How useful is the light artillery?

[Paule3000]

I mostly try to avoid building and using the inf brigades with 6lb batteries, since I adopted the dedicated arty divisions doctrine. But how useful and cost-effective are the light arty batteries considered by more experienced players? Do you use them? If yes, mostly in independent brigades and similar small units or in your divisions?

And btw which kind of guns are you mainly using generally and for special situations and indications? I myself use mainly divisions made up of more or less entirely 12lb guns, with one or two 20lb's here and there.

Any thoughts or recommendations to help me master this awesome game?

[VigaBrand]

Hi,
light Atry can be upgraded to 12 pounders. So I built some and hope for the upgrade.

[Gray Fox]

I believe that the 6-lbers in AACW upgrade to 12-lber, but if I understand Captain Orso's lamentations in other threads this was not repeated in CW2.

So 6-lbers stay 6-lbers. IIRC, all artillery do at least 2 hit points of damage, but the larger guns do much more cohesion damage. So I use 20-lbers for my elite stacks and 12 or 10 lbers for regulars. The 12-lber has the best to-hit numbers for defense. Some terrain/weather can give a region a shorter max range than that of the big rifled guns, so they end up not firing until the 12's can fire. If your artillery Division has one of your better commanders, then he will give a bonus to them every round except round zero when the assault force mix it up at bayonet range. An officer with the artillery ability helps too. The 6-lbers I get stuck with do get a bonus to their to-hit chance if they are entrenched, so I use these exclusively with garrison units.

"It's not just the size that counts, it's how you use it."

[minipol]

6lb'ers are useful to build forts. That's their main use for me.
And as the CSA you cannot always avoid them.

[Straight Arrow]

How about using 6-lbers to raise and hold the entrenchment level over 4 in your fall back positions?

[minipol]

I use militia to hold entrenchments alive. Do you need artillery to keep the entrenchments over level 4?
If this is a limitation, then sure, using 6 lb'ers for this purpose is a good move in my book.

[RebelYell]

They have the cheapest replacements, I dont think you should avoid them as divisional artillery like plague.

And they seem now upgrade to 12lb even inside brigades, can someone confirm?

[FightingBuckeye]

They have the cheapest replacements, I dont think you should avoid them as divisional artillery like plague.

And they seem now upgrade to 12lb even inside brigades, can someone confirm?

They used to upgrade to 12 lbers in AACW as stated earlier. Kentucky and Tennessee both provide the CSA with 2inf/12lb brigades, so it's possible you're seeing one of those units?

As far as the original post, in addition to the uses people already stated I am more willing to have 6lbers out in the FW due to its lesser importance. Elsewhere, the North gets plenty of 6lbers (singly or within brigades) that I don't build anymore as I don't want to dilute my firepower further. And as the South, you really can't get away with not building brigades with 6lbers, so any stand alone batteries I do build will be larger caliber guns.

[BattleVonWar]

The issue I feel with CW2 for instance in building a Division at least, you don't know what the range and distances are on the guns available in the force pool. 6/10/12/20/Gatling/Heavy(mostly antishipping) plus silver/bronze... Though the prevailing theory seems to be silver is better.. As many as possible. Avoid building Infantry Brigades if possible with added artillery that or assign these brigades to reserves(as you will have far higher losses and your Divisions will have fewer bayonets) for instance during snow do all cannons fire the same range. Are all wooded and hills terrain the same? Nobody has ever written anything concrete I've read here.


Mostly people are just guessing what is the value on these various weapons. I love small artillery and bronze artillery as the CSA though, as you will have a hard time outfitting divisions before you have heavy industry with anything else and you can afford these cheaply to put units into the field. Otherwise the CSA has many Corps with no Artillery Divisions!

[RebelYell]

The issue I feel with CW2 for instance in building a Division at least, you don't know what the range and distances are on the guns available in the force pool. 6/10/12/20/Gatling/Heavy(mostly antishipping) plus silver/bronze... Though the prevailing theory seems to be silver is better.. As many as possible. Avoid building Infantry Brigades if possible with added artillery that or assign these brigades to reserves(as you will have far higher losses and your Divisions will have fewer bayonets) for instance during snow do all cannons fire the same range. Are all wooded and hills terrain the same? Nobody has ever written anything concrete I've read here.


