Spain Division Problem

[deidaraakatski]

At the moment it does not seem possible to create this type of event. Even if it was it would take a lot of time. It is much more feasible to go change the way the event works rather than restructuring entire armies. If possible both suggestions can even be implemented. The practical one first and see results then the complex one if the results are not favorable.

[veji1]

At the moment it does not seem possible to create this type of event. Even it was it would take a lot of time. It is much more feasible to go change the way the event works rather than restructuring entire armies. If possible both suggestions can even be implemented. The practical one first and see results then the complex one if the results are not favorable.

Agreed, just saying that the practical event will help players mainly, rather than the AI, but it can't hurt anyway so might as well do it.

To be honest when I look at this game, which I still soo soo badly want to play, I wonder what the beta testers were doing... there are just glaring issues

[deidaraakatski]

Agreed, just saying that the practical event will help players mainly, rather than the AI, but it can't hurt anyway so might as well do it.

To be honest when I look at this game, which I still soo soo badly want to play, I wonder what the beta testers were doing... there are just glaring issues

After reading some other threads this game needs the help of the community and dedicated modders. Problem for both developers and modders is finding time.

[veji1]

Agreed, just saying that the practical event will help players mainly, rather than the AI, but it can't hurt anyway so might as well do it.

To be honest when I look at this game, which I still soo soo badly want to play, I wonder what the beta testers were doing... there are just glaring issues

After reading some other threads this game needs the help of the community and dedicated modders. Problem for both developers and modders is finding time.

Sadly I think what would work better is for the devs to provide us with a stable, efficient and well oiled War of Succession and for the modders to then apply a Napoleonic scenario on top of it.

[Captain_Orso]

"Does anybody have a Save with any or all of the major factions with Military Reforms in place that I could have a look at? It would be much appreciated "

I have a save for you. I have gotten this far...it's the entire reason I created this thread....

Where would you like the Zip sent?

I found that just looking at the French division units gave me the information I needed, so no need for a save. Thanks for checking though

[Captain_Orso]

In honesty, I can't refute your view that the AI is not building the most optimal divisions possible, veji1, although from my experience in AACW and CW2 my feeling is that it's not quite so bad as you are painting it(1).

Even if it were possible to do as you suggest, to simply zap away all the forces of an AI faction which received military reforms, and replace them with a set of division units, it would be an ugly solution for exactly that reason. It would be tantamount to what you said about taking over the North in the winter months to reorganize its armies and then setting it loose, only it would happen over night .

This would also still not be a real solution, because 'old style divisions' would still be far stronger than division units as 'old style divisions' could still be about 30% larger in size, which would make it possible to build corps, which would be 30% stronger than AI corps. If you wanted to balance that out by allowing the AI to also still use 'old style' divisions so that it could also have a number of very strong division, we would be at square one again.

Also, if you are expecting a faction to be ready for war just because it has implemented military reforms on the day they go into affect, that is simply unrealistic. Historically from what I read about the Austrian reforms, they took over a year to implement once they were decided upon. Before that they were just writing on paper.

The real issue is, and will remain, the AI's ability to actually structure its forces in a reasonable fashion, regardless of the units available to it.


(1) my experience with following the AI in how it builds divisions in WON is limited, as my testing experience in WON has been in the area of technical functions and in PBEM games. But the AI is the same as in CW2 and there my experience is extensive.

EDIT: bold text

[lordlau1]

This post was not made to talk about the AI. I am talking about PBEM games here. How did we get onto the AI chat? I wanted Pocus and the team to see what I was referring to as far as the reforms go..

[deidaraakatski]

This post was not made to talk about the AI. I am talking about PBEM games here. How did we get onto the AI chat? I wanted Pocus and the team to see what I was referring to as far as the reforms go..

We Are talking about the military reform. This does not Only just concern PBEM because military reform affects the single player. We are on topic. Discussing and then proposing new thoughts and ideas on how the military reform function can be changed.

[Captain_Orso]

This post was not made to talk about the AI. I am talking about PBEM games here. How did we get onto the AI chat? I wanted Pocus and the team to see what I was referring to as far as the reforms go..

I think we got swept away, sorry .

When I have time I will look into modding the events to allow a larger number of 'old style division' than 5 through the military reforms.

Questions:

1. How many divisions should be allowed for which factions through reforms? Same as before reforms? Twice as many? Unlimited?

2. What about before reforms?

[deidaraakatski]

Unlimited seems like a nice number. Manpower and money will be the filter.

[veji1]

This post was not made to talk about the AI. I am talking about PBEM games here. How did we get onto the AI chat? I wanted Pocus and the team to see what I was referring to as far as the reforms go..

I think we got swept away, sorry .

When I have time I will look into modding the events to allow a larger number of 'old style division' than 5 through the military reforms.

Questions:

1. How many divisions should be allowed for which factions through reforms? Same as before reforms? Twice as many? Unlimited?

2. What about before reforms?

I would do it differently :
1/ old style divisions that a player can build himself should be impossible in the game before reforms. Punkt. That way armies that are before reforms have to make do with the brigades they have and all the penalties associated.
2/ once a country has had his reforms, he can make divisions by merging brigades but those divisions can only be say 12 elements strong at most for inantry and say 8 for cav, ie the size of most of their new style divisions they can buy. No more giga 18 elements divisions that are super powerful.

This is a simple solution to sort out the issue. 18 elements divisions are way way too big anyway, and the whole point of the reforms is that before them managing your army should be a frigging mess with lots of penalties for using brigades...

[Captain_Orso]

Unlimited seems like a nice number. Manpower and money will be the filter.

