I'd like to know before I need to build a ton more scripts to fix another part of the game.
I'm diving into the production system and googling approximate army strengths at start of war 1805 to 1812, the height of the French army, to get an idea of how much production is needed to get there, taking into account replacements.
And what did I find. In your game, Britain starts with an army that's almost 3/4 the size of France in 1805. They have much more money (almost 10x) and get at least 30 more war supplies than the French each month. The French start with 210,000 troops in 1805 and almost quadrupled their army by 1812. The British had a total of 250,000 (8 corp) by 1813. So the math isn't adding up here at all.
Britain is starting with a force, according to your own history reports, 3/4 the size of France. You've given them higher overall production than France and though historically, their army was very small and made 250k by 1813, in your game, the British will be roughly equivalent to the French by 1812-1813, when they were in reality, about 1/3 the size of the French.
What were you thinking? Were you thinking?
EDIT: I found this, so the starting size of the British Army makes sense. Now the production?
The British Army in 1805, had approximately 161,000 Regulars, which were backed by a 90,000 man militia force. On 1 January 1805, these forces included:
Cavalry
20,316
Artillery and Engineers
17,109
Infantry
124,531
Militia
89,809
That's what I first thought when I loaded army comparision screen and found out how British land army is so close to the French, and how British fleet is so much more powerful than combined French and Spanish fleet. Most of the British forces are locked in Home defense though.
Where I find the French have more potential is conscripting power via draft cards. The British will never be able to buff up its military without conscripts. So, its full coffers of money are best served financing other powers of Europe who have ample conscripts, but no funds. That was general premise of the game.
Where I find the French have more potential is conscripting power via draft cards. The British will never be able to buff up its military without conscripts. So, its full coffers of money are best served financing other powers of Europe who have ample conscripts, but no funds. That was general premise of the game.
Thre brits's force should mainly be locked in the home islands and the colonies. Only a minute portion of it should be available to go to Europe in 1805 and this is the part that the player can grow. I haven't played the british side but basically the player's problem should be that all the forces he wants to use fighting in Europe, he has to build (more or less). He shouldn't be able to land more than say 20 000 men in France in 1805 even mustering all his got, which would get him fairly quickly smashed by the french levies in case of invasion.
At least that is how I understand it, but I suppose it could be play tested.
The first few years playing the Brits should be about denying the french the opportunity to regroup their fleets and basically giving money to other powers to fight on behalf of them. You might try a coup de main, but if you end up losing your few soldiers who can fight abroad, too bad...
At least that is how I understand it, but I suppose it could be play tested.
The first few years playing the Brits should be about denying the french the opportunity to regroup their fleets and basically giving money to other powers to fight on behalf of them. You might try a coup de main, but if you end up losing your few soldiers who can fight abroad, too bad...
Pocus wrote:Was this wording necessary?
Now... I may be needing xanax as somebody around here told me... and I may have been lurking instead of screaming how my game is still frozen - because it is -... but was releasing a broken mess of a game months before it is finished necessary? Was taking money from said "product" necessary? Do we even have to debate anything here when a user is fixing your game? Ban me, I dont care. Please do go on. As a customer I will make sure that many other people will know your behaviour, with anything at disposal of a consumer.
By the way you didnt even got the date of the release of the patch right. Just saying.
Sirlion wrote:Now... I may be needing xanax as somebody around here told me... and I may have been lurking instead of screaming how my game is still frozen - because it is -... but was releasing a broken mess of a game months before it is finished necessary? Was taking money from said "product" necessary? Do we even have to debate anything here when a user is fixing your game? Ban me, I dont care. Please do go on. As a customer I will make sure that many other people will know your behaviour, with anything at disposal of a consumer.
By the way you didnt even got the date of the release of the patch right. Just saying.
Relax Sirlion, we have told the devs what we think, the question now is whether we can improve the game to a good level, Vicber, Pocus or you and me, we are all allowed to get testy sometimes.
LOL, and yes, Xanax.
No wording wasn't necessary. A moment of frustration, apologies. Was trying to figure out production and correlate across 10 years of game play and saw another potential issue requiring changes to either the structures or to the model purchase prices.
Thanks Ace, yes, conscripts will be a limiting factor for Britain. France gets 1200 per draft and Britain 300.