Mostly people are just guessing what is the value on these various weapons. I love small artillery and bronze artillery as the CSA though, as you will have a hard time outfitting divisions before you have heavy industry with anything else and you can afford these cheaply to put units into the field. Otherwise the CSA has many Corps with no Artillery Divisions!

You only need artillery divisions in the Army level, just give 2-3 10lb units for the Corp at most, naturally if it operates independently as an "army" then you should give it more artillery.
I dont think people are guessing, they know the ranges and elements involved pretty well from the unit panel and the terrain modifiers, there are threads in the forum with discussion on these.

If you fight large battles and especially attack in open terrain you need 20lb rifled guns, there is no real substitute.
10lb rifled is a good sidekick but 20lb rifled also works well in defense, 10lb rifled is a good offensive gun for any sized force and useful for fortifications also.

If you defend in terrain suitable for that, especially if entrenched you can use only 12lb smoothbores, they will do a lot of damage.

The best allround gun considering stats and average battle terrain is the 12lb smoothbore, 1-2 units in every division will not make you loose a battle, I would bet the other way around.

[tripax]

The artillery upgrade bug has been mentioned on the technical support page, here. Basically, the artillery upgrade script is written to upgrade artillery models as they were used in AACW before artillery could be captured as in CW2. Now that the common, CMN, faction is used for artillery, if artillery is to upgrade as in AACW, the various events file needs to be changed so the CMN models are upgraded rather than the USA and CSA models. I'm not sure but I believe that there was a decision no longer have artillery upgrade and that is why the events file wasn't changed.

[RebelYell]

The artillery upgrade bug has been mentioned on the technical support page, here. Basically, the artillery upgrade script is written to upgrade artillery models as they were used in AACW before artillery could be captured as in CW2. Now that the common, CMN, faction is used for artillery, if artillery is to upgrade as in AACW, the various events file needs to be changed so the CMN models are upgraded rather than the USA and CSA models. I'm not sure but I believe that there was a decision no longer have artillery upgrade and that is why the events file wasn't changed.

Hope someone fixes this soon.

[FightingBuckeye]

I don't think there's anything broken with the non upgrade of 6lbers. I think it was a conscious decision to remove that from the game. It makes sense since you don't pay anything to upgrade units. A line unit would become more combat effective as it gained experience and this is reflected in a unit potentially going from a volunteer militia to line infantry over the course of the war. On the other side of the coin, cannon aren't going to magically become a larger caliber on their own.

What I wouldn't mind seeing is a special order to upgrade those barrels. You could pay a portion or even the full price of a lone 12lb battery, either directly or through the replacement pool. And then it'd take a turn or two in order to upgrade. Maybe only allow it to happen in certain level cities or depots. This would retain the experience level of the unit and would allow us (the godlike general/president) to make a cost benefit decision on whether we want to pay the price or not.

[RebelYell]

I don't think there's anything broken with the non upgrade of 6lbers. I think it was a conscious decision to remove that from the game. It makes sense since you don't pay anything to upgrade units. A line unit would become more combat effective as it gained experience and this is reflected in a unit potentially going from a volunteer militia to line infantry over the course of the war. On the other side of the coin, cannon aren't going to magically become a larger caliber on their own.

What I wouldn't mind seeing is a special order to upgrade those barrels. You could pay a portion or even the full price of a lone 12lb battery, either directly or through the replacement pool. And then it'd take a turn or two in order to upgrade. Maybe only allow it to happen in certain level cities or depots. This would retain the experience level of the unit and would allow us (the godlike general/president) to make a cost benefit decision on whether we want to pay the price or not.

In real life ANV just sent them to be recast at first opportunity, there is a cost involved also, they eat more expensive replacements.

[FightingBuckeye]

In real life ANV just sent them to be recast at first opportunity, there is a cost involved also, they eat more expensive replacements.

