Camp Dick Robinson Just Fired...What to Do?

[The Red Baron]

Union is in L&L. KY is not open yet despite Camp DR. What to do as CSA? If I head north to evict the Union, does KY flip for USA? Should I hang back and wait for it to flip for CSA because of Camp DR? In my last GC as Union, Camp DR fired and KY flipped for CSA. Never played CSA and I have enough problems w/o adding KY to my list. Suggestions?

[Merlin]

All you need for KY units is bowling Green.

[The Red Baron]

Hmmm...never thought of that; was looking north to establish a good defensive position and grab some VPs but BG looks doable; nice river assault for the Union.

[The Red Baron]

Back to this topic for a moment...USA forces in L&L but KY hasn't flipped for anyone yet. If I assault Louisville to eject the Union, will KY flip for them?

[ohms_law]

as far as I know, the only way to actually take action in Kentucky as the CSA is by playing the "Allow Intervention in Kentucky" government decision. So, yes, Kentucky will "flip" for the Union.

[The Red Baron]

Crap. I haven't seen this decision in my pool yet. In my Union GC, after Camp DR, KY flipped for CSA. I was hoping for the same result.

[ohms_law]

FYI: it's not a regional decision. It shows up in the Department of State screen (F6 - Government button in the Strategic Atlas):

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[The Red Baron]

Ah, I misread your post. This hasn't appeared for me yet, but it's early in the game; might be worth it to dig in at BG before Union arrives, despite the cost.

[Merlin]

Invading KY is often worthwhile as the CSA, though I'd recommend having sufficient forces in western TN before you do. If you fail to do this, Grant will ruin all your fun.

[Captain_Orso]

I have found that, for the South, the real question is whether the devastating NM hit for invading neutral Kentucky is worth being able to enter Kentucky one turn before the Union. My management summery answer is: No.

With the Camp Dick Robinson event, the Union actually gets to enter Kentucky already in about June '61 without NM penalty. Of course it is at a time where the Union has absolutely no resources to even think about reinforcing Kentucky, especially since at this time it is to the greatest extent a cul-de-sac. The only interesting aspects of eastern Kentucky so early in the war are--aside from simply controlling Lexington and Louisville--1) being able to move small forces across the Appalachians and harass Knoxville and Chattanooga--or the other way around--and 2) being able to setup for a sprint for Bowling Green, and the Union can do that for quicker form Evensville per the Green River than overland from Louisville.

In '61 without the question of Kentucky's allegiance answered eastern Kentucky is not a secondary front, it is the quietest place in the war so close to the North-South border.

Once Kentucky is decided--if it is decided--the actual goal is Tennessee--Nashville, Memphis and Corinth. There is a small chance I believe that Kentucky remains neutral until well into '62 or even longer, but they are very small. During beta I once got to play with a permanently neutral Kentucky as the Union and the challenge was very interesting.

One thing is universally correct, as pointed out by Merlin, the South must be prepared for Grant regardless of the Kentucky outcome.

[Merlin]

What the NM hit for invading KY as the CSA? 4 NM, right? It takes a long time for the Union to organize the AotC for a push on Nashville. Sure, you can bypass Henry/Donelson, but taking Bowling Green and Nashville, the entire point of a Union KY campaign, is generally a mid-'62 endeavor at best. I agree it doesn't always end well and a neutral KY is a great shield behind which the CSA can recruit, but I'd rather recruit KY units first if I can. I could care less about the Louisville/Lexington line, but 4 NM for 9 months of recruiting is an excellent trade, particularly if there's sufficient evidence of slightly larger than usual Union forces in MO and VA.

IMO, Bowling Green and Springfield are generally worth a fair price to the CSA. Nothing is more predictive of CSA defeat than an early loss of the ability to recruit in MO and KY.

[Captain_Orso]

OMG I never realized how low the CS NM hit is for invading Kentucky! It used be like around 10-15

I haven't played the South in ages. Of course playing against Athena is not the same as playing against a human, but if you're invading Kentucky to be able to build the Kentucky units--not because of the proximity of the Union, but because of the types of units--then the game is not working right.

