FelixZ
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Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:40 pm

Rod Smart wrote:As a Union player I've found this odd as well.

There have been times when I've won major battles, inflicting 5,000+ casualties and not gotten any victory points, and the next day walked into the little two bit town, had 100 troops surrender to me, and gotten NM and VP.

That doesn't make any sense.


Gaining NM from a surrender is preventable - but if your opponent chooses to give you NM - why complain/argue.

You are correct that there are weird battle results - but again if all results were the same, we would have less of a challenge.

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havi
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Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:40 pm

I didnt mean hard coding or something like that. But VPs are what i think Political points what u can spend a Political deceseions as NM r to and if u Dont have enough VPs no Political deceseions because linconl cant do those. Sorry finglish again.

FelixZ
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Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:45 pm

ajarnlance wrote:I don't think that hard coding the historical path is what people are asking for. I agree with you that many different outcomes should be possible depending on the strategies adopted by players... those fascinating "what ifs?" of history... which are fun to think about and interesting to try and recreate. The game should allow a variety of different outcomes (some more likely, some less likely) that could have happened in the real war had different decisions been made. BUT what should NOT be allowed in the game are entirely implausible scenarios. One of those is the Union being extremely passive and not attacking, not invading for two years. This would have been disastrous historically and so should be severely penalised in the game. Doing this won't drive a player down ONE predetermined path. In fact, it will open the game up more as the Union players who are playing it safe, sitting and building, will have to adopt new strategies to win. You will end up with more variety in games, not less, if you actively discourage the Union from being a turtle for half the game.


Players choose their own actions. We may not agree with someone else's path - sometimes that results in conflict.

I like the game as is - but there always can be improvement. And we differ on how.

FelixZ
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Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:54 pm

ajarnlance wrote:+1. Maybe the 1862 Congressional Elections should be an event in the game... penalties for the Union if there haven't been some successes by then. I think this is the crux of the issue... the political pressure on the Union generals to do something... I am not an advocate of forcing the Union player down a narrow path. The "do something" could be on any front, in any theatre, on land, in the rivers, on the coast... the possibilities remain very open... but NOT fighting/ attaining some kind of victory somewhere should be severely penalised.


Since AAWC the game has steadily moved away from being a historical simulation. Mainly by taking away from the Union to provide a more balanced war-game.

We've lost historical artillery upgrades, contested Manassas event, Stockade Warfare providing CSA with more VP possibilities and gutting of the historical Anaconda Plan.

I hold that the above has not been necessary. Why, - better players gravitate to the more challenging side (CSA) and still win games.

Sure, rules and ideas can and should be tweaked to improve playability - but historical simulation should always be heavily considered.

NormanMeek
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Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:18 pm

My main complaint wasn't that the Union can delay invading the south without penalty (although that is a problem). As the CSA I conquered and held all of New Mexico, destroyed every enemy fort in Kansas and Oklahoma, had raiders running all around the north until they were wiped out, and built numerous forts all around the South. The Union player did take several coastal forts from South and also Manassas and Norfolk, but did not advance further. When he finally moved south in 1863 and the little town militias started to surrender, a death spiral began when his overwhelming armies started to win battles and my NM plummeted. The game ended with the CSA having a substantial VP advantage, but the Union only in control of Nashville and Norfolk. I simply wanted to continue the game to see if he could take places like Richmond, Atlanta, Memphis and New Orleans, but the game quickly devolved into a confederate surrender (and ended before he even got to my main fortified lines).

Here's the real problem: on the turn before the game ended, Stonewall Jackson won a major battle against Grant, causing him more than 15k casualties. But because of my losses the victory only gained me 1 NM, whereas I lost 6 NM on the same turn mostly because of FIXED town garrisons and another fort garrison surrendering to other advancing armies. With my NM dropping by that much in one turn, I was doomed to lose all of the major battles the next turn, which is exactly what happened, causing an instant CSA surrender due to a NM collapse.

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Ace
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Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:25 pm

Hi, quite a discussion we have here. I agree with some points said here, and don't agree with some. So let me take time and elaborate my opinion on the matter.

1) The game favors the Union player.
True.

2) We should eliminate NM effect on combat.
I don't agree with it. From the time of AACW, because of NM resilience, NM has lost lot of its importance. Don't take away only advantage CSA player has early on, it is NM effect on the battle. Historically, eagerness in the fight for the independence had lot of influence in Southern success, not only better generals and home terrain.

3) Effects of small militias surrendering.
It is the surrender mechanisam at fault here wich gives 1 NM for surrender, regarless if it is milita or an Army. Perhaps code should check how large force has surrendered, but would require Pocus time and not just scripting an event.

4) Union player does not have same historical pressure Lincoln did.
True.
The game models it with two on to Richmond events. The problem with this event is it is too hardcoded to capture specific city or to go near Richmond. Manassas is almost impossible to take, so few players try it, while second on to Richmond requirement is too easy to accomplish.
I would propose different system. A requirement for the Union player (player only, not AI) to have xx VP per regular intervals, or face NM penalty. So, Union player would be free to go either with ahistorical or historical route of attack, as long as he has to attack. If he is passive - not gathering VP points, he should be penalized from Home front.

