CW2 unit progress/upgrading

[Smitzer52]

There is a limited information in the manual about unit upgrading/experience so I put a few questions here:

1) When the upgrading starts and what are the possible levels for units (early-late) ?

2) How does it compare to experience? For example I have experienced CSA regiments and Union gets upgraded units first how does it compare in combat?

3) How much it actually matters in game? I am playing main campaign as CSA, slowly grinding forward...now in early ´62. Do I have to worry timewise being overwhelmed with superior units by USA?

Bonus question: are there gatling guns in-game for the union? Seriously no idea here, if yes then

Every bit helps.

[Merlin]

1) AFAIK, units just get better equipment. It all happens in 1863, with no guaranteed date for any single element or element type.

2) It doesn't. Go look at the difference between two brigades of the same type and equipment which have different colored stars in the lower left corner of the unit card. They have different offensive/defensive fire values, assault values, etc.

3) It can matter a great deal. Divisions composed exclusively of gold star brigades will have roughly 200 more power than their no-star counterparts. Veterans are great combat assets, as they should be. With good divisional leaders, it's actually possible to get near 1,000 power divisions this way.

Bonus: Yes. They're in the artillery filter and can only be recruited in PA and NY. If you choose to build them, assign them to garrison divisions likely to be hit by cavalry raids. Forrest will be in for a big surprise.

[Durk]

Ah Merlin, I was hoping you would reply. Here are own thoughts.

These are puzzling questions.

These are the two items over which you have control in training officers and combat.

Two types of training officers:

Training Officer If the commander, will train up to two regiments of Conscripts to regular soldier every turn.

Training Master Provides 1 experience point every turn to all the troops in the Stack by drilling them.

Each combat, winning or losing gains experience poinst.

Upgrading
As new equipment becomes available (starting in 1862), elements (sub-units) are automatically upgraded into other, more effective types (e.g. early to late cavalry). This mostly affects the defensive rating of Units, simulating the increased difficulty of attacking positions defended by troops equipped with modern rapidfire weapons. The USA has a distinct advantage in this area, especially late in the
conflict.

To better understand. Select a few units you are going to monitor. Choose at least one under a training officer/master. Choose a couple before battle is engage. Look at their individual qualities in the unit display panel associated with each unit.

Yes there are Gatling guns and most Union players like to buy them.

[Smitzer52]

Thx guys, so experience and drilling is the way to go then.

And about the gatlings, let´s say I really want them as CSA, if I capture NY or Pensylvania can I buy them?

[Captain_Orso]

You guys are mixing 3 different things up.

Firstly, without looking details up, as you know there are several different 'families' of infantry:, for example, militia, line infantry (to which conscripts also belong) and Zouaves. Each 'family' of infantry can have more than one model 'type'. Early in the war the 'types' of one 'family' can be identical, but are not necessarily.

Starting simple, militia (to which volunteers also belong) and conscripts each can train-up. This represents these regiments receiving additional field training by a Training Officer. Their models with then be replaced by the appropriate model denoted in their 'TrainUpg' parameter. These model 'types' can be different depending the the original model 'type'.

All regiments and batteries can also gain eXperience Points (XP) randomly over time, through battle and though Training Masters. Randomly throughout the game regiments can train-up; the greater their XP's the greater the chance of training-up. This training-up works then the same as being trained by a Training Officer.

Even if regiments don't train-up through XP, with each Experience Level (stars shown in their element display window) their quality with improve in different aspects.

So there are two different ways to train-up.

Regiments can also be technically upgraded. This represents them receiving new weaponry with for example higher rates of fire. Early War Cavalry TechUpgrades for example to Late War Cavalry when they are outfitted with Spencer Rifles. These events

These technical upgrades take place per events and do not change the 'family' of the regiments, just their weaponry.

Union infantry start tech-upgrading in June '62 with a 35% chance per turn, each turn. In '63 the chance raises to between 50 and 75%. Starting in '64 there is a 100% chance, which means that all newly purchased regiments will already be upgraded by the time their training is completed.

Union cavalry start tech-upgrading in Jan '63 with a 35% chance, but not each turn. Each theater has around 8 specific turn in '63 when the upgrades take place. The turns vary between the theaters and overlap at times. Starting in '64 there is a 100% chance of upgrading.

