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Templer
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Ammunition - To have, or not to have

Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:09 pm

The battle report says 100% of my soldiers had ammunition during the battle.
But the inspection panel shows 0 in stock.
Ah, so? :confused:

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RGA
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Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:48 pm

Ammunition only applies for medium and heavy artillery ?

Merlin
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Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:52 pm

And it's critical. Expect to build 4-10 munitions factories at a minimum over the course of the game. Even Russia can handle four.

RGA
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Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:57 pm

Does it matter where you build them ? If far back from the front do they take longer to arrive at the front ?

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Mon Sep 08, 2014 11:52 pm

Not really. There's so much available rail capacity in EAW that transportation of ammo isn't really an issue. I generally feel it's better to be safe than sorry and build my factories well behind the lines.

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Templer
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Tue Sep 09, 2014 1:58 am

RGA wrote:Ammunition only applies for medium and heavy artillery ?

That must be it.
I forgot that. :bonk:

Regardless, the thread became interesting and informative.
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H Gilmer3
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Tue Sep 09, 2014 2:20 am

Well, Merlin just convinced me to buy 4 more munitions. I think I had bought about 6 and I wanted more. Plus it each one produces more war supply per turn the more you have. So, I got that going for me, which is nice.
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Tue Sep 09, 2014 2:58 am

H Gilmer3 wrote:Well, Merlin just convinced me to buy 4 more munitions. I think I had bought about 6 and I wanted more. Plus it each one produces more war supply per turn the more you have. So, I got that going for me, which is nice.


Just curious, but why do you think the munition factories produce war supply?

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H Gilmer3
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Tue Sep 09, 2014 3:30 am

Reiryc wrote:Just curious, but why do you think the munition factories produce war supply?


I thought for sure I saw that that was part of the output. I apologize.

On a side note, I have built a heck of a lot more than I thought. I counted 13 munitions factories in 4 cities and I know there are more. Any way to see a listing of how many?

Edit: I think I may have been looking at an arsenal. Now, I bet that supply is not really war supply, is it?

At last count, I have built about 13 munitions factories, and 7 are being constructed. I'm not ever going to run out of artillery ammo!! I built 2 in England and 1 in Egypt.
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Reiryc
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Tue Sep 09, 2014 3:38 am

H Gilmer3 wrote:I thought for sure I saw that that was part of the output. I apologize.

On a side note, I have built a heck of a lot more than I thought. I counted 13 munitions factories in 4 cities and I know there are more. Any way to see a listing of how many?

Edit: I think I may have been looking at an arsenal. Now, I bet that supply is not really war supply, is it?

At last count, I have built about 13 munitions factories, and 7 are being constructed. I'm not ever going to run out of artillery ammo!! I built 2 in England and 1 in Egypt.


No, please don't apologize... lol.

i was wondering if I didn't know that ammo factories made war supply =) Tool tips didn't mention it so was trying to figure it out.

I must not be building enough artillery. I never run out of ammo and I rarely build ammo factories (as the CP that is).

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Tue Sep 09, 2014 3:41 am

I build at least 1 MA or HA a turn, so base your needs of my previous posts and that.

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H Gilmer3
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Tue Sep 09, 2014 3:52 am

Is Artillery ammunition the number next to engagement points that says munitions? Because I have over 2000 in that number.
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Tue Sep 09, 2014 3:57 am

H Gilmer3 wrote:Is Artillery ammunition the number next to engagement points that says munitions? Because I have over 2000 in that number.


Yes, that's it...

that's what gets used by medium/heavy artillery and warships.

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H Gilmer3
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Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:09 am

So, I'm thinking 2000+ is probably a lot. I wonder how much is used. 1 each per artillery regiment actually fighting for each round, so a really big battle could use 30-40 or so?
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Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:51 am

H Gilmer3 wrote:So, I'm thinking 2000+ is probably a lot. I wonder how much is used. 1 each per artillery regiment actually fighting for each round, so a really big battle could use 30-40 or so?


All I can say is... ive never once run out of ammo and I have at most in any game, built 2 ammo factories.

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Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:13 am

Merlin wrote:Not really. There's so much available rail capacity in EAW that transportation of ammo isn't really an issue. I generally feel it's better to be safe than sorry and build my factories well behind the lines.


