SUPPLY (How are those tracks working out for you?)

[Stauffenberg]

Some initial thoughts and impressions.

I am finding the supply dynamics in TYW to be the most incisive delimiter of movement and battle (along with winter weather and mud). Supply is generated locally every month, and is used locally with any excess simply lost. Depots, unlike other titles using this game system, cannot store supplies beyond the month they appear: they simply enhance the amount that town or city can generate that month. Only supply carts can store supply as such. I think I have that right at this early stage in playing this.

In playing out the Bohemian campaign I quickly discovered how this changes things. With a Protestant army besieging Brunn for months into the winter, and with unlucky fort breaching rolls, the supplies were used up and the empty carts were sent to Budweiss. Unfortunately I had a large army there as well and did not notice it was using up almost all supply generated every month--I had built a depot in Budweiss and was waiting hopefully for supplies to appear, nicely stored. They never did and the supply carts had to be finally sent to Prague, ox-teams slogging through the mud. Welcome to a world of tracks, not even roads: to get from Frankfurt to Mannheim you take a track. Da Vinci had invented the wooden trestle bridge in the 16th c. but railroads (which would rely on them extensively) were far in the future.

In looking to an extended Campaign Game I would anticipate that the movement of these supply carts long distances over tracks would be a prime cavalry raid target necessitating rather large accompanying ground troops to protect them...

Other preliminary thoughts:

I would question the arbitrary limit of 4 supply carts for the Bohemians but the line had to be drawn somewhere I suppose--perhaps it is limited by large city size?

I also wondered about riverine movement in this age--possible downstream movement of troops on barges? Also river ports with their own supply enhancement? Supply cart units movable by river? This is a totally new period for me but surely the Rhine at least had some important effects on troop movement and supplies.

So far I am impressed with TYW. 1 month turns with enhanced terrain and supply dynamics makes for a different game indeed; 30 years of game play a fascinating intrigue in itself.

[Durk]

Yes indeed, think of the Bertolt Brecht play Mother Courage and Her Children, while not precisely historical, a good window into the supply issues of this time. I too find supply challenging, but spot on.

[HeinzHarald]

In looking to an extended Campaign Game I would anticipate that the movement of these supply carts long distances over tracks would be a prime cavalry raid target necessitating rather large accompanying ground troops to protect them...

Indeed. In fact I've found the AI to be quite good at cavalry raids playing the Bohemian scenario (me playing the protestants).

[Stauffenberg]

Yes indeed, think of the Bertolt Brecht play Mother Courage and Her Children, while not precisely historical, a good window into the supply issues of this time. I too find supply challenging, but spot on.

I was imagining Burnside's 'Mud March' but your reference to Brecht's play tops that. Lacking some sort of "Ox-cart Driver Guild" they must have been composed of drivers who offered their services and took their chances like Mother Courage, or else were impressed by each army as needed.

The stalwarts in my Bohemian campaign "force-marched" their ox-teams through the mud to arrive in Prague a day early. They loaded up, headed back down the same track in the mud and were promptly ambushed by an Imperial Stozzisch cavalry unit. The besieging army at Brunn was cut off by a nice AI move of a Catholic army in it's rear and, completely out of basic SC's, was quickly decimated and pulverized. How Not to Conduct a Winter Campaign Example #1.

The nice lesson learned in this is that while armies moved to seek out and engage enemy armies, their first order of the day was to grab as much local supply as possible and protect their supply carts to the rear.

Digging around for info on this in the Thirty Years War yielded a concise little article on this:

Once in enemy territory, however, like every army after them until the very modern age, armies lived mostly off the land and captured enemy stores. This practice explains the penchant of armies to attack cities even when it made little tactical sense. A review of Gustav Adolphus' route of march during the Thirty Years War (1618-48) shows precisely the same propensity for exactly the same reasons. Finally, armies often timed campaigns to take maximum advantage of the seasons to ensure an adequate food supply in captured enemy areas. Taken together, the logistics capabilities of ancient armies were excellent, often managing staggering feats of supply that only rarely were duplicated by armies before the 19th century.

[RIGHT]http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/gabrmetz/gabr000a.htm[/RIGHT]

[Stauffenberg]

Indeed. In fact I've found the AI to be quite good at cavalry raids playing the Bohemian scenario (me playing the protestants).

Yes. See my response to Durk above.