In Aug '62 Union Monitors start upgrading to a somewhat better type.

For the South, cavalry starts upgrading in June '62, but with only a 7% chance. In '63 the chance goes up to 15% and in '64 up to 30%.

Confederate infantry start upgrading in June '62 with a 35% chance. In '63 the chance goes up to between 65 and 75% and in '64 up to 85%, with the exception of Zousaves which have a 100% chance.

Currently the 6lb-er artillery upgrades do not work. This has already be reported, but there seems to be no move to implementing the simple fix to this, so I guess it's WAD.

[Merlin]

You guys are mixing 3 different things up.

Firstly, without looking details up, as you know there are several different 'families' of infantry:, for example, militia, line infantry (to which conscripts also belong) and Zouaves. Each 'family' of infantry can have more than one model 'type'. Early in the war the 'types' of one 'family' can be identical, but are not necessarily.

Starting simple, militia (to which volunteers also belong) and conscripts each can train-up. This represents these regiments receiving additional field training by a Training Officer. Their models with then be replaced by the appropriate model denoted in their 'TrainUpg' parameter. These model 'types' can be different depending the the original model 'type'.

Yup, that's what the Training Officer trait does, no more, no less.

All regiments and batteries can also gain eXperience Points (XP) randomly over time, through battle and though Training Masters. Randomly throughout the game regiments can train-up; the greater their XP's the greater the chance of training-up. This training-up works then the same as being trained by a Training Officer.

Kind-of/sort-of. A Training Officer will upgrade two elements per turn to regular level, so a brigade composed of one conscript, one volunteer, and one artillery element will become one volunteer, one regular, and one artillery after one single turn. Battle, particularly a seriously decisive one, will be far, far better than training.

A Training Master will give 1 XP to every unit under its authority every turn. Want to know why that 3-0-0 King (Union general) is useful? That's it.

So there are two different ways to train-up.

Regiments can also be technically upgraded. This represents them receiving new weaponry with for example higher rates of fire. Early War Cavalry TechUpgrades for example to Late War Cavalry when they are outfitted with Spencer Rifles. These events

These technical upgrades take place per events and do not change the 'family' of the regiments, just their weaponry.

Union infantry start tech-upgrading in June '62 with a 35% chance per turn, each turn. In '63 the chance raises to between 50 and 75%. Starting in '64 there is a 100% chance, which means that all newly purchased regiments will already be upgraded by the time their training is completed.

Union cavalry start tech-upgrading in Jan '63 with a 35% chance, but not each turn. Each theater has around 8 specific turn in '63 when the upgrades take place. The turns vary between the theaters and overlap at times. Starting in '64 there is a 100% chance of upgrading.

In Aug '62 Union Monitors start upgrading to a somewhat better type.

For the South, cavalry starts upgrading in June '62, but with only a 7% chance. In '63 the chance goes up to 15% and in '64 up to 30%.

Confederate infantry start upgrading in June '62 with a 35% chance. In '63 the chance goes up to between 65 and 75% and in '64 up to 85%, with the exception of Zousaves which have a 100% chance.

Currently the 6lb-er artillery upgrades do not work. This has already be reported, but there seems to be no move to implementing the simple fix to this, so I guess it's WAD.

No, judging from AACW, the last is far from WAD and will eventually be changed. That would also juxtapose with the fact that almost no 6lb. guns existed in the Union armies by 1864.

[Smitzer52]

Thank you guys. This clarified what things I can influence and what not. The upgrading seems fair enough, CSA has lower industrial yield so it should be at a disadvantage.

[Gray Fox]

Here's some tips on how to use these game mechanics to your advantage.

Three conscript infantry regiments cost the same in money and WS as four militia/volunteer regiments. Both upgrade to essentially the same line infantry regiment. So I try to have a production line of 6 militia/volunteers per turn being upgraded by McClellan/Halleck/Sigel and skip buying conscript regiments.

You place a new brigade on the map that takes several turns to finish building. If it is stacked with a Master Trainer, then it will acrue experience points (just points, not necessarily stars) every turn while it is locked in place. I usually place an HQ unit in Philly or NYC and stack all such new units with them to get a little experience.

If you stack early conscript cavalry or mounted infantry with McClellan/Halleck/Sigel as soon as late cavalry are available, then they upgrade automatically to late cav.

