winter warfare

[havi]

Hello

I have noticed that attacking at winter is just to easy in this game. My on going poem i just have been kicked out of springfield to blizzard by grant, yes i know grant is a best general at this game but if u walk through thick and thin to jefferson to springfield i would think your troops where totally spend? i had about 500pwr defending springfield and grant had i think 1500pwr stack so yes he had 3:1 ratio what u need to kick entrenched troops out, but in blizzard in tear 1861 when u have been walking there no i don't think so. They did not fight at winter and there where a good reason then and it was the tactcs what they use and that the troops can't maneuver in knee high snow . even today armys do tend not to fight at winter or not the big maneuvers because mens need 2 times more calories and it is really hard to keep the supply going. But it seems not in 1861. So what about we made big penaltys to moving in winter and especially attacking, now this game is exciting as excel no smaller troop can win not even when they have weather with them and entreatments that dons matter. no Thermophyalen fights where smaller force beat bigger one just bring 3:1 ratio and doors open

[FightingBuckeye]

Your men may have retreated for any number of reasons. If you have a lot of volunteers/militia in your force, it's a lot easier to break whereas a veteran soldier knows his best chance at living may lie in staying in formation. Even a battle where you inflict greater casualties could see your force retreat out simply due to the imbalance of numbers alone. Your general could decide that he'd upheld the honor of the flag and he'd done what he could. Yes, in a blizzard the attacker gets a pretty hefty penalty. Against that, battles during a blizzard will start at a very close range. So almost immediately your force would've been subjected to a lot of morale checks. Given the power described and the year, I'm assuming that a good portion of your force were Price's volunteers who would've had a good chance of failing a morale check. A couple failed morale checks could easily spread like dominoes and affect even your steadier troops. And as always there's simple bad luck which can always rear it's head. Maybe you would've won that battle in 9 out of 10 times but you just happened to run into the 10th time. Hard to tell without a battle report.

FYI, I'm not sure what you were saying about the weather towards the end. But the weather does have a pretty big affect on things and you can look at your game manual or this http://www.ageod.net/aacwwiki/Manual:Climate

[havi]

no mr.buckeye i really don't care now what the game manual says, my point is that this game is excel counting not a simulation at cw. In 1861 there would not been any confederate withdraw because there won't be any grant attack if he marches in blizzard he's forces would be exhausted and they would need a good shelter and fires to warm at before they would do anything and year 1861 u just could make that kind of maneuver and i want this game to reflect that in summer or autumn yes u can do that but not in blizzard in winter when there is -15C u just can't fight in that in that time.

[FightingBuckeye]

By that logic I guess Washington couldn't have attacked Trenton then?

Or wait for it, the actual capture of Springfield during the Civil War? Same time frame as well as it was the winter of '61-'62. Winter battles weren't exactly common during the civil war, but they happened. If a player wants to risk a winter attack, then so be it. Yes, a lot of civil war battles or campaigns fought during the winter months led to exhaustion, starvation, disease, etc. But they were fought and the winter months can inflict large cohesion loss on you if you choose to move and fight, but the choice is still yours to make.

[havi]

Yes they happen but what Washington had like 3000men and he didnt march 100of miles , now grant had over 20000men and he marched far away. Yes there where small skirmishes but not large batles and again the same reason they didn't have the organization or suply structure to manage those in 1861. Now u can't say that in winter conditions it allways gives defender great edge even more in CW era because there isn't no tank support or air cover. Think of the cannons how u drag them in blizzard snow up to you eyeball.

P.s. And maybe that is one reason why Washington won at Trenton. Because nobody fought at winter but he did.

[tripax]

Just a note, if anyone can fight in the winter, it would be Grant. He had (offensive) successes at Belmont (Dec 1861), Donelson (Feb 1862), and Chattanooga (Nov 1863) in the colder months. I'm not sure if the game does the best job of simulating reality, but Donelson was won by an attacking army just after a snowstorm and Hood marched very rapidly through rain and sleet just before his disaster at Franklin (Nov 1864), so either scenario should be possible.

[Bill's Boy]

Speaking of Washington, it is generally recognized that he was able to escape the British outside of Trenton and attack their rear at Princeton because the weather turned cold and froze the ground, which allowed him to move his artillery and withdraw his army. In that instance, the cold helped Washington move, though again we're only talking about one night's march.