Even recasting existing barrels would cost something. It might be cheaper then making one from scratch, but there's still a cost involved. And yes, upgraded units require a different and more expensive replacement model and I have no issue with that. But there's no upfront cost in order to upgrade them from one model to another while there would be some cost in upgrading a 6lber to a 12lber.

[RebelYell]

Even recasting existing barrels would cost something. It might be cheaper then making one from scratch, but there's still a cost involved. And yes, upgraded units require a different and more expensive replacement model and I have no issue with that. But there's no upfront cost in order to upgrade them from one model to another while there would be some cost in upgrading a 6lber to a 12lber.

If possible turn the elements depleted when upgrade happens, red, and then fill them up.
Even if not possible I dont think it is a major issue as artillery in game is very abstracted and generic anyways.

The artillery in general could use some more loving attention.

[Ace]

I used to wonder how useful are 6lbs until I looked a bit into battle logs. Once I looked under the hood I realised they are next to worthless. CSA 6lb will almost never hit on offense, and only rarely will hit on defense. Brigade 6lbs are essentially a dead weight.
They will do some damage however if entrenched

[Keeler]

Since the decision was made to prevent the upgrading of 6lbers, I hope that in the future the brigades that use these will be reconsidered as well.

As it is now most players avoid building them early in the war, unless they have a specific task for them such as garrisons. By the later stages of the war, you've used up most of your other brigades and have to resort to building them, especially if you are scraping for cavalry elements. So, unintentionally players are being channeled towards recruiting outdated and overall useless artillery. You must then use these in your active armies or try to shuffling units around, which I consider a level of micromanagement which could be avoided.

Two solutions I see would be to a) separate the 6lb artillery from brigades, making them independently recruitable units but keeping the overall number available b) removing these units from the recruit pool about November 1862 (by this time both the AOP and ANV had phased them out) and replacing them with new units, either brigades with integrated 12lbs or pure infantry brigades, infantry-cavalry and independent 12lb units. While neither really reduces micromanagement, they at least gives the player a bit more freedom in how to fill out divisions later in the war.

Additionally, since they no longer upgrade I would like to see the elite brigades with 6lb artillery reexamined as well. It seems illogical to have the most powerful units saddled with dead weight. Either have them be 12lbers or remove them.

Finally. with the introduction of counter-battery fire will we someday see the 3in ordnance rifle?

[BattleVonWar]

Hmm, you seem a little confidant in what artillery does and what is useful and useless. Ranges found in the unit information panel tell you what precisely? How do you correlate that in battle, terrain, weather, fortifications, etc...

20 pounders take more cohesion away, help hit well dug in troops I have read. Though I dug back a long while and the exact figures on what each Artillery Piece does seems some sort of Greek that nobody really understands. Certainly is no in any manual. This game could use a strategy guide that was simplified for the simpleminded such as myself. :P plus I know a few here who agree...

You only need artillery divisions in the Army level, just give 2-3 10lb units for the Corp at most, naturally if it operates independently as an "army" then you should give it more artillery.
I dont think people are guessing, they know the ranges and elements involved pretty well from the unit panel and the terrain modifiers, there are threads in the forum with discussion on these.

If you fight large battles and especially attack in open terrain you need 20lb rifled guns, there is no real substitute.
10lb rifled is a good sidekick but 20lb rifled also works well in defense, 10lb rifled is a good offensive gun for any sized force and useful for fortifications also.

If you defend in terrain suitable for that, especially if entrenched you can use only 12lb smoothbores, they will do a lot of damage.

The best allround gun considering stats and average battle terrain is the 12lb smoothbore, 1-2 units in every division will not make you loose a battle, I would bet the other way around.

[RebelYell]

Since the decision was made to prevent the upgrading of 6lbers, I hope that in the future the brigades that use these will be reconsidered as well.

As it is now most players avoid building them early in the war, unless they have a specific task for them such as garrisons. By the later stages of the war, you've used up most of your other brigades and have to resort to building them, especially if you are scraping for cavalry elements. So, unintentionally players are being channeled towards recruiting outdated and overall useless artillery. You must then use these in your active armies or try to shuffling units around, which I consider a level of micromanagement which could be avoided.