Cavalry get experience stars pretty quick. This improves the number of police points the cavalry have a lot. If you have 100 police points in any region, then the region will automatically improve in loyalty one point per turn. With fewer than 100 points, then the chance of improving loyalty is a percentage, e.g., 50 police points gets you a 50% chance. Supposedly, a region with 100 loyalty produces 50% more resources. Thus, a reserve cavalry Corps with a few experience stars in the right place for a while may get a region pumping out more cash/WS.

Good luck!

[Rod Smart]

Training master doesn't seem to work for me.

For example: Bragg is a training master, and also a crap general. I put him "out of the way" in Norfolk, expecting the half division he was with to be trained to superstar status by 63. Two years later, the guys he was with were still only silver.


I've experienced similar non-training with those training master generals, but that's the one specific time I purposely left one alone for years, with zero results.

[Captain_Orso]

8<
Kind-of/sort-of. A Training Officer will upgrade two elements per turn to regular level,

Yes, to 2 elements; I neglected to state that. To "regular level" it depends on the model training-up.

Training-up is only to that model which is listed in the model's TrainUpg parameter. I did state this incorrectly, by saying that it's always to the next higher family.

For example, model '234USAState Militia.mdl' has the alias 'mdl_USA_Mil6', which is used in the game and events to select elements of this type. It uses 'mdl_CMN_Mil' as a template, which means that nearly all of its characteristics are taken from that common militia model, which is used by both the Union and the CS. 'mdl_USA_Mil6' is in the 'famMilitia' family and has a 'ProgRate' of 50. 'ProgRate' is the Progression Rate. This means that model 'mdl_USA_Mil6' needs 50 XP before earning its first EL (Experience Level star), which is very high, but typical for militia.

Model 'mdl_USA_Mil6' has "TrainUpg = $mdl_USA_Inf5", so if trained by a Training Officer--or through the random/XP process--it will train-up to a 'mdl_USA_Inf5'. 'mdl_USA_Inf5' is a conscript model, which is line infantry, and which itself will train-up to 'mdl_USA_Inf1', which is the model used by those regular army single infantry regiments mostly allocated per evens and scenario setup and generally named '1st US' etc.

Model '229USAVolunteers.mdl' is a Volunteers model and has the alias 'mdl_USA_Mil1' and belongs to family 'famMilitia', the same as 'mdl_USA_Mil6'. However it uses the 'mdl_CMN_Vol' template, which has a ProgRate of 15 and differs from the 'mdl_CMN_Mil' in many other ways. Model 'mdl_USA_Mil1' trains-up to 'mdl_USA_Inf1' the same as the above mentioned 'mdl_USA_Inf5' model.

So to get a 'mdl_USA_Mil6' regiment trained up from militia to regular army line infantry, it must be trained twice, once to conscript and then to regular line infantry.

so a brigade composed of one conscript, one volunteer, and one artillery element will become one volunteer, one regular, and one artillery after one single turn.

No, it will become a brigade with 2 regular line infantry and 1 artillery.

Battle, particularly a seriously decisive one, will be far, far better than training.

A regiment can gain a lot of XP in one battle--1 for every 2 hits scored by it, minus 1 for each hit scored against it--, but the lower the quality of an element the less likely it is to be chosen to fight. Besides, Training Master works every single turn in which the stack is not moving, including those long lulls in winter when not much fighting and maneuvering is done.

A Training Master will give 1 XP to every unit under its authority every turn. Want to know why that 3-0-0 King (Union general) is useful? That's it.

Also, don't forget that HQ Support units have the Training Master ability. Training Master used to work like Training Officer in that the unit had to command a stack for the ability to take affect, but since an HQ Support unit cannot per definition be the commander of a stack I believe the ability was changed to simply be present in the stack similar to the way Artillerist and Cavalyman work. So King should work the same way.

No, judging from AACW, the last is far from WAD and will eventually be changed. That would also juxtapose with the fact that almost no 6lb. guns existed in the Union armies by 1864.

It's a simple change. I've modded it myself in a number of different scenarios. The current events look for US and CS model 6lb-ers, but all artillery use currently use common models so that they can be used by the other side when captured and the capturing side can buy replacements for them. This is why artillery has it's own page for replacements; they are common model replacements. This is why the old events do not work, they are looking for models not being used by either side.

