Offworlder
Brigadier General
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Ancillary troops moving around the map

Sun Mar 13, 2016 3:24 pm

Is there a way to stop the constant trail of artillery brigades, HQ units, supply units and lonely cavalry units all over the map? I've seen the French in the Caucasus, the Russians and Austrians all over Germany and so on. It simply doesn't make sense. All the ancillary forces just separate from their corps and go all over the map. Sometimes there is an accumulation of such units into a stack.

So is there a way to stop this?

veji1
AGEod Guard of Honor
Posts: 1271
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Sun Mar 13, 2016 5:27 pm

Offworlder wrote:Is there a way to stop the constant trail of artillery brigades, HQ units, supply units and lonely cavalry units all over the map? I've seen the French in the Caucasus, the Russians and Austrians all over Germany and so on. It simply doesn't make sense. All the ancillary forces just separate from their corps and go all over the map. Sometimes there is an accumulation of such units into a stack.

So is there a way to stop this?


I don't know, there are several theories (memory leak or just messy orders) but clearly it doesn't work...

tony luke
Corporal
Posts: 42
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Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:22 am

Yes, We all really wish they would fix this rubbish. My hope is that the AGEOD team rarely stop trying so I will keep the faith for now.

Cheers,

AKL

Offworlder
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Mon Mar 14, 2016 8:15 am

The point is why does the AI continuously break down its forces in such a manner that makes them vulnerable? In no other Ageod game does it do so. Admittedly, it does enjoy raiding a bit too much but this time round, its dismantling even organised forces. My impression is that the AI sort of groups units of the same speed together and launches them headlong on the road, not necessarily against an enemy (sometimes I see Prussian forces in Oldenburg and they're not even at war).Then the slower units - divisions mostly, come into sight....

oho
Corporal
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Mon Mar 14, 2016 9:42 am

Do you all use the latest beta-patch?

veji1
AGEod Guard of Honor
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Mon Mar 14, 2016 10:14 am

Offworlder wrote:The point is why does the AI continuously break down its forces in such a manner that makes them vulnerable? In no other Ageod game does it do so. Admittedly, it does enjoy raiding a bit too much but this time round, its dismantling even organised forces. My impression is that the AI sort of groups units of the same speed together and launches them headlong on the road, not necessarily against an enemy (sometimes I see Prussian forces in Oldenburg and they're not even at war).Then the slower units - divisions mostly, come into sight....


Beyond those travelling artys and HQs, force composition is a big issue and my fear is that it will make the game unplayable after a while : Even in AACW it had a hard time making up its forces but at least it made big bundles and plowed forward with them.

In the AGEOD games before WON I have always found that when the AI is given pre-composed forces, it uses them pretty well. The problem is how to build those forces and my fear is that as the game goes along it will become a bigger and bigger problem. This is why I have advocated making events after each peace + F4 army reforms to help the AI restructure its force :
- For example after Pressburg when Austrian forces have been utterly crushed, there should be an event giving Austria a fixed cadre of an army (old model / pre reform so no corps) that then needs to be filled with replacements, rather than having Austria have to buy many many new units which it will never manage to do as the AI. Those troops could be fixed for a whole year for example and really slowly fill out. Same for Prussia or Russia.
- After a country enacts army reforms it shouldn't just be given the right to build corps and more armies and units, but be given a new army structure right there with incorporation of its various units into new ones + new cadres that need to be filled out.

Otherwise solo play is going to be a massive and endless mop up operation after a while with ennemy force composition being a spineless jumbo of units.

This is why in AACW playing the 1862 or 1863 scenarios as the CSA were the most satisfying because the USA AI had strong well composed to play with, whereas the 1861 scenarios forced the AI to build its own forces to a big extent and it never quite managed to do it;

This isn't to knock the AI, building well composed forces is a very hard process, this is why the AI should be assisted via events.

tony luke
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Mon Mar 14, 2016 1:07 pm

Veji1, I agree entirely, you are 100% on target.

Offworlder
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Mon Mar 14, 2016 4:07 pm

True the AI requires help. Now I've just given up on a campaign as the English in 1805 coz the AI did pretty ridiculous things like sending the completely disorganised Grande Armee to Italy etc portions of which allowed themselves to be beaten by the Neapolitan army! Instead of maintaining cohesion, the AI just fritters its army away. Veji1 is right when he says that its turning into a mop up operation. Is there a way to make army and corps stacks impossible to break down for the AI so that we don't end up with a flotsam of an army to deal with?

vicberg
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Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:18 am

Mon Mar 14, 2016 4:25 pm

The only way to do this would be to create event scripts to reorganize the armies. The problem with event scripts is that they are somewhat hardwired, so it would be difficult to do in conjunction with AI building.

