Scam?

[Pocus]

Yes, if recent advances in AI developments can be used in games, that would be a boon for us wargamers. Lets face it, 4x games have at best an average AI. Often a mediocre one, sometime a bad one. Even big 4X titles with millions dollars budgets have mediocre AI, so time to be pragmatic. Ideally what Google or facebook use can find its way in our games, plus they released part of their code as open source...

[ERISS]

So much budget is not needed:
The better AI is not to be the strongest, as it would win us every time and we would stronger feel we're against a computer than feeling in a game.
The better AI is what simulate a human with his flaws, and so a bad AI (with the dev strategical flaws) can be enough for a game.

[Pocus]

Sure, but what you want still require a lot of money, because you need several people just for the AI and some must have degrees in proper engineering and technical fields. Plus AI is not a strong factor in initial sells, that's why no studio have a big crew on AI. Why do you think Stardock, Creative Assembly or Firaxis have games with AIs that are so-so and not superb? Because it's darn difficult to do an AI and/or they don't want to have a full team on it.

Ask yourself why there is no complex game with a good AI. Is it really because no one on earth can code what is needed or is it because it don't pay off?

[vaalen]

[quote="ERISS"]So much budget is not needed:
The better AI is not to be the strongest, as it would win us every time and we would stronger feel we're against a computer than feeling in a game.
The better AI is what simulate a human with his flaws, and so a bad AI (with the dev strategical flaws) can be enough for a game.[/QU

Excellent point.

I actually find the AI in this game, and the other Ageod games, to be excellent for the period they portray, and they give me a very good game, so long as I act if I was a real commander of the time, and do not do crazy things that no real commander would do that drive Athena crazy.

You can make the AI more formidable by giving it more time, and playing at a higher AI level. After all this time, I must confess that I cannot handle the AI at the highest levels.

[jack54]

I like the Ageod AI as well. Fortunately I'm not a great player. When beta testing RUS gold our fearless leader had to re-check things because I didn't do something... if I remember it was something like " that's not, not supposed to happen." He had to check that a series of event's still occur even if someone played poorly.

What concerns me is the possibility of NO ai...hopefully the devs don't start to feel it's not worth the effort: can't see myself buying something like that... I'd probably break out the board games in the closet and start rolling dice again.

[Cardinal Ape]

Hey Pocus, I'm curious about what affect it would have on Athena if she was given more time to plot her moves? Like 10 minuets? An hour?

I know people don't like to wait, but there really isn't any substitute for a good amount of computation time. Even in face to face board games versus humans I frequently hear, 'Get over your analysis paralysis and make a move already.' I can sympathize with Athena...

I've taken a look at some of the reviews on Steam of the various Ageod games. Perhaps the most common complaint I can recall seeing was that turns took too long to process. While the lack of patience baffles me, it does show why a better AI might actually hurt sales. 'tis a sad thing for the hermit gamer.

[Sir Garnet]

The question is how long the opposing player is allowed to think in a game where more thinking produces better moves.

[Cardinal Ape]

Well, if Athena in her current state could produce better moves with extra time, then I would be happy to give it to her. Assuming that she doesn't fall into a combinatorial explosion, of course.

I have previously played a PBEM against a new player where I handicapped myself by timing my turns. It sucked. Entire theaters were left without orders on some turns. It was insanely difficult. I wonder if Athena feels the same?

[elxaime]

The better AI is what simulate a human with his flaws...

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"Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world? Where none suffered, where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost. Some believed we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. But I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery. The perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from. Which is why the Matrix was redesigned to this: the peak of your civilization."

[Pocus]

There is a limit to the increased intelligence Athena will gain from extra time. The checkbox 'extra time' is more than enough for the current algorithms. Sorry!

[vaalen]

A lot of the generals in this era, and most eras, were not very good. If you have a brilliant AI that always makes good moves, that is actually very unrealistic. unless the enemy had brilliant generals. In fact, my main problem with Athena at this point is that she is too good at times, when the AI has really bad commanders.

But even that is accounted for in the options, where you can set the activation and detection and AI options to dumb down Athena to resemble the bad generals of the past, who were often paralyzed by indecision. And the leader traits also do a great job of portraying bad generals with their historical faults.

I must admit I usually do not do this , because I want a more challenging game. But that we have the option to do so is part of the brilliance of the system.