What do you think about this suggestion. Such thing could be relatively easily moded, but I would do it only after VP Stockade exploit is fixed. Stockades unbalance the VP system too much...

FelixZ
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Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:28 pm

NormanMeek wrote:
Here's the real problem: on the turn before the game ended, Stonewall Jackson won a major battle against Grant, causing him more than 15k casualties. But because of my losses the victory only gained me 1 NM, whereas I lost 6 NM on the same turn mostly because of FIXED town garrisons and another fort garrison surrendering to other advancing armies. With my NM dropping by that much in one turn, I was doomed to lose all of the major battles the next turn, which is exactly what happened, causing an instant CSA surrender due to a NM collapse.


Please recognize that you could have prevented the surrenders!

Just move the garrison(s) out of the besieged structure (I use B/G stance)!

You will not lose NM. You will probably lose the resulting battle and if your defender survives, it will probably retreat back into the structure. Next turn just move back out of the structure.

There are times to stay inside a structure or outside a structure - depends on the situation/circumstance.

FelixZ
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Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:36 pm

Ace wrote:Hi, quite a discussion we have here. I agree with some points said here, and don't agree with some. So let me take time and elaborate my opinion on the matter.

1) The game favors the Union player.
True.

2) We should eliminate NM effect on combat.
I don't agree with it. From the time of AACW, because of NM resilience, NM has lost lot of its importance. Don't take away only advantage CSA player has early on, it is NM effect on the battle. Historically, eagerness in the fight for the independence had lot of influence in Southern success, not only better generals and home terrain.

3) Effects of small militias surrendering.
It is the surrender mechanisam at fault here wich gives 1 NM for surrender, regarless if it is milita or an Army. Perhaps code should check how large force has surrendered, but would require Pocus time and not just scripting an event.

4) Union player does not have same historical pressure Lincoln did.
True.
The game models it with two on to Richmond events. The problem with this event is it is too hardcoded to capture specific city or to go near Richmond. Manassas is almost impossible to take, so few players try it, while second on to Richmond requirement is too easy to accomplish.
I would propose different system. A requirement for the Union player (player only, not AI) to have xx VP per regular intervals, or face NM penalty. So, Union player would be free to go either with ahistorical or historical route of attack, as long as he has to attack. If he is passive - not gathering VP points, he should be penalized from Home front.

What do you think about this suggestion. Such thing could be relatively easily moded, but I would do it only after VP Stockade exploit is fixed. Stockades unbalance the VP system too much...


Hi Ace, (i'm taking away from TEAW turn) … .

A good step would be to do something about Manassas event. The expected result - heavily weighted NM imbalance for CSA, probably has something to do with Union reluctance to advance for a couple of years.

There was an idea in this thread to have multiple ways to satisfy Manassas event (which really is only a push for Union to attack). The post envisions other attacks/successes to satisfy the event - in other areas of the map.

Another possibility would be to satisfy the event by having the Union attack and be beaten at Manassas - resulting in no -10 NM loss - only the battle result.

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Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:01 pm

Ace wrote:4) Union player does not have same historical pressure Lincoln did.
True.
The game models it with two on to Richmond events. The problem with this event is it is too hardcoded to capture specific city or to go near Richmond. Manassas is almost impossible to take, so few players try it, while second on to Richmond requirement is too easy to accomplish.
I would propose different system. A requirement for the Union player (player only, not AI) to have xx VP per regular intervals, or face NM penalty. So, Union player would be free to go either with ahistorical or historical route of attack, as long as he has to attack. If he is passive - not gathering VP points, he should be penalized from Home front.

What do you think about this suggestion. Such thing could be relatively easily moded, but I would do it only after VP Stockade exploit is fixed. Stockades unbalance the VP system too much...


Interesting idea, I could get behind this idea.

Of course I'm not too bothered by NM events being linked to specific locations. I was actually thinking along the lines of having a NM hit every 6 months, starting in April 62, for each of the following cities:

Charleston
Atlanta
Mobile
New Orleans
Vicksburg
Chattanooga
Nashville
Memphis
Little Rock
( I would say Richmond, but events pretty well cover it)

I would say 1 city, 1 NM hit. If you are missing a few, no big deal (esp. Considering how much you get back in NR) but if you miss all of them, it starts to add up. By my understanding, most of those are already strategic cities, so the Union will get a NM bonus when it captures them.

It might also be worth considering raising the 1864 Election event fail level to 75NM (from the 60NM it is currently....if I remember right.)

But, like I said Ace, I like your idea too!

P.S. add Richmond to the list, start the clock from June 61, and kill the Manasas event is another idea.

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Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:02 pm

A requirement for the Union player (player only, not AI) to have xx VP per regular intervals, or face NM penalty. So, Union player would be free to go either with ahistorical or historical route of attack, as long as he has to attack. If he is passive - not gathering VP points, he should be penalized from Home front.