Every month Britain gets 100 conscripts from base and 2 drafts cards every 2 months = 800 every 2 months. Assuming they aren't battling constantly requiring replacements, that's 4800 conscripts for a year. In 8 years, 38000 conscripts. If Britain were roughly historical and committed tiny amounts of troops to Europe and did virtually nothing, if costs around 1500 conscripts for a normal inf div. That's 25 divisions 8 years. At 3 divisions per corp plus a horse div (following Nappy model), 4 more corp, plus goodies. That's a 120,000 increase by 1813, roughly historical and good enough. France will have 16 more corp in same period, again roughly historical and good enough. So the key is replacement costs and that is something that's easily adjusted.
Veiji, most British troops are not locked. They are free to go wherever. About 5000 CBT. There's a large militia force that is locked. Hothead? Naaa
Apologies, its working out.
No wording wasn't necessary. A moment of frustration, apologies. Was trying to figure out production and correlate across 10 years of game play and saw another potential issue requiring changes to either the structures or to the model purchase prices.
Thanks Ace, yes, conscripts will be a limiting factor for Britain. France gets 1200 per draft and Britain 300.
Every month Britain gets 100 conscripts from base and 2 drafts cards every 2 months = 800 every 2 months. Assuming they aren't battling constantly requiring replacements, that's 4800 conscripts for a year. In 8 years, 38000 conscripts. If Britain were roughly historical and committed tiny amounts of troops to Europe and did virtually nothing, if costs around 1500 conscripts for a normal inf div. That's 25 divisions 8 years. At 3 divisions per corp plus a horse div (following Nappy model), 4 more corp, plus goodies. That's a 120,000 increase by 1813, roughly historical and good enough. France will have 16 more corp in same period, again roughly historical and good enough. So the key is replacement costs and that is something that's easily adjusted.
Veiji, most British troops are not locked. They are free to go wherever. About 5000 CBT. There's a large militia force that is locked. Hothead? Naaa
Apologies, its working out.
vicberg wrote:LOL, and yes, Xanax.
No wording wasn't necessary. A moment of frustration, apologies. Was trying to figure out production and correlate across 10 years of game play and saw another potential issue requiring changes to either the structures or to the model purchase prices.
Thanks Ace, yes, conscripts will be a limiting factor for Britain. France gets 1200 per draft and Britain 300.
Every month Britain gets 100 conscripts from base and 2 drafts cards every 2 months = 800 every 2 months. Assuming they aren't battling constantly requiring replacements, that's 4800 conscripts for a year. In 8 years, 38000 conscripts. If Britain were roughly historical and committed tiny amounts of troops to Europe and did virtually nothing, if costs around 1500 conscripts for a normal inf div. That's 25 divisions 8 years. At 3 divisions per corp plus a horse div (following Nappy model), 4 more corp, plus goodies. That's a 120,000 increase by 1813, roughly historical and good enough. France will have 16 more corp in same period, again roughly historical and good enough. So the key is replacement costs and that is something that's easily adjusted.
Veiji, most British troops are not locked. They are free to go wherever. About 5000 CBT. There's a large militia force that is locked. Hothead? Naaa
Apologies, its working out.
Hi Vicberg. To me the point the issue is then that Brits should be mostly locked to begin with : the British player should be very very very wary of what could happen if he loses his 20/30/40k of troops who can be moved wherever he wants. I don't know exacly what the rythm should be, but unlocking of british troops should be very slow, most of the "growth" of the projectable british forces coming via builds the player makes (inf divisions, corps, etc...).
Well, the French army is way too big as well, I am working on it.
Vic is just like me when I was working on the mod for the ungodly mess that was War in the Pacific when it came out. I burned myself out of modding for years after that and just started beta-ing War in the West and Op. Torch. Need to have distance or you explode from small game company designers.
Vic you think Philippe is an old fashioned programmer you should see Grigsby, I think he is using Basic still.
Vic is just like me when I was working on the mod for the ungodly mess that was War in the Pacific when it came out. I burned myself out of modding for years after that and just started beta-ing War in the West and Op. Torch. Need to have distance or you explode from small game company designers.
Vic you think Philippe is an old fashioned programmer you should see Grigsby, I think he is using Basic still.