When modded so that the event looks for common model 6lb-ers belonging to the faction in question it will upgrade those correctly. The script logs confirm that it works correctly.

[ArmChairGeneral]

To clarify:

3 types of improvements an element can have: tech-upgrade, normal upgrade, and experience gain. Tech upgrades change the equipment and happen based on the date. Normal upgrades change your family (militia to conscript to line infantry) with signifigantly increased fighting ability and come from Training Officers or at random. Experience adds stars to the element, which give small increases to certain stats but can add up. Once an element has earned enough experience to gain a star, it rolls every turn to see if it can also upgrade to the next type (conscript to regular for example). On success it loses its accumulated stars. The CSA only has partial access to Training Officers; most of their conscripts get upgraded through the gain-a-star-and-wait path. Training Masters and HQ's accelerate this by getting stars quicker and apply to the whole stack each turn rather than two elements at a time.

Militia upgrade to conscripts, but volunteers upgrade directly to regulars, skipping the conscript step. (Also, I think that an element can only get one upgrade, so a militia element can never become a regular, but not 100% sure on this).

To expand on what has been written:

The volunteer-to-regular path is the most bang for the upgrade. Both infantry and cavalry conscripts get their first star quickly, and so "natural" upgrades are easy to get. If you have limited turns to make use of a Training Officer, like the CSA does in Richmond in the summer of 61, use them on Volunteers rather than conscripts, since most of your conscripts will get an upgrade within a year if they are getting experience somehow.

I forget what the mean-time-to-happen is for normal upgrades with one star (I calculated it once) but as a rule of thumb I figure about half my conscripts will be trained up to regulars in six months if they are in a stack with a Master or HQ. Militia and volunteers take much longer to upgrade this way because they require many more experience point to get their first star than conscripts and conscript cavalry.

Cav conscripts are terrible overall: not only are they weak in combat, they have 4 detection rather than 5, and are not that stealthy (plus the aforementioned low Police value). They gain stars with only five XPs however, so upgrade to regulars appropriate to their time-line faster than other units, and IIRC their first star brings them up to 5 detection even if they are still conscripts. Some states (for the CSA) produce conscript cav, others produce regulars. My early scouting stacks are composed of the scripted cav brigades and the regular-cav that I build. The conscript cav I build go into divisions in larger stacks since they will have plenty of time to get a star or an upgrade before I need to rely on them.

Question for the forum:
Some elements have black bars of varying width on the left of their NATO icons. They are sometimes hard to pick out, but the lefthand side of the box is thicker than normal, and are most easily spotted when looking at a division. These elements have better stats than the ones without the bars. At first I thought this reflected their better quality because of their experience stars but on examination this has not consistently been the case. Where do these "upgrades" come from and how do you get them?

[Gray Fox]

The NATO icon you describe is the "heavy" version of that unit type, so the icon would denote heavy infantry or heavy artillery, i.e., infantry with bigger weapons that would make them slower than other infantry and the same for the artillery. I wasn't aware of their use in the game actually, so I can't offer more than that.

[Merlin]

Here's some tips on how to use these game mechanics to your advantage.

Three conscript infantry regiments cost the same in money and WS as four militia/volunteer regiments. Both upgrade to essentially the same line infantry regiment. So I try to have a production line of 6 militia/volunteers per turn being upgraded by McClellan/Halleck/Sigel and skip buying conscript regiments.

You place a new brigade on the map that takes several turns to finish building. If it is stacked with a Master Trainer, then it will acrue experience points (just points, not necessarily stars) every turn while it is locked in place. I usually place an HQ unit in Philly or NYC and stack all such new units with them to get a little experience.

If you stack early conscript cavalry or mounted infantry with McClellan/Halleck/Sigel as soon as late cavalry are available, then they upgrade automatically to late cav.

Cavalry get experience stars pretty quick. This improves the number of police points the cavalry have a lot. If you have 100 police points in any region, then the region will automatically improve in loyalty one point per turn. With fewer than 100 points, then the chance of improving loyalty is a percentage, e.g., 50 police points gets you a 50% chance. Supposedly, a region with 100 loyalty produces 50% more resources. Thus, a reserve cavalry Corps with a few experience stars in the right place for a while may get a region pumping out more cash/WS.

Good luck!

