Surrender to neutral Indians

[tripax]

I am not sure if this is WAD, but my militia and yankee unionist garrisons keep disappearing in Western Arizona. I didn't know what was happening, but now have figured it out. They are surrendering to Indians, even though the Indians are neutral (at least this band is, and they have been the whole game, including last turn and, as you can see, this turn). Here is a screenshot, message 4 is the relevant message.
[ATTACH]31778[/ATTACH]

[Pocus]

Did you see a siege icon meanwhile?

[tripax]

I'm not sure. I garrison nearly every rebel and border town with militia, so I'll keep an eye on it during my next game.

I forgot to mention that MC was in favor of Indians, I think, while Loyalty was in favor of Unionists - the garrison had just arrived in the region so I guess Indians had increased MC. If MC was in favor of Indians, maybe that means that we were antagonists in the previous turn, but I really don't think that was the case.

Also, as USA, I've noticed that my militia's don't seem to stay in their garrisons if MC is in favor of CSA. Is this new/WAD? I kind of like it, even though it makes it harder to capture and hold a city with a very small force (I do this a lot, but I think the change makes sense).

Putting the two together, perhaps low cohesion/famished militia and unionist units got turned out of Pimas Village by Indians with MC, got scared, and surrendered?

[ohms_law]

Since it's December, I'm betting that the terrain throughout that area is all "Muddy", and it therefore probably took the units > 30 days to get to Pima. I see that the province is looted as well (along with the other one to the east), so... your last sentence is most likely, to me.

The Far West is tough to hold operations in. I nearly lost a whole army out there in one game that I played.

[tripax]

My Union Far West strategy seemed to work well in the past, but since the patch (the game this question is based on and one more game currently in December 1861) I think the AI has neutralized that strategy - the AI is now a bit aggressive in New Mexico and the California Column is too late to help.

[tripax]

In a related oddity, my Union California militia are no longer able to capture un-garrisoned Pima Villages. I have 67% MC and 55% Loyalty and am besieging a seemingly empty village. I loaded the CSA side to make sure that the village was empty (maybe my detect wasn't high enough to see what was there) and it is.

[ATTACH]31885[/ATTACH]

[Captain_Orso]

I've had that happen to me too. Eventually I did capture the location, but it took like 5 or 6 turns of standing around trying different things like going to Offensive Posture, going to Assault Posture. Nothing seemed to make a difference. I could never figure it out. Suddenly one day--turn--I had captured the location .

It's a real PITA when you're trying to take control of Arizona and you hit in invisible wall

Pima Villages is a town with a redoubt. AFAIK a redoubt doesn't change the way a town works with regards to capturing it. So if you have >50% loyalty and any foot or mounted element you should immediately capture an empty town.

I've also wondered if the Indians in the region might have something to do with it. They can also have MC in the region and if the unit you have posted in the region loses cohesion, or for example you send one out and another in, and the arriving units is low on cohesion from marching through the dessert--especially in bad weather--I've seen the Indians gain MC. Once the unit I had just moved into the region recovered, I stated regaining MC again, but it sure took a while.

But if the Indians are preventing you from capturing a town, in my mind that is an act of war and the Indians should cease to be neutral.

[elxaime]

But if the Indians are preventing you from capturing a town, in my mind that is an act of war and the Indians should cease to be neutral.

I am wondering if this is WAD. The neutral Indians have their own purposes and probably don't appreciate you bringing your roads and whiskey and guns into their ancestral lands.

By late game, the Union is usually flush with cash and can buy them off. CSA will just have to grin and bear it and anyway who wants Confederate dollars by late game?

[Captain_Orso]

You know, I actually have no idea if neutral units are supposed to have any affect on what's going on in the region. I would say no.

If the Indians are going to get all huffy about Union troops moving into the region, I would say that's not neutral anymore.

I've never had a neutral Indian capture one of my garrisons, but I did have the situation that I couldn't capture Pinos Altos for a number of turns, although it was empty and I had 55% loyalty. The tool-tip on Pinos Altos said it was besieged, although it was empty. I actually switched sides to to the CS, and using the console to the IND, to see if I was missing anything. There is the one Indian stack in Western New Mexico (1 braves and 1 Indian leader), but every way I look at them they say they are neutral. So we'll have to wait until Pocus had time to look into this, I guess.

[FelixZ]

You know, I actually have no idea if neutral units are supposed to have any affect on what's going on in the region. I would say no.

If the Indians are going to get all huffy about Union troops moving into the region, I would say that's not neutral anymore.

I've never had a neutral Indian capture one of my garrisons, but I did have the situation that I couldn't capture Pinos Altos for a number of turns, although it was empty and I had 55% loyalty. The tool-tip on Pinos Altos said it was besieged, although it was empty. I actually switched sides to to the CS, and using the console to the IND, to see if I was missing anything. There is the one Indian stack in Western New Mexico (1 braves and 1 Indian leader), but every way I look at them they say they are neutral. So we'll have to wait until Pocus had time to look into this, I guess.

I also had the same experience with Pinos Altos - about 5 turns. Finally changed hands when more USA troops arrived.