Elting etc, show the 7 French corps and the cavalry reserve with only a bit more than 150,000 men; this game has those units having 187,000 or so men. I wish I knew how many men Britain kept in Ireland during the period. I can tell you exactly how many men Britain kept in India in WW1 and WW2 but in Ireland in 1805, no, of course not.
Some numbers are available for Ireland and elsewhere for 1805 in the Napoleon Series
http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/organization/c_strengths.html
http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/organization/c_strengths.html
Yes, I read through that entire website last night. The eye opener is that for all their paper strength they only were only willing to commit small forces onto the continent. And the big eye opener. They didn't draft. They relied upon volunteers. They lost 20k each year to attrition, so their volunteers had to make up those losses before the army could expand, so the militia were brought into the regular army and volunteers went into the militia.
The other eye opener is that when Nappy went into Russia, 200k worth of troops were foreign (Saxony, Poles, etc.)
The other eye opener is that when Nappy went into Russia, 200k worth of troops were foreign (Saxony, Poles, etc.)
vicberg wrote:Yes, I read through that entire website last night. The eye opener is that for all their paper strength they only were only willing to commit small forces onto the continent. And the big eye opener. They didn't draft. They relied upon volunteers. They lost 20k each year to attrition, so their volunteers had to make up those losses before the army could expand, so the militia were brought into the regular army and volunteers went into the militia.
The other eye opener is that when Nappy went into Russia, 200k worth of troops were foreign (Saxony, Poles, etc.)
I'm in the process of putting together the historic Orders of Battle for all of the minors. For most of them, the word "Vassal" might be more appropriate. Napoleon issued edicts on how many troops they would raise, to be integrated into the French Army. Also, the "loan" of Expeditionary forces should be indefinite, until that minor country "defects" to the Coalition.
Montbrun wrote:I'm in the process of putting together the historic Orders of Battle for all of the minors. For most of them, the word "Vassal" might be more appropriate. Napoleon issued edicts on how many troops they would raise, to be integrated into the French Army. Also, the "loan" of Expeditionary forces should be indefinite, until that minor country "defects" to the Coalition.
Indefinite and really almost automatic : Just give Nassau and all other minors except Bavaria fixed units until say early 1807 to emulate the fact that for the first 2 years ingame France couldn't really draw on those forces, but later in game when those forces become unlocked, the french should be free to incorporate them in their OOB for 1809 like campaigns where they could numerically at least play an important role.
Montbrun wrote:I'm in the process of putting together the historic Orders of Battle for all of the minors. For most of them, the word "Vassal" might be more appropriate. Napoleon issued edicts on how many troops they would raise, to be integrated into the French Army. Also, the "loan" of Expeditionary forces should be indefinite, until that minor country "defects" to the Coalition.
It's not going to happen within the current approach. The minors are AI controlled. Expeditionary forces won't be enough. AI doesn't build replacements which is another issue. The AI simply isn't cut out to have a AI controlled, independent minor.
The best way to accomplish this is to put minors such as Bavaria, Saxony (eventually), etc., under French control add the minor units to the major force pool. Same with other Major powers conquering minors. Annexation of "regions" won't work. Take the capital and absorb the faction and add the units to the major force pool.
There's no clean way to do everything. Keep the minor independent and you are dependent upon what the minor builds, lends and there will be no replacements. However, it's possible then to have the minor defect to the other side, like happened IRL. Absorb the minor, and you get the degree of control that was imposed IRL, but then there's no faction to defect anymore. It must be liberated.
Of the two, I'd vote for absorbing the faction (and then liberating it).
vicberg wrote:It's not going to happen within the current approach. The minors are AI controlled. Expeditionary forces won't be enough. AI doesn't build replacements which is another issue. The AI simply isn't cut out to have a AI controlled, independent minor.
The best way to accomplish this is to put minors such as Bavaria, Saxony (eventually), etc., under French control add the minor units to the major force pool. Same with other Major powers conquering minors. Annexation of "regions" won't work. Take the capital and absorb the faction and add the units to the major force pool.
There's no clean way to do everything. Keep the minor independent and you are dependent upon what the minor builds, lends and there will be no replacements. However, it's possible then to have the minor defect to the other side, like happened IRL. Absorb the minor, and you get the degree of control that was imposed IRL, but then there's no faction to defect anymore. It must be liberated.
Of the two, I'd vote for absorbing the faction (and then liberating it).