[pantsukki]

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/gabrmetz/gabr000a.htm

You quoted from the article "Once in enemy territory, however, like every army after them until the very modern age, armies lived mostly off the land and captured enemy stores. This practice explains the penchant of armies to attack cities even when it made little tactical sense".

That's why it's A) a little unfortunate that taking cities (or even achieving breaches) seems to take quite a long time, and B) there aren't that many cities on the map.

[Stauffenberg]

You quoted from the article "Once in enemy territory, however, like every army after them until the very modern age, armies lived mostly off the land and captured enemy stores. This practice explains the penchant of armies to attack cities even when it made little tactical sense".

That's why it's A) a little unfortunate that taking cities (or even achieving breaches) seems to take quite a long time, and B) there aren't that many cities on the map.

Yes, and while there is the looting function, perhaps giving the side capturing a city, X number of full supply carts (depending on city size) would be a nice tweak.

I am starting to think that the lowly ox-powered supply cart may be the most important unit in the game.

[enf91]

I forget who it was who said, "Amateurs study tactics; professionals study logistics."

[ess1]

@stauffenburg: "The stalwarts in my Bohemian campaign "force-marched" their ox-teams through the mud..."

I do not have TYW (probably will purchase for pbem) but surely you cannot 'force march' oxen, especially through mud?
I think this is unrealistic and should be amended. Monthly turns should preclude this even in good weather.

Non player off the green

[Stauffenberg]

@stauffenburg: "The stalwarts in my Bohemian campaign "force-marched" their ox-teams through the mud..."

I do not have TYW (probably will purchase for pbem) but surely you cannot 'force march' oxen, especially through mud?
I think this is unrealistic and should be amended. Monthly turns should preclude this even in good weather.

Non player off the green

Supply carts can be force-marched just like any other land unit, and while driving oxen through the mud like that may be inhumane, I put it that way mostly for humorous effect.

[Konrad von Richtmark]

Having played RoP with its advanced supply system, I've kind of come to appreciate the simple local supply of TYW more. TYW still allows you a certain amount of supply transportation, but you have to manually detach the supply wagons and use them to fetch the stuff. Thus, you can operate beyond the constraints imposed by the largely static supply map, but have to pay a cost in commitment of resources to do so, which also limits the extent to which you can do it.

It would be good though if supply wagons could be used more actively for it, such as gather up all the surplus supply that wasn't distributed to units on day 1, from all the regions it moves through. As it is, you need a minimum of two turns to make a supply run: One to get from your stack to a supply source, and another to get back with the filled wagons, and even then, when plotting the order to move back, you haven't yet received the supplies of the upcoming turn, but will have to rely on your understanding of the game system to know whether they will get any.

But yeah, the lowly ox-powered supply cart is the most powerful unit in the game. I just managed to get Tilly's 800-power stack to starve and surrender by bottling it up in a city, and playing a game of supply chicken. A game I won since there was a decently supply-producing city 2 steps away which my supply carts were able to fetch supply from.

[Stauffenberg]

But yeah, the lowly ox-powered supply cart is the most powerful unit in the game. I just managed to get Tilly's 800-power stack to starve and surrender by bottling it up in a city, and playing a game of supply chicken. A game I won since there was a decently supply-producing city 2 steps away which my supply carts were able to fetch supply from.

"...a game of supply chicken" nicely sums things up. To that you can add "a game of siege chicken" as it will come down to a good die-roll with the master gunner or landmine card as to whether your besieging army can take down a location quickly or ends up stuck there for months, perhaps an entire season. In one pbem I have going both main armies were besieging--my Prots at Brunn and HRE at Prague itself. Last turn the HRE blinked first and gave up on Prague, probably due to supply concerns and the approaching Fall rasputitsa where armies will be slogging in the mud. I'm sticking it out at Brunn as I need to get the Hungarians on, trying to gauge how long I can survive off the supply carts I have.

The complete lack of a supply grid takes some getting used to. I am finding it a bit overly-severe in ways and suspect they may tweak things in a future patch. Supply carts and the season pretty much determine what is possible, and what is not.

[dinsdale]

I like the 'simple' supply rules of this and BOA, they make more sense for the era. However, I am not a fan of being able to manually create supply networks with carts, it feels like gaming the system and rewards micro-management in a way that is counter to everything else about the game.

I've always been hesitant to do it, I never see the AI do it.