Two solutions I see would be to a) separate the 6lb artillery from brigades, making them independently recruitable units but keeping the overall number available b) removing these units from the recruit pool about November 1862 (by this time both the AOP and ANV had phased them out) and replacing them with new units, either brigades with integrated 12lbs or pure infantry brigades, infantry-cavalry and independent 12lb units. While neither really reduces micromanagement, they at least gives the player a bit more freedom in how to fill out divisions later in the war.

Additionally, since they no longer upgrade I would like to see the elite brigades with 6lb artillery reexamined as well. It seems illogical to have the most powerful units saddled with dead weight. Either have them be 12lbers or remove them.

Finally. with the introduction of counter-battery fire will we someday see the 3in ordnance rifle?

I dont think there was a decision made concerning 6lb guns, I have not seen a statement that this is permanent?

I agree having pure infantry brigades would be good but that will not happen most likely.



I also agree that 3in ordnance should be in the game for Union, they should replace the Gatling guns produced in PA.

I would raise counter battery fire effectiveness for the batteries that are loose in the stack, lower for those that are not, so that you can affect to what guns you want to use for that role.

This would also make possible for the CSA to capture those babies at times.

[RebelYell]

Hmm, you seem a little confidant in what artillery does and what is useful and useless. Ranges found in the unit information panel tell you what precisely? How do you correlate that in battle, terrain, weather, fortifications, etc...

20 pounders take more cohesion away, help hit well dug in troops I have read. Though I dug back a long while and the exact figures on what each Artillery Piece does seems some sort of Greek that nobody really understands. Certainly is no in any manual. This game could use a strategy guide that was simplified for the simpleminded such as myself. :P plus I know a few here who agree...

The ranges in the information panel are for good weather and good terrain, they fly out the window when one does not apply.

You only really need to know that 10lb and 20lb rifled are needed for offense and counter battery fire, 12lb is for all situations and especially defense.

Use 12lb and 20lb and form an "artillery division" in Army level, use more 20lb as you will have 12lb in your Corps and Divisions.

Use 1-3 units of 10lb and 12lb loose in your Corps, use more units and form an "artillery division" if the Corps is operating independently without Army support.

Use 1-2 units of 6lb -12lb inside your Divisions, this is mostly a limitation of the Brigades you can build and get via events.

That is all you need to know about artillery basically.

[BattleVonWar]

Rebel, interesting but it would seem that loose cannon would be a pretty bad idea most of the time if you can assign them into a corp/army you save Command Points.

I didn't know the 12s were good on defense, I usually stack bronze 12s in my backup Army/Corps..silver in my frontline Army/Corp. Of course if I have nothing else, I rather they were in the front line.
Try to stuff my 6ers in swamps : ) especially as the CSA, somewhere I read they still are fair in that terrain, but I could be wrong.

I see a fault in stacking Brigades that have Artillery in the frontline as mentioned... (you lose both to attrition and to combat losses more easily this way and don't benefit from a devoted Artillery Commander with good ratings)

The ranges in the information panel are for good weather and good terrain, they fly out the window when one does not apply.

You only really need to know that 10lb and 20lb rifled are needed for offense and counter battery fire, 12lb is for all situations and especially defense.

Use 12lb and 20lb and form an "artillery division" in Army level, use more 20lb as you will have 12lb in your Corps and Divisions.

Use 1-3 units of 10lb and 12lb loose in your Corps, use more units and form an "artillery division" if the Corps is operating independently without Army support.

Use 1-2 units of 6lb -12lb inside your Divisions, this is mostly a limitation of the Brigades you can build and get via events.

That is all you need to know about artillery basically.

[RebelYell]

Rebel, interesting but it would seem that loose cannon would be a pretty bad idea most of the time if you can assign them into a corp/army you save Command Points.

I didn't know the 12s were good on defense, I usually stack bronze 12s in my backup Army/Corps..silver in my frontline Army/Corp. Of course if I have nothing else, I rather they were in the front line.
Try to stuff my 6ers in swamps : ) especially as the CSA, somewhere I read they still are fair in that terrain, but I could be wrong.