[Merlin]

I'd still pay 10 NM for KY units in '61. If you wait, then you have to face 60,000-90,000 Federals and won't get much out of it. As the CSA there's no other reason to be in KY at all, and it's not the types of units, but the fact they exist. Holding a front against a human past '63 without the MO and KY units is extremely difficult, and a player who manages to nearly recruit out those states can generally outlast the historical end of the war.

Also, being north of the Cumberland after March, '62 is dangerous, and suicidal after August, '62. Playing against Athena makes holding KY viable, but against a human it's foolish.

[Captain_Orso]

I don't get it. What difference does it make if I buy a brigade with 2 infantry and a cavalry regiment in Kentucky or Tennessee or Mississippi or Florida for that matter? Once it is where I want it the state of origin has no meaning.

[ArmChairGeneral]

The MO force pool is critical because of the location. Otherwise everything has to come through Arkansas, a lengthy trip.

The KY force pool is important because of its size, it is giant (and has boatloads of artillery). IL/IN/OH is far larger than TN/MS/AL. Without KY troops the CSA can't hope to keep up.

[Merlin]

All that, and once the CSA loses the strategic cities in MO and KY it generally doesn't get them back against competent play, effectively making those recruitment pools gone forever.

[Captain_Orso]

It's like whether you order your cannons from Sears or Amazon.

Sears only has 100 in their ware house and Amazon has 500. But you can only afford to by 50 cannons anyway. So if you never see the Amazon home page a single time you can still order every cannon you need from Sears. The only difference might be the time and cost of delivery, because the Sears ware house is further away from your house.

Of course Amazon's ware house is in a bad area with high criminality, so that there is often the danger that once you have ordered a new cannon, it could be that thieves steal it while it's being delivered. In that case, if you order cannons while thieves are around to steal them, it's your problem.

Now if you buy every cannon from Sears and still need more, then you would have an argument; but I would say the argument is, if the CS has the resources to build more cannons than are in the build pool, then the build pool is too small.

[Merlin]

Think about it this way: As you get pushed back, does it not make sense to first recruit from pools which will be closed to you, so long as that location isn't in immediate danger of being overrun? When I play as the CSA, I try to get as many brigades and guns from pools which are in danger of being overwhelmed. West of the Mississippi, I have the following priority: MO, AR, TX. In the center: TN, KY, TN, MS/AL/LA. In the East it's more scattered because I've never lost Richmond before '64. Port defenses and fire brigades are obviously drawn from more local sources.

Against Athena, I can certainly empty the brigade pools by late '64. Against a human, I can get pretty close; about 80-90% or so. Cavalry is always recruited out, and guns are never even close, maybe about 60% if I'm doing really well. Naval, well... I don't think I ever buy more than 10 boats of any kind.

[ohms_law]

By the way, what do you do with all of that cavalry? Do you use them as mostly independent units? Do you raid with them? When do you purchase them; mid-62?

I guess that I'm overly focused on infantry and filling out divisions (and Corps). I don't often find myself buying cavalry.

[Merlin]

Cavalry is essential as the CSA. You have an overabundance of excellent cavalry leaders, lots of cavalry to recruit, and ample time and space to use it. Since you can get more than enough cavalry for your grunt divisions from the brigades themselves, I use recruitable cavalry regiments almost exclusively in cavalry divisions. I've never emptied the cavalry pool before mid-'64 due to other demands, but I do go raiding in force by mid-'62. Sending Forrest into the Federal rear is the only promotion factory the CSA has which is equivalent to Union coastal fort-busting, and you can seriously hamper Union advances by raiding. Burn down depots, rip up rail, threaten rear area strategic towns and cities. It's wonderful stuff.

If you think raiding is weak, try building a 23,000 man cavalry corps under Forrest and go on a rampage. It's the most destructive thing you can ever do in the game and will strike terror into your opponent, and is pretty much the only reason I ever play as the CSA. I've had players stop offensives for months on end to deal with this, and it's the most fun you will ever have in a PBEM.

