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General Hindman
- Civilian
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2014 4:17 am
Can't control English/French??? What???? Tell me I'm doing something wrong
I am playing as the south. Just triggered intervention. Can you not control their troops??? What fun is that?
I have yet to get Foreign Intervention to fire in CW2, and I've only done it once in AACW. That experience pretty much informed me that it wasn't worth the cost (I had basically won already, regardless).
Still, it should work. It may take a couple of turns for certain units to unlock. Is that the problem, that the stacks aren't unlocked yet? What exactly is (not) happening?
Still, it should work. It may take a couple of turns for certain units to unlock. Is that the problem, that the stacks aren't unlocked yet? What exactly is (not) happening?
When FI triggers in CW2, the AI controls the French and British forces. This is a change from ACW. I believe that the thinking behind this was that the European powers would have had their own agenda with regards to intervening in the conflict. This agenda would probably not have been the same as the CSA goals.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
'Nous voilà, Lafayette'
Colonel C.E. Stanton, aide to A.E.F. commander John 'Black Jack' Pershing, upon the landing of the first US troops in France 1917
'Nous voilà, Lafayette'
Colonel C.E. Stanton, aide to A.E.F. commander John 'Black Jack' Pershing, upon the landing of the first US troops in France 1917
Le Ricain has it. The developers probably have it right. Given the sentiment at the time, I can't imagine that control of foreign troops would have been given to the US or the CSA, especially by the British. Even if the southern US was more aristocratic in its pretensions, it was still a mere democracy. 
The only realistic foreign intervention would probably have been in response to Trent. Otherwise it would probably have been recognition, and supplies allowed to the CSA. IIRC, Britain prohibited it by law at the time.
... but I would have liked the *option* to control them, maybe through an in-game setting. It was so much fun in AACW.
The only realistic foreign intervention would probably have been in response to Trent. Otherwise it would probably have been recognition, and supplies allowed to the CSA. IIRC, Britain prohibited it by law at the time.
... but I would have liked the *option* to control them, maybe through an in-game setting. It was so much fun in AACW.
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Captain_Orso
- Posts: 5766
- Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:02 pm
- Location: Stuttgart, Germany
Well, if you want to you can alway cheat 
. You can use the ChangeFaction command to take control of GBR or FRA and give them orders; don't forget to save your CSA orders first.
If you really want to get fancy-shmancy you can issue the "AIFlush ON" command first and then hit the "Proceed to next turn" button, which will cause the engine to issue orders to the GBR and FRA--and the USA if playing against Athena--and then drop to the main menu when completed. Then just load the scenario again and use ChangeFaction GBR or FRA to look at the orders and change them to what ever you want.
Unfortunately you cannot build any units for the GBR or FRA as they have no build pools, but you can buy replacements.
. You can use the ChangeFaction command to take control of GBR or FRA and give them orders; don't forget to save your CSA orders first.
If you really want to get fancy-shmancy you can issue the "AIFlush ON" command first and then hit the "Proceed to next turn" button, which will cause the engine to issue orders to the GBR and FRA--and the USA if playing against Athena--and then drop to the main menu when completed. Then just load the scenario again and use ChangeFaction GBR or FRA to look at the orders and change them to what ever you want.
Unfortunately you cannot build any units for the GBR or FRA as they have no build pools, but you can buy replacements.
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General Hindman
- Civilian
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2014 4:17 am
I agree. They come in on the side of the south and would help them in winning the war. Although I'm sure they would have their own agenda helping the south would have mattered a great deal. In the game I can't even see what they are doing unless they pop up in a space I'm in. It's ridiculous. You should be able to control or at least give somewhat specific orders. It made me want to quit playing out right.
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General Hindman
- Civilian
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- Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2014 4:17 am
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Captain_Orso
- Posts: 5766
- Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:02 pm
- Location: Stuttgart, Germany
You have to open the Console to enter the commands. AFAIK on a QWERTY keyboard you open the Console by pressing the "~" key, which should be directly to the left of the "1" in the number row and below the Esc.
I use a German QWERTZ keyboard and the Console is opened with the "ä" key, which is the second key to the left of the "L" key.
