but he said he needed to educate himself more on the subject first.

----
JastaV: The EU series has sold far far more so I don't see the grounds for this argument. Germany is after all the Worlds 2nd largest market and probably no 1 when it comes to strategy games. I mean, they sell garbage truck sims down there .

[jastaV]

JastaV: The EU series has sold far far more so I don't see the grounds for this argument. Germany is after all the Worlds 2nd largest market and probably no 1 when it comes to strategy games. I mean, they sell garbage truck sims down there .

EU = Europa Univeralis ?
Well, it was a great series for that time!
Unfortunately the only thing EU and AGEod games share is ThilPhib mind behind their development......

Interesting your note as regard German market: I always thought U.S.A. was leading, just because of language and numbers!

BTW, I'll be pleased to try any new subject games, and even give my time to 3rd party dev. projects.

[marcusjm]

EU by Paradox outsold just about any Civil War game I can think of so that would be a good reason to continue investigating those periods. Personally I wouldn't mind a straight port of the boardgame, I always prefered turn based to real time.

As for sales I think it's all about platforms. I think for PC gaming EU is largest but for consoles it's probably US then Japan. But for overall sales Germany is 2nd after USA. After that I suspect UK and maybe France.

But. In the end it's not so much about themes but marketing. If you can get the message out and create a quality game you can do any period and sell good.

[Alzate]

We have considered the subject, but it can only be done as a side-project as we would surely lose money (that we don't have ) if we were doing it otherwise. Definitively an interesting subject though. The AGE engine is versatile enough to allow us to do that, I confirm.

i am sure you have considered, maybe the ECW could be a scenario of a "30 Years wars" game, including campaigns that could be extended form the Italian wars in the early 1500s to Louis XIV without great changes in tactics or economics. there are several 10-20 years campaigns that coudl be thought of.
early mdoenr in europe it is a period full of wars, religion and changing alliances, involving all countries in europe from portugal to russia and turkey
it would require only an european map, similar to the Napoleonic one.
(it could be even an expansion of NCP)

i would expect that the subject "the Thirty Years Wars" to be attractive as the EUI-II-III has shown (and the focus is slighty different).

just my 5 cents