[Captain_Orso]

Think about it this way: As you get pushed back, does it not make sense to first recruit from pools which will be closed to you, so long as that location isn't in immediate danger of being overrun? When I play as the CSA, I try to get as many brigades and guns from pools which are in danger of being overwhelmed. West of the Mississippi, I have the following priority: MO, AR, TX. In the center: TN, KY, TN, MS/AL/LA. In the East it's more scattered because I've never lost Richmond before '64. Port defenses and fire brigades are obviously drawn from more local sources.

Against Athena, I can certainly empty the brigade pools by late '64. Against a human, I can get pretty close; about 80-90% or so. Cavalry is always recruited out, and guns are never even close, maybe about 60% if I'm doing really well. Naval, well... I don't think I ever buy more than 10 boats of any kind.

Agreed, it there is no danger of partially built units being attacked. But the question was, whether it is worth the 3 NM.

Back when it was 10-15 NM I would have said never. For 3 NM I'd probably want to see more RoI than just the build-pool; but that depends greatly on my overall strategy and mostly the Union's strategy.

[Merlin]

Back when it was 10-15 NM I would have said never. For 3 NM I'd probably want to see more RoI than just the build-pool; but that depends greatly on my overall strategy and mostly the Union's strategy.

It's all about timing. If you get lucky and KY secedes, then you can probably recruit out the KY brigades before the Union can realistically do anything about it. If you invade, you had better be prepared to do it as soon as the decision pops, because that short period before the weather goes bad usually allows you to hold Bowling Green through the winter. That still gives you sufficient time to recruit enough units to make it worth your while, but as I said, you have to plan for it almost from the beginning.

[ohms_law]

How the heck do you keep them supplied? That's always the problem that I had... I remember one time losing an entire division of cavalry to starvation!

[ohms_law]

It's all about timing. If you get lucky and KY secedes, then you can probably recruit out the KY brigades before the Union can realistically do anything about it. If you invade, you had better be prepared to do it as soon as the decision pops, because that short period before the weather goes bad usually allows you to hold Bowling Green through the winter. That still gives you sufficient time to recruit enough units to make it worth your while, but as I said, you have to plan for it almost from the beginning.

I'm probably going to pay for it soon, but I'm having fun in my current game using KY as a sort of shield. Athena and I are battling it out in Missouri.

[Merlin]

You have to hit a town or depot every other turn at a minimum. Don't raid in poor weather and for the sake of the battle gods, don't go where his armies are. Under someone like Forrest, cavalry moves extremely quickly, so if you find yourself at less than half supply and rampaging through Indiana, you can get back to Tennessee in two turns.

[Merlin]

I'm probably going to pay for it soon, but I'm having fun in my current game using KY as a sort of shield. Athena and I are battling it out in Missouri.

I do that often enough. The Cumberland is your best friend, and the Ohio is a siren song.

However, against Athena it's perfectly acceptable to try to hold on the Ohio.

[ArmChairGeneral]

I regularly exhaust my TN and MS brigade pools in low-to-medium combat playthroughs where I don't have to spend everything on replacements. The extra divisions that I squeeze out of KY before it falls (although it doesn't usually against Athena) can make a big difference late in the war during the hanging-on-by-a-thread stage of the game (or the stomping-across-the-rail-sea-of-the-midwest stage if things are going well).

That being said, I NEVER open KY against Athena, I let it happen naturally and then build the heck out of the KY force pool. Even with Dick Robinson, she is unprepared to contest a prepared quick strike on KY.

[The Red Baron]

Wow, amazing one question can tease out so many great tips for playing the CSA side; lots of things that hadn't even crossed my mind.

[Merlin]

It's a free for all forum.

[Mickey3D]

I agree with ArmChairGeneral : as CSA you should try to use the Kentucky's units pool before depleting the Tennessee/Mississippi units. All the more because Kentucky has strong brigades (don't remember at the moment but something like 3 inf, 1 art, 1 cav).