In the civil war, Fredericksburg, Murfreesboro (or Stones River) and Nashville are examples of large battles fought during the winter. At Nashville, an ice storm precluded the deliberate Thomas from attacking for about a week.

Jefferson City is 140 miles from Springfield. Without a forced march, it will take a 1500 power stack two turns to cover that distance in winter weather. That would be less than 10 miles (14 days of travel) and as little as 5 miles of travel (28 days of travel) per day, assuming the battle took place outside Springfield and not somewhere else in the region closer to Jefferson City. That seems doable and it's not at all inconceivable that a Grant-led army could defeat an inexperienced and out-numbered opponent after a march like that even with considerable straggling and loss of cohesion.

[BattleVonWar]

Weather has a great effect on movement, supply and warfare. Does the game mod that too much/too little? I suppose it works out in the wash for both sides. In the Southern Regions the weather can be quite mild(maybe not to a Southern Boy) for a great deal of the year. Depending... I have lived several years in the South without a winter coat but just a jogging top. Even though there have been some rare cold spells equal to the North nearly. Also once use to that, I had issues adapting, but I was better at it than some people

When the Yankees come down here they adapt poorly, but we do adapt more poor to 'extreme colds'

I read a whole book on "Operation Typhoon," the biggest complaint was not the snow or cold. It was the mud. Repeatedly written about by the soldiers and officers, complained about over and over. That's where things got stuck, granted those were vehicles and horse drawn carts(which isn't much different than the CW in a way.) I think a little bit of snow or frost would have been welcomed by the German Army to help keep their juggernaut moving. Meanwhile mud gave time for the Soviets to mobilize, reinforce, gather back up and strike back.

Very Harsh Cold is just bad on just about anyone except Winter Soldiers. Russians had Winter Soldiers I'd say. We dress well for it in our Army. A lot depends on preparation and an understanding of climate. I have no clue how well Civil War Soldiers were prepped for Winter. I have read by accounts Northern Soldiers got sick in Southern Climates fighting off Islands in the Deep South. Extreme moisture and heat.

Yes they happen but what Washington had like 3000men and he didnt march 100of miles , now grant had over 20000men and he marched far away. Yes there where small skirmishes but not large batles and again the same reason they didn't have the organization or suply structure to manage those in 1861. Now u can't say that in winter conditions it allways gives defender great edge even more in CW era because there isn't no tank support or air cover. Think of the cannons how u drag them in blizzard snow up to you eyeball.

P.s. And maybe that is one reason why Washington won at Trenton. Because nobody fought at winter but he did.

[Rod Smart]

Attacking in winter works in real life too

[Rod Smart]

Winter doesn't affect the FIGHTING
Winter affects the MARCHING

--------------------------

Some of America's greatest battles were fought in the dead of winter

Washington crossing the Delaware
Grant capturing Henry & Donelson
Fredricksburg was in December, followed by the infamous "mud march"
Bastogne in WW2
The "Frozen Chosin" in Korea

[havi]

hmm rod now u are wrong winter affects all even fighting your rifle can freeze your ammunition can freeze everything works slower in winter.

[Rod Smart]

hmm rod now u are wrong winter affects all even fighting your rifle can freeze your ammunition can freeze everything works slower in winter.

Correct. It affects the defender as much as the attacker.

As Buckeye noted, it hinders the defenders artillery because of the decreased ranges.

[Straight Arrow]

I spent some time in Alaska and knocked around a lot in the bush.

Forget problems with machines; keeping your body working can be tough enough.

If you run. You can freeze your lungs; try touching metal with a bare hand. You might leave a chunk of skin and flesh when you pull away. Working up a sweat? That's asking for trouble when the moisture on your skin cools down.

The list goes on and on. The real killing weather is not snow. When you get wet, then chilled, that's the perfect recipe for hypothermia. A cold rain linked with a hard wind can do the trick, no snow necessary.

I'm sure havi could add quite a bit to what living in harsh weather is like.

By the way, an axe chops frozen bacon nicely.

[Cardinal Ape]

If you come from Alaska to spend a winter in Missouri it might be like a summer vacation.. Even for a Minnesota boy like me. The difference in our weather compared to Missouri is huge.

The average winter temperature in Missouri is barely below freezing, and the average snowfall is less than a foot and half for the entire season. Mud would be the dominant factor in such a region.