Just to play devil's advocate, I do the exact opposite. I send new brigades to the training officers to get that one (or two) conscript element up to line. The average Union player will more or less be out of infantry brigades at the end of 1863 anyway.

Training master doesn't seem to work for me.

For example: Bragg is a training master, and also a crap general. I put him "out of the way" in Norfolk, expecting the half division he was with to be trained to superstar status by 63. Two years later, the guys he was with were still only silver.


I've experienced similar non-training with those training master generals, but that's the one specific time I purposely left one alone for years, with zero results.

It's a boost, not a silver bullet. Get them to bronze or silver and send them to combat.

So to get a 'mdl_USA_Mil6' regiment trained up from militia to regular army line infantry, it must be trained twice, once to conscript and then to regular line infantry.

Correct. that's what I see.

No, it will become a brigade with 2 regular line infantry and 1 artillery.

That's not what I see. X/V goes to line, X/C goes to X/V, if that makes sense. The KY brigades are what I'm specifically envisioning here.

A regiment can gain a lot of XP in one battle--1 for every 2 hits scored by it, minus 1 for each hit scored against it--, but the lower the quality of an element the less likely it is to be chosen to fight. Besides, Training Master works every single turn in which the stack is not moving, including those long lulls in winter when not much fighting and maneuvering is done.

True, but the experience is not equal. A CSA player will generally be moving a lot more until 1864, and thus battle is the better teacher for his forces.

Also, don't forget that HQ Support units have the Training Master ability. Training Master used to work like Training Officer in that the unit had to command a stack for the ability to take affect, but since an HQ Support unit cannot per definition be the commander of a stack I believe the ability was changed to simply be present in the stack similar to the way Artillerist and Cavalyman work. So King should work the same way.

That is how the trait works, and the ASUs are godly. I completely forgot to mention them, so thanks for bringing them to the discussion. Every player should build out the ASU pool; they're just too good to be ignored.

It's a simple change. I've modded it myself in a number of different scenarios. The current events look for US and CS model 6lb-ers, but all artillery use currently use common models so that they can be used by the other side when captured and the capturing side can buy replacements for them. This is why artillery has it's own page for replacements; they are common model replacements. This is why the old events do not work, they are looking for models not being used by either side.

My SP copy is modded for that too. I don't change my MP copy because most players keep the base game and many are adverse to modding. I think it'll eventually be changed to work like AACW though.

[Prussia]

Regarding Training Masters: Samuel Cooper should be available from game start; he received his appointment/promoted to full general on May 16, 1861. He served as Adjutant General and Inspector General for the Confederate Army for the entire war. He was Adjutant General of the US Army from 1852 till he resigned his commission in '61. He brought a wealth of experience and expertise to the Confederacy from beginning to end. He should be in at game start and remain for the duration of the war- locked into Richmond. Attempting to model this- but still working out the mechanics of it all. Any advice or assistance would be greatly appreciated.

[ArmChairGeneral]

Training master doesn't seem to work for me.

For example: Bragg is a training master, and also a crap general. I put him "out of the way" in Norfolk, expecting the half division he was with to be trained to superstar status by 63. Two years later, the guys he was with were still only silver.


I've experienced similar non-training with those training master generals, but that's the one specific time I purposely left one alone for years, with zero results.

Merlin replied:

It's a boost, not a silver bullet. Get them to bronze or silver and send them to combat.

+1

Use a Training Master at a major buildpoint to deliver the initial XP boost needed to earn freshly built conscript elements their first star, and then send those brigades on their way. In 3-5 turns the conscripts will have Bronzes and the regulars will be part way to it. This is plenty to get them started in the world. Masters/HQs give XP to units while they are building, so brigades built there may only need a turn or two after they finish before they are ready to head out the door. Spam as many brigades as you can from these cities.

The rationale: Masters/HQs (who do not stack) add a guaranteed 1 XP to the element on top of the randomly generated XP that every element on the map gets each turn (which based on play feels like about 1 XP every other turn). Conscripts, both infantry and cavalry, only need a few XPs to get a bronze star (5, IIRC). Once they have the Bronze, they make a conscript->regular roll each turn that is unaffected by a Master/HQ. Once they leave they will still earn ~1/2 XP per turn all on their lonesome, so your scarce resources might as well be earning their expensive next stars and hoping for the upgrade while doing something more militarily useful than standing around in Memphis. By the time they see any action the regulars will have bronzes and the conscripts will have made several attempts to upgrade themselves.