In the worst case, just try all the keys left and right of the numbers on the number row and left of the letters, one after the other. Try them without holding <Shift>, <Cntl>, <Alt> or <Alt Gr>. If that doesn't work, go though those keys with <Shift> held down, then <Cntl>, etc.
When you hit the correct one a small window will open in the middle of the map. You can enter "?" to get a list of know commands.
Once the Console window is opened you can do as i described in my first post.
To issues orders for the English enter "ChangeFaction GBR" and press <Enter>.
I use a German QWERTZ keyboard and the Console is opened with the "ä" key, which is the second key to the left of the "L" key.
In the worst case, just try all the keys left and right of the numbers on the number row and left of the letters, one after the other. Try them without holding <Shift>, <Cntl>, <Alt> or <Alt Gr>. If that doesn't work, go though those keys with <Shift> held down, then <Cntl>, etc.
When you hit the correct one a small window will open in the middle of the map. You can enter "?" to get a list of know commands.
Once the Console window is opened you can do as i described in my first post.
To issues orders for the English enter "ChangeFaction GBR" and press <Enter>.
Thanks Orso. I've played with this command a little bit and it's not for the faint of heart.
The faction change occurs immediately. With fog of war on you sometimes can't see the units you're trying to manipulate, b/c I assume it's calculating FOW for CSA only. If you don't save the orders prior to changing to another faction, the game doesn't record them. Saves of orders only work for the active faction. If you switch from CSA to GBR, issue some orders, switch back to CSA, then switch back to GBR, the orders you issued to GBR won't be present on the screen. The resource number display ($, conscripts, WS) doesn't automatically update when the faction changes. It crashed my game fairly often if I tried to do too much.
I don't know what happens if I try to advance a turn while I still have an active faction other than USA or CSA, and if this changes FOW calculation. Overall, it's a clumsy way to try to get control of the FI, b/c you can't get around cheating FOW to manipulate your units.
The faction change occurs immediately. With fog of war on you sometimes can't see the units you're trying to manipulate, b/c I assume it's calculating FOW for CSA only. If you don't save the orders prior to changing to another faction, the game doesn't record them. Saves of orders only work for the active faction. If you switch from CSA to GBR, issue some orders, switch back to CSA, then switch back to GBR, the orders you issued to GBR won't be present on the screen. The resource number display ($, conscripts, WS) doesn't automatically update when the faction changes. It crashed my game fairly often if I tried to do too much.
I don't know what happens if I try to advance a turn while I still have an active faction other than USA or CSA, and if this changes FOW calculation. Overall, it's a clumsy way to try to get control of the FI, b/c you can't get around cheating FOW to manipulate your units.
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Captain_Orso
- Posts: 5766
- Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:02 pm
- Location: Stuttgart, Germany
Well, it's not a feature, it's a tool for debugging.
Of course, when you issue ChangeFaction it takes place immediately; when else?
I'm not sure about the resources, I didn't really pay much attention to them, as you have no influence over them anyway. While purchasing Replacements however, I did note that the costs were being taken out of the amounts listed.
I'm certain that FOW is per the active Faction. Otherwise I would not have been able to see any of the stacks in nearby or even the same region.
I did notice that the Brits cannot create any corps, though. I found this a bit odd, if Athena is constrained by the rules in general she wouldn't be able to build them either, unless they are done through the AI scripting.
I did say you have to save your orders before changing factions, now didn't I
Just to be fair to the poor Yanks, plan your CS orders first. Then you can let Athena plan the British and French, using AiFlush ON, or not, depending on what you want to do, and plan the Brits and Frenchies.
And don't forget to save before switching
I haven't had any issue with CTD, but then again I have 12GB RAM plus a whole bunch on my graphic card and I've only ever CTDed because of a corrupt data file
Of course, when you issue ChangeFaction it takes place immediately; when else?
I'm not sure about the resources, I didn't really pay much attention to them, as you have no influence over them anyway. While purchasing Replacements however, I did note that the costs were being taken out of the amounts listed.
I'm certain that FOW is per the active Faction. Otherwise I would not have been able to see any of the stacks in nearby or even the same region.
I did notice that the Brits cannot create any corps, though. I found this a bit odd, if Athena is constrained by the rules in general she wouldn't be able to build them either, unless they are done through the AI scripting.