[grimjaw]

There are no "neutral" factions in the game; just neutral relationships between factions and factions operating under AI or player control. I don't recall right now, but I think at the start, the IND faction is set to more or less neutral faction relationships with both CSA and USA (maybe slightly more positively disposed toward CSA). Unlike the USA/CSA but like the other factions, AI for IND is turned off until a certain event fires. I *think* the IND faction (or the others) will still establish control of a region where it has qualifying units. The key to keep them running all over the map establishing MC is having their AI turned off most of the time.

I don't remember when the Sioux Uprising event fires off the top off my head, and I don't have the game files handy. Since the IND faction isn't separated out into multiple tribes, when one tribe goes on the warpath, the entire country goes hostile to the USA faction. One minute they're neutral. The next they are at war with you. When they go neutral again, their faction relationship changes such that wherever they managed to establish majority MC, and the CSA has no stake in the territory (that's the key factor), the USA can't enter what has become de facto IND sovereign nation. I *think* the duration of the Sioux event is the only window the USA has under the vanilla game to enter and take the territory near Santa Fe that starts off as IND controlled.

The thing I don't know the answer to is if the following have effects on units establishing MC.

- offensive/defensive/passive stance
- inside a structure in the region

If the IND units are inside structures in the regions and are in passive/passive, and that prevents MC increase, that explains some things for me.

[Pocus]

passive units are ignored for MC and control.

[Captain_Orso]

There are no "neutral" factions in the game; just neutral relationships between factions and factions operating under AI or player control. I don't recall right now, but I think at the start, the IND faction is set to more or less neutral faction relationships with both CSA and USA (maybe slightly more positively disposed toward CSA). Unlike the USA/CSA but like the other factions, AI for IND is turned off until a certain event fires. I *think* the IND faction (or the others) will still establish control of a region where it has qualifying units. The key to keep them running all over the map establishing MC is having their AI turned off most of the time.

I don't remember when the Sioux Uprising event fires off the top off my head, and I don't have the game files handy. Since the IND faction isn't separated out into multiple tribes, when one tribe goes on the warpath, the entire country goes hostile to the USA faction. One minute they're neutral. The next they are at war with you. When they go neutral again, their faction relationship changes such that wherever they managed to establish majority MC, and the CSA has no stake in the territory (that's the key factor), the USA can't enter what has become de facto IND sovereign nation. I *think* the duration of the Sioux event is the only window the USA has under the vanilla game to enter and take the territory near Santa Fe that starts off as IND controlled.

The thing I don't know the answer to is if the following have effects on units establishing MC.

- offensive/defensive/passive stance
- inside a structure in the region

If the IND units are inside structures in the regions and are in passive/passive, and that prevents MC increase, that explains some things for me.

True, the thing that is important is the relationship between factions. But if I'm playing the Union and check the tool-tip of an Indian units and it says "neutral", then that represents the relationship between our factions.

Additionally, if the Union and the IND Nation go to war and the IND Nation gains MC in a region, I see that. IIRC the MC can actually be divided between USA, CSA and IND.

But what I've noted in Western New Mexico is only CSA and USA having MC and Pinos Altos is controlled by the CSA, not the Indian Nation. So if my relations with the Indian Nation is neutral and I am in Western New Mexico where only the CSA and the USA have any MC at all, and Pinos Altos is controlled by the CSA, why is the game not following the rules of capture? Logically the Indian Nation cannot have any affect on capture nor the change of MC, because they are neutral to both the CSA and the USA.

passive units are ignored for MC and control.

But IIRC the Indian stack in Western New Mexico is in DP, but I'll have to check that.

[grimjaw]

IIRC the MC can actually be divided between USA, CSA and IND.

That's been my observation. More than two factions can have MC in a region. I don't know about more than three.

But what I've noted in Western New Mexico is only CSA and USA having MC and Pinos Altos is controlled by the CSA, not the Indian Nation.

I'm only confirming your observation with the code. Pinos Altos is created as a CSA structure. Control is split between CSA/USA, and IND gets nothing. Historically accurate at least ...

Code: Select all

SelectRegion = $OMB_Western_New_Mexico_NM
SetControl = 75
SetLoyalty = 45

SelectFaction = USA
SelectRegion = $OMB_Western_New_Mexico_NM
SetControl = 25
SetLoyalty = 55

SelectFaction = CSA
SelectRegion = $OMB_Western_New_Mexico_NM
Transport = $Track
Development = $Wild
RegionStyle = $csiMiddleEast
CreateStruc
SetType = $City
SetName = Pinos Altos
SetLevel = 1
Apply
PlannedCityName = Pinos Altos

The separate village structure in the same region is owned by the IND faction.

So if my relations with the Indian Nation is neutral and I am in Western New Mexico where only the CSA and the USA have any MC at all, and Pinos Altos is controlled by the CSA, why is the game not following the rules of capture? Logically the Indian Nation cannot have any affect on capture nor the change of MC, because they are neutral to both the CSA and the USA.

Additionally, the only units IND have in that region have "Police = 0" and a *NoCapture* attribute. From what I can tell, the units aren't starting in the structure. InCS = 0 for all of them. However, only a few of them are permanently fixed, and once they go to war some of them might enter structures.

I feel there's something I'm missing somewhere, but I'm at a loss to explain it. Could the IND-owned village be having an effect on capture of other structures in the region?

But IIRC the Indian stack in Western New Mexico is in DP, but I'll have to check that.

I can only speak to the full April campaign, but all the IND faction units in $OMB_Western_New_Mexico_NM start in defensive posture.