[Philo32b]

By sacrificing two supply carts you can build a depot in any province. It can be helpful to put a couple of these in between the bigger, already-existing depots to help keep your troops supply carts from emptying as they move towards (or in winter, away) from the enemy's territory. The game seems to give enough supply carts to use some of them in this way profitably.

[arsan]

In other games wagons used to create a depot are added back to the recruitment pool inmediatelly. So as long as you have resources to recruit them again you will not get short of wagons.
I bet it,s the same on TYW.

[Boomer]

So I take it that all of these supply problems are in current games with easy supply mode OFF? Does turning on the easy supply option alleviate these problems at all?

[Baris]

Building high level depots can be gamey but challenge can be transporting built items to the front. Simple supply rule fits perfectly well in 30 days a turn.

[Konrad von Richtmark]

I concur with the propriety of the simple supply system. If even a master organizer like Gustavus had to come to the supply rather than make the supply come to him, it was probably inevitable given the logistical constraints of the time.

I agree though with the suggestion that there should be some amount of supply stockpiling in cities, since that's where agricultural surpluses and military manufactures would end up anyway. Maybe make it so that every city has, for all intents and purposes, one stationary supply wagon which belongs to whoever controls the city? It would be the first supply source to be consumed from whenever an army is present, and the last source to be replenished from monthly supply production. Thus, armies that capture cities would get temporary supply relief, unless they won the siege by starving out the defenders.

[elxaime]

The game seems to give enough supply carts to use some of them in this way profitably.

Actually, there seems a force pool issue here, at least with Protestants in campaign. They get to build only 1 new Protestant supply cart and have to live off that and the other existing supply carts for years. Forget about building new Protestant depots, you barely have enough supply carts to keep one with each field force.

Maybe it is working as designed? If so, it seems strange as it really hampers the Protestants, especially when the theater widens.

[Philo32b]

Actually, there seems a force pool issue here, at least with Protestants in campaign. They get to build only 1 new Protestant supply cart and have to live off that and the other existing supply carts for years. Forget about building new Protestant depots, you barely have enough supply carts to keep one with each field force.

Yes, I have played only the Catholics in the GC, so I was ignorant of the Protestants' lack of supply carts. The Catholics get loads of them.

[Charles]

I have only started playing the game myself, but it may be too early to talk about making supply easier until we are more familiar with the game.

TYW uses the same "simple" supply system as AJE and from what I see so far supply levels seem similar. In AJE, it was possible to keep relatively large armies supplied as long as you planned properly.

[Stauffenberg]

Actually, there seems a force pool issue here, at least with Protestants in campaign. They get to build only 1 new Protestant supply cart and have to live off that and the other existing supply carts for years. Forget about building new Protestant depots, you barely have enough supply carts to keep one with each field force.

Maybe it is working as designed? If so, it seems strange as it really hampers the Protestants, especially when the theater widens.

Actually, if I am not mistaken, the PROTS have 4 supply carts to HRE 2 at the outset which considerably boosts their offensive/siege capabilities considerably in the opening game. It seems you can play fast and loose with small raiding cavalry units, but your foot-sloggers need careful supply maintenance. It's not a nice feeling to be slogging in the mud in November with 3 supply carts all in the red...

[Stauffenberg]

Actually, there seems a force pool issue here, at least with Protestants in campaign. They get to build only 1 new Protestant supply cart and have to live off that and the other existing supply carts for years. Forget about building new Protestant depots, you barely have enough supply carts to keep one with each field force.

Maybe it is working as designed? If so, it seems strange as it really hampers the Protestants, especially when the theater widens.

I don't think this is correct. You can rebuild new supply carts when you use them up for depots--the problem is getting enough money to do it with when you want to spend it on other options. Mind you I am only 2 years into a couple of pbems at this point. On the Catholic side you can build HRE or Bavarian carts early on when the Bavarians under Tilly appear.

[Charles]

supply is very tight, it seems more stingy than in AJE.

Playing the Bohemian revolt as HRE vs AI. July 1621, I have built pretty much every unit available and have a max of 3 supply carts, but if I concentrate all the armies into a large stack, it is difficult to keep it supplied except around Vienna which has 35-37 sc per turn. Every other friendly area is 3-7.

I am guessing the best way to maximise supplies is to use smaller stacks and/or build depots?

[Konrad von Richtmark]

About supply carts, also note that if you get new supply carts by event, that can take you over your force pool limit for them. In that case, you won't be able to rebuild them if you use them for depots, not until you've actually ended up below your force limit. Meaning that building depots may not be worth it.