I did say you have to save your orders before changing factions, now didn't I
Just to be fair to the poor Yanks, plan your CS orders first. Then you can let Athena plan the British and French, using AiFlush ON, or not, depending on what you want to do, and plan the Brits and Frenchies.
And don't forget to save before switching
I haven't had any issue with CTD, but then again I have 12GB RAM plus a whole bunch on my graphic card and I've only ever CTDed because of a corrupt data file
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pgr
- General of the Army
- Posts: 670
- Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:33 pm
- Location: Paris France (by way of Wyoming)
Le Ricain wrote:When FI triggers in CW2, the AI controls the French and British forces. This is a change from ACW. I believe that the thinking behind this was that the European powers would have had their own agenda with regards to intervening in the conflict. This agenda would probably not have been the same as the CSA goals.
Meh...I'm not sure I like this justification. Sure they would have had their own political goals, but any expeditionary force sent to the CSA would have coordinated in some kind of integrated command system. Think Washington and Rocheambeau. Given that there is no way to request one's allies to act in a certain way, having control over some expeditionary corps seems like the best way to proceed. My two cents.
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Captain_Orso
- Posts: 5766
- Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:02 pm
- Location: Stuttgart, Germany
And that is why the CS player doesn't get control over the British troops. They should follow British interests and not be auxiliary troops for using as the South wishes.
Maybe a RGD might be created to raise AI interest in a certain area, which might bet the British to maybe land in Boston or Wilmington or marching down into New York. Just a thought.
Maybe a RGD might be created to raise AI interest in a certain area, which might bet the British to maybe land in Boston or Wilmington or marching down into New York. Just a thought.
Merlin wrote:I'm fairly certain if the European powers actually intervened militarily, which probably would not have happened (even Davis considered mediation as the end FI goal), they would have gone in through Canada and not done a Revolutionary War-style link-up in Virginia or wherever.
Granted, all we can possibly do here is speculate. That being true, I still disagree.
The main thing that the British would have done is act to break the blockade. I do agree that most British ground action would have been from out of Canada, but I don't see why they wouldn't have landed troops (an "expeditionary force", at the least) in the South proper. They'd have wanted the Confederacies ports cleared of Union occupation, at the very least.
The French, on the other hand, would have staged in Mexico and driven their forces up through the Mississippi valley, with the goal of recapturing Memphis and Western Tennessee.
Although, I do agree that the main goal of the Europeans would have been mediation. That's what they were interested in all along, anyway.
For game purposes, regardless of this discussion about what may or may not have happened in real life, the fact is that the way FI apparently works is a bad design choice. There's no getting around that. All of the rationalization in the world doesn't change the simple fact that this design choice is simply no fun. CWII (and all AGEOD's games) should be games first.
I know this much, I haven't tried for FI at all with CWII yet, and now knowing that this is how it works I'm not ever likely to try. This design makes me actually want to discourage FI, at least to a certain extent.
Here is some data as to what almost happened after the Trent Affair.
http://www.oocities.org/littlegreenmen.geo/Trent1861.htm
http://www.oocities.org/littlegreenmen.geo/Trent1861.htm
I'm the 51st shade of gray. Eat, pray, Charge!
Just in terms of the technical discussion - is there a way of editing the original scenario files such that the factions GBR and FRA are controllable by the CSA player, as is done in other AGEOD games (eg the original, various RUS factions etc)?
deguerra, there is at least one way I know of to achieve what you're talking about in CW2, and maybe two. Let me first say that I think the game designers made the right decision in modeling a more realistic concept of foreign entry. I agree with some of the other posters that it's unlikely the CSA (or any nation) would have been given control of a huge expeditionary force, or that either Britain or France really wanted to or could afford to go to war with the Union. Napoleon III might have been ambiguous as far as the issue of slavery went, but as you know Great Britain on the whole was against it.
You can use the console command ChangeFaction to switch to another faction immediately. However, for some (myself included) this does not automatically update the FOW for that faction so you end up having to turn FOW off (more on that in next paragraph). That command gives you control of only one faction at a time, so once you're GBR you have to switch back to CSA to do anything with them. You have to save your commands before you switch. If you try to switch CSA to GBR to CSA to GBR, it will forget the moves you made at the 2nd step. It's a debugging tool and is designed as such. This is a total immersion killer, IMO, but it will give you control of the forces for a different faction. My game frequently crashes during these steps, but my game crashes at other times, too, so I've gotten used to saving and backing up my saves directory often.