I really feel the rail capacity should be cut in half in this game. It's really super high, it never puts the player to choose. If you can move almost all your field armies in one turn by train, there's something horribly wrong. It's just too easy like this.

Reiryc wrote:I must not be building enough artillery. I never run out of ammo and I rarely build ammo factories (as the CP that is).

The Central Powers start at a better ammunition production capacity than the other nations. But if you go heavy on artillery, which you should go, you will need some of them for the later years anyway.
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Tue Sep 09, 2014 8:11 am

I fear you maybe correct on the Rail cap Kensai...

I have at the moment as the CP at turn 8 1146 RC, Von klucks 1. Armee has 114948 men, 564 guns and 7348 horses, yet it only takes 115 rail points to rail him and his army anywhere.. that is wrong, that means I could if wanted move most of the German army to a different front in 1 to 2 turns... I know the rail pool is not only for Germany but also for A-H and the Ottoman armies combined...

So yes I think the RC should be halved, anybody else think this?

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Tue Sep 09, 2014 8:54 am

I don't particularly care. This isn't CW2 or E36 and no one is going to move an entire front in a turn. Given the dense rail networks of Europe compared to much of the rest of the world at that time, I don't really have a problem with the massive amount of rail stock available.

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Tue Sep 09, 2014 9:12 am

There was dense rail network, but being able to move all armies so easily? Apart from being gamey sounds unhistorical too. Perhaps even half is more than enough. I personally enjoy my railway dilemmas only in the beginning of the game, when they are seriously low.
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Tue Sep 09, 2014 9:18 am

I think no practical limitation on rail usage is fine 95% of the time, because you wont need more than what was historically available.

The thing the rail network must be able to simulate is heavy strategical redeployment between fronts. Like if EE is knocked out, how many turns CP needs to bring its armies back to the west ? Does the game portays this fine with the current setup ?

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Tue Sep 09, 2014 9:46 am

I don't think AMMO Factories give WSU or do they?? i have not observed the same.

5-6 Ammo factories spread over should be enough i guess. i.e. 30-40 Ammo per Turn, your initial position also gives some ammo per turn, about 100 per turn is more than enough, calculate it for each faction but in my opinion 100 per turn generation is more than enough, better to spread it around in big cities having multiple rail nodes and also one near the port.

If WE- one in EGYPT.

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Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:16 am

Nico165 wrote:The thing the rail network must be able to simulate is heavy strategical redeployment between fronts. Like if EE is knocked out, how many turns CP needs to bring its armies back to the west ? Does the game portays this fine with the current setup ?

How many armies where in the East? Apart from the 8th Army and the ad-hoc created 9th and 10th, where they any other? The first seven remained in the West Front all the time, right?

So if we cap the railway ability to the equivalent of 3-4 armies, we are ok. Right now it's definitely more than that! Essentially I don't think a player ever even considers his railway capacity apart from the opening rounds.
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Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:37 am

8,9,10,11,12 were the Armies in the EAST.

1-7 in the West and 14th in Italy.

No 13th due to the BAD LUCK Syndrome.

15,16,17 armies created in 1918 were from the divisions sent west by train from Russia by Ludendorff, he managed to transfer troops quite quickly in late 1917. But problem was- Winter was at hand, also the Stormtruppen were not fully ready nor were the Bruchmuller reforms complete. Still in late 1918, 1 million troops were there in Russia that is 20% or more of the German Army. LOT OF TROOPS. Greater than the the total AEF.

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Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:48 am

Sorry for DOUBLE POST-

Now admittedly the Armies in the East were not numerically equal or even Gun-Wise equal to the Western Armies, but in numbers they were about 50-60% of the Western Armies at the Peak. These numbers rose and fell several times, the General Staff was extremely capable and GROENER who ran the Railways always managed to switch whole armies in a week or so from East to West and Back.
This happened several times in the War, eg:-
In early 1915, Falkenhyn needed more tactical formations (divisions) so the STAFF reduced one regiment per division and formed new units. These were rapidly sent east during the DIVERSIONARY attack by GAS in Flanders - done to fool the British Intelligence than gain a victory.
Again, once Serbia fell the Entire Mackensen Army Group (2 mixed armies) transported to Gorlice-Tarnow for the attack.
After end of 'GREAT RETREAT' by Russia, troops sent WEST for- VERDUN
And then, sent back to East to crush Romania and again sent West to stop the BRITISH SOMME attack.
yet again, sent East to Stop Brusilov Offensive and then sent back to Italy to do- CAPORETTO
and back to East for Kerensky Offensive and back again in West for Final Assaults.