It might be possible to forgo AI building all together and have scripts build Corps and reduce money/conscript/war supplies in conjunction. AI doesn't build replacements either which is why there's events to give AI replacements. So, the two could be combined into scripts that build and replace. This might make the AI more challenging. There's not much that can be done via scripts concerning cohesion, etc...

veji1
AGEod Guard of Honor
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Mon Mar 14, 2016 6:28 pm

To be perfectly honest, I have played close to 400 turns between december and mid february, which is a respectable amount considering work, family life and well turn processing times... I went on holiday on february 19 and haven't touched the game since.

I probably won't for a while to be honest : Why play again the first year and half and find myself again in an endless mop up operation of Austrians and Prussians without having yet reached the Spanish Ulcer situation, with arty traveling around, Bavaria being incessantly dowed, the Duchy of Warsaw appearing or not for no reason, being neutral (or not), with the RHC appearing as a neutral and having no leverage whatsoever on my various allies, etc..

I honestly am going to play with CW2 again probably for a while. I hope this game does well enough to keep the energy of the developper focused on making it better so that it eventually becomes enjoyable as a game, because really for those 400 turns what I enjoyed was the chrome, looking at the units and generals and a few good surprises where suddenly enough austrians and russians are bundled together that I get what feels like a real battle...

Keep up the work guys, I really want to enjoy this game when I open it again !

zooter
Captain
Posts: 150
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:27 pm

Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:26 pm

I agree, the game is frustrating. I'm waiting for the next public patch or Vice burg's mod, which is about to be listed.

vicberg
AGEod Grognard
Posts: 968
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:18 am

Thu Mar 17, 2016 2:57 pm

Be aware that even in my mod, troops showing up all over the place isn't fixed. In my single player game, Spain has placed a couple of coastal batteries in Paris and the 1806 Generals Spawn created around 6 Spanish leaders in Paris rather than Spain. I just noticed this.

I checked the script that creates Spanish generals and I'm wondering if the commands, some of which I've never seen, have a bug

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Pocus
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Thu Mar 17, 2016 4:38 pm

Believe me, the supports troops have received attention, AI wise, so they are not so much dispersed, but somehow there are always some moving where they should not.
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Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."

BruceASinger@gmail.com
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Fri Mar 18, 2016 2:32 am

Pocus wrote:Believe me, the supports troops have received attention, AI wise, so they are not so much dispersed, but somehow there are always some moving where they should not.


It is not the AI.

The AI does not put Russian Depots in Swizterland, French Costal batteries in the middle of Hesse, or Russain river boats on the Seine.

Even if the AI ordered them to go there, the rate of movement of the units would not allow them to get there in the amount of time they have. And I was playing the French when the French Costal battery showed up in Hesse as well as 5 other units. And I am sure I never ordered any of those units to go into Hesse.

You will never fix the problem if you only work on the AI.

veji1
AGEod Guard of Honor
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Fri Mar 18, 2016 11:10 am

BruceASinger@gmail.com wrote:It is not the AI.

The AI does not put Russian Depots in Swizterland, French Costal batteries in the middle of Hesse, or Russain river boats on the Seine.

Even if the AI ordered them to go there, the rate of movement of the units would not allow them to get there in the amount of time they have. And I was playing the French when the French Costal battery showed up in Hesse as well as 5 other units. And I am sure I never ordered any of those units to go into Hesse.

You will never fix the problem if you only work on the AI.



It never happened to units from my country, but I think he is on to something : I only remember once seeing a spanish cav unit moving through my country side, and that was long ago, but in my last game spanish coastal arties still popped up in Paris ! so there might still be lingering AI issues, but also engine/memory/teleport problems...

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fred zeppelin
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Fri Mar 18, 2016 10:47 pm

BruceASinger@gmail.com wrote:It is not the AI.

The AI does not put Russian Depots in Swizterland, French Costal batteries in the middle of Hesse, or Russain river boats on the Seine.

Even if the AI ordered them to go there, the rate of movement of the units would not allow them to get there in the amount of time they have. And I was playing the French when the French Costal battery showed up in Hesse as well as 5 other units. And I am sure I never ordered any of those units to go into Hesse.

You will never fix the problem if you only work on the AI.


Agreed. It's clearly not the AI. They couldn't end up where they do under AI control. They're just appearing. Probably some sort of bug buried in the code.

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Pocus
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Location: Lyon (France)

Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:30 am

I would need a precise situation. Something where you spot a unit appears and also the turn before. And please no long battle during this turn, it just kills all debugging possibility to have a 10 mn string of battles each time I'll rerun the turn to figure out the problem (and debugging can implies running the turn more than a dozen time!)
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Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."

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