The way the foreign entry is currently scripted, when it fires the value (http://www.ageod.net/agewiki/SetFacRelationships) that controls the relationships between CSA<>FRA and CSA<>GBR is set to 20. That means that CSA can't enter French or British territory, nor can you see what the other factions see; you don't get to peer through their FOW. By default, if the British manage to invade and control Ohio, the CSA cannot simply cross the Ohio river into what is now British controlled territory because of their relationship value. With higher relationship values you can enter allied territory and see what they see, but even the highest value won't give you control of another faction.
The way it's currently written, the AI for the other factions is turned off until foreign entry fires (or for the French, until the intervention in Mexico fires). If you have historical attrition turned on, that means that during this time they've been bleeding men. They've been accumulating resources so they can afford to replace most anything, but initially they'll be potentially weakened. After foreign entry fires, if you're using the ChangeFaction command to control GBR but you use it only intermittently (not every turn) the AI will run that faction on the turns that it doesn't already have orders created.
In addition, the following are true under current setup. Other factions are not scripted to allow corps creation (you can change this, but GBR is the only faction that is given land forces with which to invade the US). They can create any number of armies provided they have the three-stars available. They can buy replacements but they cannot improve their already-low rail/river numbers, and they bleed those rail/river numbers over time. This limits their mobility in a *huge* way. By the 2nd year of foreign entry you'll be lucky to move a single division across Canada by rail, and forget about supply wagons at the same time. I believe their entrenchment level is limited at 3; it might be scripted to improve but I haven't been looking for it. However, it ends up being like I remember from AACW. You'll draw away some forces from the CSA lines, but with a concerted push the Union can take the area north of Lake Erie pretty easily. The long harsh winter will prevent the Union from doing too much up there, but the same can be said for GBR.
The other way of getting foreign "control" is one I'm experimenting with. The existing models for units are tagged with their faction names (NationTag). With the built-in units it's not as easy as scripting French units to appear in New Orleans by event while you have the CSA faction selected. I've tried that and they just don't appear, or if they do I can't find them no matter what faction I've used. New models would have to be created with the appropriate NationTag, essentially copies of the existing GBR and FRA units with updates.
The problem with this approach is those units are still technically CSA forces (I think). The issue of entering, say, GBR territory with your fancy new CSA-GBR units (mentioned above with relationships) still exists. Unless you totally rewrote foreign entry, you'd still have the British and French factions doing their own thing. Replacements for these CSA-GBR units will be drawn from your faction's pool, not the appropriate nation (I think; you could script free conscripts in addition to the other foreign subsidies). In wouldn't be realistic to assume that these forces would fight as hard for the CSA, essentially defending slavery as an institution. They'd need to be tweaked like state militia are: less effective fighting outside their home area.
Attached below is an example of a CSA-tagged French unit (Legionnaire; er, make that Zouave) I created with a modified copy of the existing model. I ask pardon from the French members of the forum for my levity with the name of the unit. Almost all of the models would have to have duplicates made for this to work.
[ATTACH]31809[/ATTACH]
You probably remember in AACW there was a very small set of actions and territory to simulate the French intervention in Mexico. Now we have all of Mexico and much more potential for control, right? From what I can see, it was given a framework but the event is not simulated beyond a few basics. The Mexican faction is not given any structures to generate resources. There are events to place forces at intervals depending on whether Porfirio Diaz still exists and they are given some free replacements, maybe some money and WS, but nothing auto-generates per turn from a structure. The French have a shipping fleet and structures in France. The biggest indicator is that there is no event in Foreign Entry.sct (where all the other events related to the French intervention are) to turn on the AI for the Mexican faction (scratch that, I found it). However, it's the perfect setup for a DLC down the road.
I am working on running the French intervention scenario from the Mexican side, but I'll let the royal families keep running things in Europe. About the most I'll do with them now is increase the relationship setting if foreign entry fires, so I can see what's going on. With the faction relationships at 20 and playing as the CSA, you can have French and British ships in your harbors and not be able to see them.