As a Minnesotan I would personally feel more comfortable and better prepared marching into the snowy plains than into the rainy marshes.

[havi]

well yes it is easier to walk when the ground freezes if u have road blowed but if u march in snow up to you knees you are really spend after a 2 mile and i think u would not march even 5 miles a day in wilderness with all your packages with you, skiing is different thing u can ski over 30miles a day easy with harsh weather but i don't think union army did lot of that in cw. Yes when i was in miliary in winter there where temperatures under -20C and when u but ammos in your magazines they freeze to your hand so no it isn't fun at all, and your rifle would freeze so better remove that oil before u shoot.

[Rod Smart]

If you come from Alaska to spend a winter in Missouri it might be like a summer vacation.. Even for a Minnesota boy like me. The difference in our weather compared to Missouri is huge.

The average winter temperature in Missouri is barely below freezing, and the average snowfall is less than a foot and half for the entire season. Mud would be the dominant factor in such a region.

As a Minnesotan I would personally feel more comfortable and better prepared marching into the snowy plains than into the rainy marshes.

This

"Blizzards" mean different things to different people in different places.

During the nor'easters in New Jersey that drop up to two feet of snow- the temperature is usually 30 degrees, followed by a warm front of 40-50 degrees. While moving wagons would be nearly impossible, the fighting would be easier than in the rain or swamp or 100 degree heat.

[havi]

[ATTACH]33650[/ATTACH]

So harsh it is in living here

[FightingBuckeye]

well yes it is easier to walk when the ground freezes if u have road blowed but if u march in snow up to you knees you are really spend after a 2 mile and i think u would not march even 5 miles a day in wilderness with all your packages with you, skiing is different thing u can ski over 30miles a day easy with harsh weather but i don't think union army did lot of that in cw. Yes when i was in miliary in winter there where temperatures under -20C and when u but ammos in your magazines they freeze to your hand so no it isn't fun at all, and your rifle would freeze so better remove that oil before u shoot.

The going might be tough for the ones in front. But a couple thousand marching soldiers will pack down that snow pretty dang quick. Our division commander decided he'd take the rare opportunity with all the BCTs actually in garrison and not in the sand box or at a training area by doing a whole divisonal 'morale' run. This was at Ft Carson in I want to say December a couple of years back, maybe November. Anyway, it dropped 6 inches of fresh snow and was still coming down lightly when we kicked off the run. By the time my brigade ran over the ground, the snow was nicely packed down for us. Granted it was only 6 inches, but it wouldn't have mattered to us in our brigade if it'd been 6 inches or 2 feet. Rotate out your front companies and maybe put some cavalry units up front and you're set to clear the way for the follow-on units plus the arty and logistics tail.

[DrPostman]

The Battle of Eylau was fought during a driving snowstorm. Battles like that
can and do happen.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/199418/Battle-of-Eylau

[havi]

hmm buck eye sorry to ruin your rambo moment but came here we can go in winter in the wilderness but fullbacks on and start it would be crazy with out skies, of course u can rotate companies up front and use horses but still u need to keep pauses have bonfires on the side and cooks to made food all the time to keep your body warm. Of course it can happen but then still u need to attack against etntreched enemy who sit behinds fortifications so u need all the stars with right places and luck but yes it is possible but not in 9/10.
https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talvisota
look there finish fought against soviets in 1939 winter soviets lost about 250.000 men (actually more but thats soviets number somewhere they sai it is over 500.000) in 107 days attacking against entrechmends yes finnish have MG but soviets had tanks and air superiority as artillery superiority and still no luck.

[FightingBuckeye]

A) There's a HUGE difference between a typical blizzard in Finland and one that typically takes places in Missouri. http://www.currentresults.com/Weather/Missouri/annual-snowfall.php
B) The Finnish beat the odds by using their mobility to attack the flanks of their enemy while the Soviets were basically road bound. Yes, the Soviets attacked entrenched troops at various times. But a lot of times it was in clear weather that allowed Finnish artillery to play an important part in repulsing the enemy.
C) The Union and CSA were about even in terms of mobility as neither side used really used skis throughout the war.
D) Your example still shows that fighting in winter conditions is possible. At times the Finns were on the defensive and at times they switched over to the offensive. But fighting occurred at numerous times despite your insistence that it shouldn't be possible.