The thing I don't understand is that the game plans for french "recruitment" of foreign units, there is even an event for that in the F4 panel and some foreign units appear for the french (swiss, Nassau, etc...). There should be a way...
As I dive into the economy model, there's definitely issues. Unless I'm reading the code wrong, and if I am, please let me know, drafts in general are being strangely done.
1) For France, they get 600 conscripts every month from cities = 7200.
2) For Britain, 300 conscripts from cities = 3600 from cities
3) For France, they get 4 exceptional drafts per year at 1200 conscripts per draft = 4800 conscripts yearly.
4) For Britain, they get 4 major drafts per year at 600 per draft = 2400 conscripts yearly
5) For everyone else, they get 3 normal drafts every 2 months at 300 per draft = 900*6 = 5400!
6) Everyone gets 2 volunteers every 2 months at 150 per draft = 300*6 = 1800
Drafts have a 20% loyalty cost, which drives down the economy in the region and makes any type of 10 year economic projection for game balance difficult at best.
Money is another wild variable based on the base economy, plus tons of cards
1) France and Britain both get roughly 300 money per month from cities = 3600 yearly
2) Britain gets around 4 times more from merchants (which makes sense) = LOTS for Britain, around 1200 yearly for France
3) France gets 1 runner every 2 months at 300 money each = 600*6 = 3600
4) France gets 2 requisitions every 2 months (200 each) = 400*6 = 2400
It costs around 5500 conscripts and 4000-5000 money for a corp with 3 inf divs and 1 horse div. Replacements take money and conscripts. Loyalty is being driven down, so no idea the overall impact on the base production. Develop territory and habeus is a way to increase loyalty, but develop costs another 50 money.
So, we've got Super Britain in this game, with unrestricted forces almost equaling French at the start, and ability to increase it's forces to high levels because of drafts (which they didn't do), especially since they aren't constricted by Money or War Supplies as much as France is. We've got a Russia with questionable ability to build out it's forces to meet a French onslaught by 1812, especially since these drafts will drive down loyalty and production from many regions
France *might* be able to build another 6-7 corps assuming no major replacements needs, which doubles what they have. To do this, France won't be able to build up defenses in cities or pretty much anything else. In our PBEM game, I've been able to afford a single french Division in 6 months of game play.
Historians disagree on the size of the Grand Army in 1812 and it ranges from 450,000 to 680,000. Most agree that it was towards the 600,000, which is about triple the size of the starting Grand Army.
1) For France, they get 600 conscripts every month from cities = 7200.
2) For Britain, 300 conscripts from cities = 3600 from cities
3) For France, they get 4 exceptional drafts per year at 1200 conscripts per draft = 4800 conscripts yearly.
4) For Britain, they get 4 major drafts per year at 600 per draft = 2400 conscripts yearly
5) For everyone else, they get 3 normal drafts every 2 months at 300 per draft = 900*6 = 5400!
6) Everyone gets 2 volunteers every 2 months at 150 per draft = 300*6 = 1800
Drafts have a 20% loyalty cost, which drives down the economy in the region and makes any type of 10 year economic projection for game balance difficult at best.
Money is another wild variable based on the base economy, plus tons of cards
1) France and Britain both get roughly 300 money per month from cities = 3600 yearly
2) Britain gets around 4 times more from merchants (which makes sense) = LOTS for Britain, around 1200 yearly for France
3) France gets 1 runner every 2 months at 300 money each = 600*6 = 3600
4) France gets 2 requisitions every 2 months (200 each) = 400*6 = 2400
It costs around 5500 conscripts and 4000-5000 money for a corp with 3 inf divs and 1 horse div. Replacements take money and conscripts. Loyalty is being driven down, so no idea the overall impact on the base production. Develop territory and habeus is a way to increase loyalty, but develop costs another 50 money.
So, we've got Super Britain in this game, with unrestricted forces almost equaling French at the start, and ability to increase it's forces to high levels because of drafts (which they didn't do), especially since they aren't constricted by Money or War Supplies as much as France is. We've got a Russia with questionable ability to build out it's forces to meet a French onslaught by 1812, especially since these drafts will drive down loyalty and production from many regions
France *might* be able to build another 6-7 corps assuming no major replacements needs, which doubles what they have. To do this, France won't be able to build up defenses in cities or pretty much anything else. In our PBEM game, I've been able to afford a single french Division in 6 months of game play.