I see a fault in stacking Brigades that have Artillery in the frontline as mentioned... (you lose both to attrition and to combat losses more easily this way and don't benefit from a devoted Artillery Commander with good ratings)

The loose artillery in the Corps will always fire at the biggest target in the enemy stack, usually the enemy Division with biggest PWR number.
Naturally after 4 artillery units the Command Point cost comes to play and you can form an "artillery division", if you have the leaders and artillery, the CSA usually does not.

The Union can afford having "artillery divisions" in Army and all Corps, but in usual battle most of them will not fire a shot due to frontage limitations.
That is even more deadweight than having 6lb units inside Divisions, Union can afford that but CSA players shake their heads over this type of stuff.

In real life smoothbores had better rate of fire than rifled guns, maybe 6lb and 12lb should have a rate of fire value 3.
That would bring some value to 6lb guns, the rate of fire is used in the first round/hour of battle, in the later rounds all artillery will fire only 1 time per round.

[RebelYell]

A Union Army carrying huge "artillery divisions" in all Corps cut of from its supply by some reason will have to start spiking those guns very soon.
You need enough artillery, anything over that is a huge supply and replacement drain.

[ArmChairGeneral]

Unless you are beseiging a structure, then you want as much artillery as you can. Though they will not all join an actual battle battle due to frontage, all of them count toward the siege roll. Breaches are gold!

[Rod Smart]

If I understand the riverine supply mechanism correctly, an entrenched 6 pounder on a river closes the river just as much as coastal artillery would.

[Gray Fox]

The terrain map overlay, (press the "7" key) changes the map to relay range information. So as already posted, clear terrain and clear weather allow each element to fire to their max range as listed on their appropriate unit menu. Other terrain types limit max range, so a Union 20-lber and a CSA 12-lber both have a max range of 4 in the Richmond region. Some severe weather types limit max range on a per element basis. So a blizzard may show a -1 range modifier that would reduce artillery, rifle and musket max range by one.

From the AGEOD Wiki for to hit chance:

EM = Entrenchment Modifier (artillery only): 1+Level of entrenchment/10

So a lowly 6-lber entrenched to level 6 gets a 60% increase to the overall chance to hit in combat.

A final point to not overlook about frontage. If you have X number of 6-lbers in your Divisions, and X number of 20-lbers in your stack and you can only use X number of artillery to fill the frontage, then half of the time the light guns will fire and the heavy guns you scraped resources together to purchase will sit idle.

[FightingBuckeye]

I usually try to have an equal split between bronze and silver guns in order to have a balance of offensive vs defensive firepower. I'll prioritize 20lbers over 10lbers for their better stats (especially cohesion hits), but you don't always have the resources or force pool to recruit those types of units. I don't like to have loose units as they're not efficient use of CP, they're more susceptible to capture, and they don't get the benefit of a commanding general except the stack leader. I will on occasion though if I'm short on generals, but it's not a situation I like to find myself in and will work to rectify it as soon as possible.

And good point about the elite units with 6lbers, they're hardly what you'd expect elite units to be lugging around. As mentioned, they do alright if dug in. As Rod mentioned, I'll use them for river duty to not only close the riverine supply but also make the enemy pay for using the river. I still would like to see some way of manually upgrading 6lbers into 12lbers. They'd still be paid for and it would be on the player to decide if he wants to spend his resources on upgrading 6lbers or building something else.

[BigDuke66]

Something should be done here.
I don't mind that 6 pounders do not upgrade, but why am I stuck building them within my brigades for the rest of the war?
AFAIk the were used 61-62 and some were even produced at that time but in 63 they seem to be gone.
At least on a Union OOB for Gettysburg I do not see a single 6 pounder mentioned, they are all 12 pounder and rifled guns.
I think by 1863 all the brigades should be updated to no longer contain any light artillery.

[Captain_Orso]

Don't just complain, do something!

Go here Artillery: In or Out?, take the pole, make your opinion known, make suggestions, have a beer