[havi]

A) There's a HUGE difference between a typical blizzard in Finland and one that typically takes places in Missouri. http://www.currentresults.com/Weather/Missouri/annual-snowfall.php
B) The Finnish beat the odds by using their mobility to attack the flanks of their enemy while the Soviets were basically road bound. Yes, the Soviets attacked entrenched troops at various times. But a lot of times it was in clear weather that allowed Finnish artillery to play an important part in repulsing the enemy.
C) The Union and CSA were about even in terms of mobility as neither side used really used skis throughout the war.
D) Your example still shows that fighting in winter conditions is possible. At times the Finns were on the defensive and at times they switched over to the offensive. But fighting occurred at numerous times despite your insistence that it shouldn't be possible.

a) yes probably u r right in missou its warmer than here in finland
b) now u really don't know what u write at, yes there where couple of motti fights famous at raate road but after russians tried that couple of time they stopped. And in winter war finish arty didn't have counter action at all because they didn't have ammunition in their pipes they usually had 2 fireloads what they shot so not much.
c) yep right again
d) yes it is possible but it should help the defender more especially in year 1861 when they attacked and fought at rows, and no I'm not saying it isn't possible but far from your supply base at year 1861 at wilderness it should be pretty hard. i have actually seen in this game that division sitting in top of mountain in blizzard had have full supply in there.
But lets stop cock-fighting about this my opinion is that it should be harder to attack in winter and give defender bigger bonus and u say no so thats that.

[FightingBuckeye]

I'm curious as to the supply issue you brought up. Was it this version? How close to a depot was that unit? Was the unit on a RR? And what was the supply settings in the game? It couldn't have been the harshest weather possible as the game will kick any force in mountainous terrain to a nearby region that's not suffering the worst weather in mountainous terrain.

Playing without easy supply and historical attrition, it's very easy for a force to start losing supply fast in mountainous terrain during the winter months. It's still possible to keep them in supply if there's a nearby depot though. Especially if your opponent is constantly swapping out supply wagons to keep his force in supply. I don't know if the AI has an easier time with supply or not, but against a human opponent it's asking for trouble to keep a force in some mountains during the winter. Big reason why not too many experienced CSA players make a play for attacking into WV.

[havi]

it was a pbem it was that next town under springfield in arkansas in the mountain territory really don't remember where was closest union depo i think it was in springfield and historical attrition no easy suply ad it was 1.04 if i remember it right. no he didn't send there any carts or suply he just somehow got the spy flowing in the mountains we were wondering that to.

[Rod Smart]

Gettysburg was in the local news today, which reminds me:

When I was there for the 125th reenactment, it was almost 100 degrees. With high humidity. In woolen uniforms.
I'd rather fight in 30 degree snow flurries, than ridiculously oppressive heat.

[BattleVonWar]

Working on the race tracks throughout the North and South, spending 12 hours out walking in the mud I never had a problem in 100 degree/90% plus humidity. You can deal if you can acquire a tolerance. Now other people who come into that type of weather I see get heat stroke fast. Now as far as living in PA in the Winter, that just makes the bones shake frantic. Without proper clothing and food you will whither. Cold = the enemy of an army. Young healthy people generally endure heat easier being as humans are tropical animals we adapt more quickly. Not that we cannot adapt to cold but high calories/proper cold weather clothing/proper cold weather survival gear is a requirement. Meanwhile just strip down to shoes/britches and you can survive the heat.

~Florida makes even me sick with moisture. I cannot stand that inland feeling of wet shorts after 15 minutes of work.

Gettysburg was in the local news today, which reminds me:

When I was there for the 125th reenactment, it was almost 100 degrees. With high humidity. In woolen uniforms.
I'd rather fight in 30 degree snow flurries, than ridiculously oppressive heat.

[DrPostman]

I live in Memphis TN. From June to early October I want to live in Alaska.

[DaddyRess]

What was the games attrition level set to? If it wasn't historical then you can't be upset that they did not suffer historical attrition.

[havi]

What was the games attrition level set to? If it wasn't historical then you can't be upset that they did not suffer historical attrition.

historical attrition always mate

[BattleVonWar]

That's why they invented A/C and we Southern folk live next to it if we're the lucky ones. :P Either young and healthy or (hears his A/C running now) The South is beautiful in October, November... but don't you miss those cute bug noises? :P

I live in Memphis TN. From June to early October I want to live in Alaska.