Historians disagree on the size of the Grand Army in 1812 and it ranges from 450,000 to 680,000. Most agree that it was towards the 600,000, which is about triple the size of the starting Grand Army.
veji1 wrote:The thing I don't understand is that the game plans for french "recruitment" of foreign units, there is even an event for that in the F4 panel and some foreign units appear for the french (swiss, Nassau, etc...). There should be a way...
You can't. The reason is the limitations of the current game engine. You could do a single French option, but then what does it include? There's no ability to "randomly" select units from a minor. Swiss, Bavarian, all have to be hard coded within the option. So now are we talking multiple options? One for Bavaria, Saxony, Swiss, etc, Rhineland, etc?). And what about the other powers? Need multiple options for them as well?
Simplest way is to simply absorb the faction and give full control over the conquering major, IMO. That too isn't easy from the script side.
Some quick comments here:
The size of armies is easy to mod, enlarge or restric via the forcepool files: if you don't want a huge British army, just make sure the FP does not allow for more units to be constructed than what they have on map at start, more or less a few brigades.
The Grande Armée in Russia did have arounf 600K men, but 1/3 at least were not French.
You can easily script some events to increase / decrease everyhting you want for every nation...the real question here is to make sure that you don't jump over or below limits over time...projecting needs and resources is howver a huge and almost impossible task...we can only extrapolate from different completed games...knowing that no single game is the same...
The size of armies is easy to mod, enlarge or restric via the forcepool files: if you don't want a huge British army, just make sure the FP does not allow for more units to be constructed than what they have on map at start, more or less a few brigades.
The Grande Armée in Russia did have arounf 600K men, but 1/3 at least were not French.
You can easily script some events to increase / decrease everyhting you want for every nation...the real question here is to make sure that you don't jump over or below limits over time...projecting needs and resources is howver a huge and almost impossible task...we can only extrapolate from different completed games...knowing that no single game is the same...
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Offworlder
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vicberg wrote:You can't. The reason is the limitations of the current game engine. You could do a single French option, but then what does it include? There's no ability to "randomly" select units from a minor. Swiss, Bavarian, all have to be hard coded within the option. So now are we talking multiple options? One for Bavaria, Saxony, Swiss, etc, Rhineland, etc?). And what about the other powers? Need multiple options for them as well?
Simplest way is to simply absorb the faction and give full control over the conquering major, IMO. That too isn't easy from the script side.
Could the foreign recruitment event, once fired, provide a set of foreign units recruitable by France? In previous Ageod games, like PON or TEAW, major multi-national powers could raise and equip forces from minorities within their border. This could represent the hard core element of for example Italians, Germans, Dutch, Poles and Swiss which formed part of the Grande Armee (kind of like the original Dutch forces in 2 Corps at the beginning of the game). Expeditionary forces would be over and above and limited in scope and time (ex the duration of a particular war).
PhilThib wrote:Some quick comments here:
The size of armies is easy to mod, enlarge or restric via the forcepool files: if you don't want a huge British army, just make sure the FP does not allow for more units to be constructed than what they have on map at start, more or less a few brigades.
The Grande Armée in Russia did have arounf 600K men, but 1/3 at least were not French.
You can easily script some events to increase / decrease everyhting you want for every nation...the real question here is to make sure that you don't jump over or below limits over time...projecting needs and resources is howver a huge and almost impossible task...we can only extrapolate from different completed games...knowing that no single game is the same...
I agree. Very challenging to predict the economics and then form that into game balance over a 10 year game. I'm not doing anything with Britain yet except removing their draft capabilities, since they didn't draft. That *might* bring Britain back into a basic historical view. They only expanded by 3 corp over 10 years. We'll have to see if Volunteers (for the Foreign conscript FM) is enough to keep replacements and build out their forces slowly. I'm not doing anything with their starting forces. Mike is working on that (I think) and I'll probably take what he does there.
Offworlder wrote:Could the foreign recruitment event, once fired, provide a set of foreign units recruitable by France? In previous Ageod games, like PON or TEAW, major multi-national powers could raise and equip forces from minorities within their border. This could represent the hard core element of for example Italians, Germans, Dutch, Poles and Swiss which formed part of the Grande Armee (kind of like the original Dutch forces in 2 Corps at the beginning of the game). Expeditionary forces would be over and above and limited in scope and time (ex the duration of a particular war).