The HQ has CP and cohesion recovery abilities which are wasted if they are not on the front lines in stacks crammed full of elements. I like to put HQs in the largest and/or most active front-line stacks to put their full abilities to use. The extra XPs go right where they are needed, at the point of conflict, and to the most number of elements per turn possible.

Volunteer and militia elements are not well served by Masters/HQs since they need a lot of XPs to get a bronze star. They are most efficiently upgraded with Training Officers.

As an aside, I don't think Bragg is that bad. Even with his bad traits he has better than average stats. If he commands a Corps there are enough CPs that his malus is only a minor problem, and if he is outranked (he has annoyingly high seniority, unfortunately) his bad traits don't affect the stack while his Training Master ability still does. His high Strat rating also allows him to satisfy the Aide de Camp criteria.

[Gray Fox]

Merlin posted:
"Just to play devil's advocate, I do the exact opposite. I send new brigades to the training officers to get that one (or two) conscript element up to line. The average Union player will more or less be out of infantry brigades at the end of 1863 anyway."

For the Union, 3 conscript regiments (or line infantry regiments) cost as much in cash/WS as four volunteers. In addition to my elite and garrison Divisions, I can make the following Division led by a General:
-a brigade that comes with two line infantry and a sharpshooter (there are about twenty of these)
-a sailor for the river crossing bonus (18 of these plus some from RGD's),
-an early cavalry for the recon bonus and a conscript cavalry for extra horsepower in pursuit/screening (plenty of these)
-eleven volunteer-to-line infantry.
McClellan/Halleck/Sigel can train up 156 volunteers to line infantry in a year, so that's 14 Divisions worth by spring '63. Prior to all three of them working together, McClellan and then McClellan/Halleck can train up about 5 Divisions worth of volunteers. So for the price of about 150 conscripts-to-line infantry I get 200 volunteer-to-line infantry.
I just don't buy conscripts.

[ArmChairGeneral]

Of course as the CSA you do not have a choice. Cooper is only around for three turns and the other Training Officer doesn't show up until halfway through the game, so the conscript->regular path via Master/HQs is the best (only) way to get your guys upgraded quickly.

[Gray Fox]

Agreed. You can use the "militia in home state" bonus and the CSA has some militia boosting Generals, but nothing like what the Union can do.

[Merlin]

For the Union, 3 conscript regiments (or line infantry regiments) cost as much in cash/WS as four volunteers. In addition to my elite and garrison Divisions, I can make the following Division led by a General:
-a brigade that comes with two line infantry and a sharpshooter (there are about twenty of these)
-a sailor for the river crossing bonus (18 of these plus some from RGD's),
-an early cavalry for the recon bonus and a conscript cavalry for extra horsepower in pursuit/screening (plenty of these)
-eleven volunteer-to-line infantry.
McClellan/Halleck/Sigel can train up 156 volunteers to line infantry in a year, so that's 14 Divisions worth by spring '63. Prior to all three of them working together, McClellan and then McClellan/Halleck can train up about 5 Divisions worth of volunteers. So for the price of about 150 conscripts-to-line infantry I get 200 volunteer-to-line infantry.
I just don't buy conscripts.

Conscripts generally upgrade after a few fights anyway, and with the ASUs in about half the corps stacks, having a few conscripts in the divisions isn't really an issue. I use the militia/volunteers to make cheap garrison divisions, so it kind of forces me to use the normal brigades in the line formations. Also, as I said, by the end of 1863 I usually have just a few of the NE brigades still in the pool, so everything from that point on is going to be a garrison division. 1864 is nothing but garrisons and drowning the Confederacy in guns.

Of course as the CSA you do not have a choice. Cooper is only around for three turns and the other Training Officer doesn't show up until halfway through the game, so the conscript->regular path via Master/HQs is the best (only) way to get your guys upgraded quickly.

Getting Taylor promoted is a big priority. Once you do, just rotate him through your armies and by 1864 you'll have almost no conscripts left. Just get Forrest promoted, give him two divisions worth of cav, then give those divisions to Taylor and Cleburne, and go play depot whack-a-mole in the lower Ohio River valley.