That's practically always my opinion

[veji1]

If there must be some old style divisions formed at game or scenario start for a preform nation, well the player and AI must know that if you break it down, you won't be able to reform it since you have 0 divisions allowed. This should be the simplest method. No divs before reforms, and the ones you can be only on the medium/small side after reforms. How many you can build would depend on reforms/countries, etc.

[veji1]

Unlimited seems like a nice number. Manpower and money will be the filter.

That's practically always my opinion

But make them smaller ! biggish 18 elements divisions are just way too strong in the game.

[Captain_Orso]

This post was not made to talk about the AI. I am talking about PBEM games here. How did we get onto the AI chat? I wanted Pocus and the team to see what I was referring to as far as the reforms go..

I think we got swept away, sorry .

When I have time I will look into modding the events to allow a larger number of 'old style division' than 5 through the military reforms.

Questions:

1. How many divisions should be allowed for which factions through reforms? Same as before reforms? Twice as many? Unlimited?

2. What about before reforms?

I would do it differently :
1/ old style divisions that a player can build himself should be impossible in the game before reforms. Punkt. That way armies that are before reforms have to make do with the brigades they have and all the penalties associated.

That would be possible, but I think it would leave the French too powerful before reforms.

2/ once a country has had his reforms, he can make divisions by merging brigades but those divisions can only be say 12 elements strong at most for inantry and say 8 for cav, ie the size of most of their new style divisions they can buy. No more giga 18 elements divisions that are super powerful.

This is not possible at all. The size of Combi-Units (divisions) is hard-coded in to the game-engine.

This is a simple solution to sort out the issue. 18 elements divisions are way way too big anyway, and the whole point of the reforms is that before them managing your army should be a frigging mess with lots of penalties for using brigades...

I have no idea how you determine that 'old style divisions' are "way way too big", other than personal preference. What ever floats your boat.

[veji1]

1/ old style divisions that a player can build himself should be impossible in the game before reforms. Punkt. That way armies that are before reforms have to make do with the brigades they have and all the penalties associated.

That would be possible, but I think it would leave the French too powerful before reforms.

Well part of the reason the french utterly trashed the Austrians and Russians and then Prussians in 1805/1086 was that these nations' organisation was old and rusty with a big lack of operational and tactical flexibility.. As is often the case this should be underlined in the setup of the french army rather than by overevaluating some of its leaders.

2/ once a country has had his reforms, he can make divisions by merging brigades but those divisions can only be say 12 elements strong at most for inantry and say 8 for cav, ie the size of most of their new style divisions they can buy. No more giga 18 elements divisions that are super powerful.

This is not possible at all. The size of Combi-Units (divisions) is hard-coded in to the game-engine.

Well then this is an aspect of the code that needs changing.

This is a simple solution to sort out the issue. 18 elements divisions are way way too big anyway, and the whole point of the reforms is that before them managing your army should be a frigging mess with lots of penalties for using brigades...

I have no idea how you determine that 'old style divisions' are "way way too big", other than personal preference. What ever floats your boat.

Because it makes mega stacks too easy and makes the whole C&C aspect of the game less important. If you can do a big stack with your best 2 or 3 star general and he can have your best 4 one star generals commanding each and 18 element division, your one stack is going to be a death stack with at least 68 combat elements in there without the extras...

I already find that C&C is too easy in this game compared as in in AACW for example. Smaller divisions means that you can't just build a stack of doom easily, you will always have to spread your troops over more stacks and this means that suddenly coordination of movement becomes important.

Give the Austrians or Prussians the ability to build 18 elements divisions from the start, even just say 5, and with their best troops and leaders they can already build a good strong functionning stack. They don't need to use their crappy leaders. But if they can't build divisions before some reforms, they have to use many more leaders and spread the troops under those leaders to avoid command penalties. And even after the reforms, smaller divisions means more leaders needed because you need more divisions, therefore more stacks/corps, for th same amount of elements. Having to manage the C&C element of the game is a major component of the fun and the challenge of this game, plus it an important part of the simulation aspect.

As the Prussians I MUST find a way to make my army function using the Hohenlhoe and Brunswicks and all.. I can't just straight away concentrate my troops under my best leadesr.

[Baris]

Lowering max elements in a formed division could be a good idea. Or&and maybe also lowering command capacity.

[veji1]

If the devs could do that small change, it would make a big difference. I have always found that having the old style divisions in this AND the new style divisions which are self sufficient units you buy off the shelf was a strange idea.. And the fact that in most case an old style division made of different brigades is actually better than a new one because it is bigger and gives you flexibility to change its composition, I just don't really understand it.

Whereas :
- no divs before reform, you are stuck with an unwieldy army made of Brigades which forces you to really use all your leaders including the crappy ones to make it move.
- once you have reforms you can build old style divisions as well so that you merge your brigades together, but they are not more interesting than the new ones.

This makes a lot more sense to me and shouldn't be difficult to code for the devs (change the upper limit of elements per division) and from then on for modders.

[veji1]

Lowering max elements in a formed division could be a good idea. Or&and maybe also lowering command capacity.

problem is that commanding a division costs 4 command points, whether the div is 12 or 18 elements.. 5 18 elements divisions is a stack of 90 elements (including 5 leaders) a 3star can command without penalty. This is a frigging massive stack there, ie a real army. Something like 40 000 to 50 000 men that you can manage without penalty nor command issues since they are in the same stack

And the whole point of having military reforms etc in game is that this is exactly what the ennemy of Napoleons just couldn't do ! Their armies of similar size were big unwieldy things... Here as the Austrians, if you are given enough time in 1805 you could get Archduke Charles and give him the best leaders and you can have a stack worth 2 french corps who is nimble, well led and will fight hard as hell !