Yes, that's possible, but the problem is the AI really isn't capable of managing the minor country satellites to the degree needed. Expeditionary forces aren't enough I'm afraid and will the minor replacements be enough to keep the forces in the field? So I'm doing something simple (probably controversial). It's something I've seen done in other Napoleon period games.
1) You conquer a minor capital (can’t be besieged)
2) The major power with military control > 51 turns the minor into a satellite (automatic)
3) All factions relationships go down by 10 other than allies
4) The Satellite is absorbed into the major, getting assets, units and force pools added to the major
I'm working on liberation, but this is how it will work
1) Another major controls the minor capital
2) The minor faction is recreated
3) The force pools are restored to the minor
4) Military Control is reverted to minor and loyalty goes back to minor
And of course, you may liberate a minor, then declare war and then turn it into a satellite. This is the only real approach I can see for giving a major enough control over the minor. France, for example, can build out the minors force pools. Conscripts and economic assets go to the major. This is the degree of control that Nappy had over his satellites, for example, but I'm expanding it to all major powers.
I'll need to run fix scripts for Bavaria, Switzerland for France and possibly Saxony for Prussia, as well as actual satellite creations such as Rhineland and Westphalia. The Annexation Events will remain as is with their current relationship costs. I'll need to tweak the events that give Saxony back to France. And I'll need an event that checks for a change and the "allies" start deserting France (or any other Major Power that has satellites) and then reverts them to AI controlled. I'll have to destroy the minor country units already incorporated into the Major without affecting the other major units. So this should fit into the scripted events while providing a better degree of control.
The satellite creation scripts are done (380 of them). The liberation scripts and fix scripts are in progress.
And after some play testing, the idea of adding extra hits to elite and veteran units has been scrapped because attrition went through the roof because of the extra model hits. I've gone back to the standard 8 hits per unit and have adjusted gun damage/assault damage, gun cohesion caused/assault cohesion done down to low levels, similar to EAW. After running quite a few tests, I'm liking the combat results. I also gave french a minor baseattrition bonus for veteran and elite units. They suffered less attrition, moving quite quickly throughout the 10 year war. Nice thing is that as replacements come into these elite and veteran units, their experience an quality will drop them down to regular status and bring them back into normal attrition, which is what happened during the later parts of the war.
vicberg wrote:I agree. Very challenging to predict the economics and then form that into game balance over a 10 year game. I'm not doing anything with Britain yet except removing their draft capabilities, since they didn't draft. That *might* bring Britain back into a basic historical view. They only expanded by 3 corp over 10 years. We'll have to see if Volunteers (for the Foreign conscript FM) is enough to keep replacements and build out their forces slowly. I'm not doing anything with their starting forces. Mike is working on that (I think) and I'll probably take what he does there.
Challenging yes, but it is always better to impose economic constraint than to artifficially limit force pool. Then the player max out on his force pool and whole economic game matters no more.
We did economic balancing in cw2 and it turned out OK.
Just found a nasty nasty bug.
All of the block runner regions decision renewals for AUS, RUS, SPA, PRU have SelectFaction = FRA, so these cards are all going to FRA instead of respective countries.
EDIT: All of the renewals need review. Looks like the same spreadsheet was copied into the different powers and not updated correctly. There's renewals in AUS file pointing at GBR, FRA. There's some RUS, TUR, SPA events copied into all renewals (the same event).
All of the block runner regions decision renewals for AUS, RUS, SPA, PRU have SelectFaction = FRA, so these cards are all going to FRA instead of respective countries.
EDIT: All of the renewals need review. Looks like the same spreadsheet was copied into the different powers and not updated correctly. There's renewals in AUS file pointing at GBR, FRA. There's some RUS, TUR, SPA events copied into all renewals (the same event).
vicberg wrote:All of the block runner regions decision renewals for AUS, RUS, SPA, PRU have SelectFaction = FRA, so these cards are all going to FRA instead of respective countries
WAD, not a bug initially, none of the nations EXECEPT France were supposed to have those blockade runners decisions...what is not WAD is that those actions should not even be in the files in the first place. Will remove them
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