Orso frequently likes to disagree with whatever I post, so he'll be along in a few to correct me on one or more things.
deguerra, there is at least one way I know of to achieve what you're talking about in CW2, and maybe two. Let me first say that I think the game designers made the right decision in modeling a more realistic concept of foreign entry. I agree with some of the other posters that it's unlikely the CSA (or any nation) would have been given control of a huge expeditionary force, or that either Britain or France really wanted to or could afford to go to war with the Union. Napoleon III might have been ambiguous as far as the issue of slavery went, but as you know Great Britain on the whole was against it.
You can use the console command ChangeFaction to switch to another faction immediately. However, for some (myself included) this does not automatically update the FOW for that faction so you end up having to turn FOW off (more on that in next paragraph). That command gives you control of only one faction at a time, so once you're GBR you have to switch back to CSA to do anything with them. You have to save your commands before you switch. If you try to switch CSA to GBR to CSA to GBR, it will forget the moves you made at the 2nd step. It's a debugging tool and is designed as such. This is a total immersion killer, IMO, but it will give you control of the forces for a different faction. My game frequently crashes during these steps, but my game crashes at other times, too, so I've gotten used to saving and backing up my saves directory often.
The way the foreign entry is currently scripted, when it fires the value (http://www.ageod.net/agewiki/SetFacRelationships) that controls the relationships between CSA<>FRA and CSA<>GBR is set to 20. That means that CSA can't enter French or British territory, nor can you see what the other factions see; you don't get to peer through their FOW. By default, if the British manage to invade and control Ohio, the CSA cannot simply cross the Ohio river into what is now British controlled territory because of their relationship value. With higher relationship values you can enter allied territory and see what they see, but even the highest value won't give you control of another faction.
The way it's currently written, the AI for the other factions is turned off until foreign entry fires (or for the French, until the intervention in Mexico fires). If you have historical attrition turned on, that means that during this time they've been bleeding men. They've been accumulating resources so they can afford to replace most anything, but initially they'll be potentially weakened. After foreign entry fires, if you're using the ChangeFaction command to control GBR but you use it only intermittently (not every turn) the AI will run that faction on the turns that it doesn't already have orders created.
In addition, the following are true under current setup. Other factions are not scripted to allow corps creation (you can change this, but GBR is the only faction that is given land forces with which to invade the US). They can create any number of armies provided they have the three-stars available. They can buy replacements but they cannot improve their already-low rail/river numbers, and they bleed those rail/river numbers over time. This limits their mobility in a *huge* way. By the 2nd year of foreign entry you'll be lucky to move a single division across Canada by rail, and forget about supply wagons at the same time. I believe their entrenchment level is limited at 3; it might be scripted to improve but I haven't been looking for it. However, it ends up being like I remember from AACW. You'll draw away some forces from the CSA lines, but with a concerted push the Union can take the area north of Lake Erie pretty easily. The long harsh winter will prevent the Union from doing too much up there, but the same can be said for GBR.
The other way of getting foreign "control" is one I'm experimenting with. The existing models for units are tagged with their faction names (NationTag). With the built-in units it's not as easy as scripting French units to appear in New Orleans by event while you have the CSA faction selected. I've tried that and they just don't appear, or if they do I can't find them no matter what faction I've used. New models would have to be created with the appropriate NationTag, essentially copies of the existing GBR and FRA units with updates.
The problem with this approach is those units are still technically CSA forces (I think). The issue of entering, say, GBR territory with your fancy new CSA-GBR units (mentioned above with relationships) still exists. Unless you totally rewrote foreign entry, you'd still have the British and French factions doing their own thing. Replacements for these CSA-GBR units will be drawn from your faction's pool, not the appropriate nation (I think; you could script free conscripts in addition to the other foreign subsidies). In wouldn't be realistic to assume that these forces would fight as hard for the CSA, essentially defending slavery as an institution. They'd need to be tweaked like state militia are: less effective fighting outside their home area.
Attached below is an example of a CSA-tagged French unit (Legionnaire; er, make that Zouave) I created with a modified copy of the existing model. I ask pardon from the French members of the forum for my levity with the name of the unit. Almost all of the models would have to have duplicates made for this to work.