Lot of travel for the crack formations like- Guards, Guards Reserve, Alpenkorps, Lower numbered infantry divisions (pre-war) which were again and again used as BREAKTHROUGH formations.

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Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:52 am

Like I said in my post, maybe it just seems a lot because the CP player controls German, A-H and the Ottomans.. and therefore controls the abstracted rolling stock of all 3 country's....

Shri, I have tried to find a definite answer regarding how long it took for Lundendorf to transfer all the troops west for the 1918 offensive, did you find a good website with the info on it?

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Shri
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Tue Sep 09, 2014 11:01 am

No website, sorry, all these are from reading books- memory of having read books- so 10+ years ago.

Will try to find some website and let you know.

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Shri
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Tue Sep 09, 2014 11:04 am

As a thumb rule, the 1914 mobilisation can be used, within 2 weeks 1.5 million men were moved and sent 'battle-ready' to their initial starting stations by the Gen. Staff headed by Groener (who was head of Railways Dept). 11000 Trains were used and put a major strain on the Railway system but a strain they were able to bear.

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Tue Sep 09, 2014 11:26 am

Ideally we could have a surge in railway capacity as an one-shot event, just to simulate this aspect. Its condition could be the firing of the Brest-Litovsk peace. I really want to see railway capacity decreased for the challenge. It's useless now, almost gamey.
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Tue Sep 09, 2014 11:44 am

Highlandcharge wrote:Like I said in my post, maybe it just seems a lot because the CP player controls German, A-H and the Ottomans.. and therefore controls the abstracted rolling stock of all 3 country's....

Shri, I have tried to find a definite answer regarding how long it took for Lundendorf to transfer all the troops west for the 1918 offensive, did you find a good website with the info on it?



http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostfront_%28Erster_Weltkrieg%29#Kriegsentscheidung_im_Westen_und_Zusammenbruch_der_Mittelm.C3.A4chte

From Dec. 1917 to Nov. 1918 from the East Front 63 German Divs went to the WF, 3 Divs to the Balkan. From Jan. 1918 to Aug. 1918 from the EF 25 Aus-Hung Divs went to the Italian Front, 5 IDs to the Balkans.

At the begin of the Kaiserschlacht in March 21 1918 at the EF there were still 53 German Divs and 13 independet Bdes, more than 1 Mio. men (8th, 10th Army, Heeresgruppe Kiev). Until autumn 1918 another 25 divs (500k men) were transfered from the EF. In Summer 1918 Aust Hung still had some 200-250k men in the East (2nd Army).

David Stevenson, With our backs to the wall: Victory and defeat in 1918, p. 36:
Germany WF: (Nov. 1917) 3,25 Mio. men. (1. Apr.) 1918 just over 4 Mio.
German Ostheer, Balkans, Turkey: (Nov. 1917) 2 Mio. men. (Apr. 1918) 1,5 Mio men.

Autumn 1917: German Ostheer 85 Divs. WF: 147 Divs.
April 1918: German Ostheer 47. WF 191 Divs.
On the WF 1918 most of the Ostheer was not used as attack force but to substitute WF Divs for the attack force on quiter sectors.

I'm not sure that train capacity was the limiting factor building up the WF with Ostheer Divs:
-It was a political decision to keep a large force in the East grabbing and occupying the Baltics and Ukrainia.
-In the West Ostheer Divs were used as Stellungsdivisionen not attack divsions, indicating lack of training and material.

So, the IRL transfer from East to West ammounted to:
Some 35 divs from Dec. 17 to April 18 (4 to 5 months, 8 to 10 turns).
Some 25 to 30 divs from May to Nov 18 (7 months,14 turns).
But, maybe different from WW2, under WW1 WF conditions those weren't exactly mostly elite formations.

The question is how many divs could have been transferred from East to West in what time.

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Tue Sep 09, 2014 11:47 am

Maybe decreased numbers of Rail Points and also divided between CP countries?

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