[ATTACH]31809[/ATTACH]
You probably remember in AACW there was a very small set of actions and territory to simulate the French intervention in Mexico. Now we have all of Mexico and much more potential for control, right? From what I can see, it was given a framework but the event is not simulated beyond a few basics. The Mexican faction is not given any structures to generate resources. There are events to place forces at intervals depending on whether Porfirio Diaz still exists and they are given some free replacements, maybe some money and WS, but nothing auto-generates per turn from a structure. The French have a shipping fleet and structures in France. The biggest indicator is that there is no event in Foreign Entry.sct (where all the other events related to the French intervention are) to turn on the AI for the Mexican faction (scratch that, I found it). However, it's the perfect setup for a DLC down the road.
I am working on running the French intervention scenario from the Mexican side, but I'll let the royal families keep running things in Europe. About the most I'll do with them now is increase the relationship setting if foreign entry fires, so I can see what's going on. With the faction relationships at 20 and playing as the CSA, you can have French and British ships in your harbors and not be able to see them.
Orso frequently likes to disagree with whatever I post, so he'll be along in a few to correct me on one or more things.
THanks for that very detailed response, grimjaw, I'll have to play around with it a bit myself.
I directed my post purely at a technical discussion because while I agree that there are good arguments against direct control of the FI troops for being unrealistic, it's still nice to have the option - a player can always be disciplined enough to not abuse the extra power.
It's your second option that I was more interested in, but it seems setting things up is quite time intensive. I'll have to give the first option a try, to see if that is a useable alternative.
Anyway, thanks for your help! (and waiting on Orso to come and disagree with everything :P)
I directed my post purely at a technical discussion because while I agree that there are good arguments against direct control of the FI troops for being unrealistic, it's still nice to have the option - a player can always be disciplined enough to not abuse the extra power.
It's your second option that I was more interested in, but it seems setting things up is quite time intensive. I'll have to give the first option a try, to see if that is a useable alternative.
Anyway, thanks for your help! (and waiting on Orso to come and disagree with everything :P)
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Captain_Orso
- Posts: 5766
- Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:02 pm
- Location: Stuttgart, Germany
apy: ... um ..... 
.... wait a minute .... 
I guess it kind of depends how things are going for you without them. Much of it is out of your control, of course. The Union political decisions regarding the total blockade (can go for or against you); their actions with regard to territorial concessions; and there are a few events that fire that raise or lower it. The biggest single event that can land in your favor is the Trent affair. If you're not close to the FI total by the time Trent fires, and if it doesn't fire in your favor, I'd give up on it. There's no other single event after that will fall in your favor, and emancipation pretty much ends your chances.
However, if Trent does fall in your favor and you're close by then, say within 10-15 percentage points, it can definitely be worth it. The Union player will want to spend decisions to keep FI down, which can mean lowering Union NM and VP, and possibly keep him from entering Kentucky b/c of the FI hit. If they don't choose those options and FI fires, the naval forces of Great Britain and France can help you out immensely, especially GBR. Their fleet is huge, with powerful ships. The Union has to worry about a northern front and possible naval landing of a huge force, however ineptly organized and led by the AI.
However, if Trent does fall in your favor and you're close by then, say within 10-15 percentage points, it can definitely be worth it. The Union player will want to spend decisions to keep FI down, which can mean lowering Union NM and VP, and possibly keep him from entering Kentucky b/c of the FI hit. If they don't choose those options and FI fires, the naval forces of Great Britain and France can help you out immensely, especially GBR. Their fleet is huge, with powerful ships. The Union has to worry about a northern front and possible naval landing of a huge force, however ineptly organized and led by the AI.
I think that it's a waste, at all times. The only time that I can see spending any resources on FI is when you're literally only a couple of points from having it fire anyway.
People should probably also consider the fact that the long term costs of things like any of the embargo options far outweigh their immediate costs. That extra bit of money is absolutely key, in my experience, in being able to build up in the Winter of '61 so that you can live though the spring of '62 and counterstrike in the summer or fall. without that extra bit of resources... the best you can hope for is to just drag the war out, probably.
People should probably also consider the fact that the long term costs of things like any of the embargo options far outweigh their immediate costs. That extra bit of money is absolutely key, in my experience, in being able to build up in the Winter of '61 so that you can live though the spring of '62 and counterstrike in the summer or fall. without that extra bit of resources... the best you can hope for is to just drag the war out, probably.
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