Not sure I agree with this, although I'll have to think about it. That does have a touch more of the flavor of what was the final solution to the Union problem, which wasn't to take Richmond or other territory.

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havi
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Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:20 pm

What have i been saing allday we use the VPs to determine how good u are doing as union player...

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Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:23 pm

Seems there is a lot of desire to force USA players to take actions that they normally do not attempt. The offered/discussed method to make USA players play differently is to hard code penalties if the USA player does not achieve specified results.

Would not this result in more failures by the affected USA players?

If a USA player is naturally not aggressive - wouldn't forcing him/her to adopt an alien posture bring more failure - and result in more CSA victories?

FelixZ
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Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:29 pm

havi wrote:What have i been saing allday we use the VPs to determine how good u are doing as union player...


Hi Havi, as per a discussion with Pgr, Victory is the eye of the beholder! Pgr wrote to me that he will feel he's won if he survives!

As you say VP is a guide but NM is the real decider - even if a NM victory is not reached. With high NM you can take most of the map.

Always think about the great game that would have been played between Liberty Bell and yourself!

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Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:37 pm

We've given Union historical advantage in men and materials. It is only right to give Union player the historical burden of political pressure to act or face change in the Office...

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pgr
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Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:45 pm

FelixZ wrote:Seems there is a lot of desire to force USA players to take actions that they normally do not attempt. The offered/discussed method to make USA players play differently is to hard code penalties if the USA player does not achieve specified results.

Would not this result in more failures by the affected USA players?

If a USA player is naturally not aggressive - wouldn't forcing him/her to adopt an alien posture bring more failure - and result in more CSA victories?


I wouldn't say I would be trying to get Union players to do something they would not normally do. These are objectives the game already sets for the union through Vp and NM rewards. I just think of it as upping the incentive... I suppose in an attempt to speed up the the pace a bit. And I suppose it would tend to force a slow Union player out of his comfort zone...but that seems appropriate to me. Left to his own devices, il sure Meclellen would have waited until he was good and ready in 1863 to start his grand campaign...

FelixZ
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Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:58 pm

Ace wrote:We've given Union historical advantage in men and materials. It is only right to give Union player the historical burden of political pressure to act or face change in the Office...


Ending the game with a peace settlement because of Union hesitancy?

Perhaps a good idea! How about a check once a year.

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Wed Oct 29, 2014 7:05 pm

I'd like to suggest an alternative (or additional) impetus to Union players: start increasing Foreign Intervention regularly if the Union player isn't achieving objectives in 1861 & 1862.
A European mediation was certainly possible, early on, if the Confederates hadn't lost the Mississippi and been pushed back into Virginia.

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pgr
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Wed Oct 29, 2014 7:34 pm

ohms_law wrote:I'd like to suggest an alternative (or additional) impetus to Union players: start increasing Foreign Intervention regularly if the Union player isn't achieving objectives in 1861 & 1862.
A European mediation was certainly possible, early on, if the Confederates hadn't lost the Mississippi and been pushed back into Virginia.


I like the idea, although if something is done with VP/NM this will filter to FI (which goes up or down depending on who is leading in NM and VP...if I understand correctly.)

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Wed Oct 29, 2014 7:56 pm

I think the difficult thing is how to determine--through events--if the Union player is acting aggressive enough to satisfy the politicians and the public in general.

Events like '61 Manassas only force the player to do exactly what he must and nothing else. In fact the Union could take all of the Shenandoah and the Peninsula right up to Richmond, and he's still get kicked in the teeth for not having Manassas.

What would be logical, but I don't think can be scripted, would be if the game could discover how much the Union player advanced relative to where he was at a fixed point-in-time. But AFAIK that's not possible.

Barring that, the only thing I can think of is the list of strategic and objective locations. I don't think you would necessarily have to set it up so that for all of those locations the Union took a -1NM hit for those he doesn't have, but for each year an increasing number must be in Union hands. I believe that could be done.
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Wed Oct 29, 2014 8:09 pm

Some devils advocacy:

1- Political pressure on Union to move South. I agree, but I disagree. While there was obviously political pressure to march on Richmond and end the war, there was as much (or more) fallout on the home front when the armies moved south and those monstrous casualty lists started being printed in the local papers. What would be worse, sitting in Cairo until '63, or moving on Cornith and having to print the names of two thousand sons and fathers in the local paper due to Shiloh.

2- The North moved South right away. That is false. South Carolina seceded December 20th of 1860. McDowell first moved south and engaged the Rebel army on July 20th 1861. That is SEVEN MONTHS. If an obscure law of 1793 came out a little different (that was the 90 day enlistment thing), McDowell could have stalled till the fall, probably lost anyway, and the Union would have sat out the winter. Which means that in real life there would have been a single movement towards Richmond from December of 1860 until May of 1862.

3 - This is a game of what ifs. Please treat it as such, and allow that historical sandboxing to happen.

4 - The Anaconda plan. The original plan of how to beat the South. Had zero reference to taking Richmond. Building an inland navy and a seagoing navy and starving the South to death was a real life plan. That did not require a march on Richmond.

5 - About penalties for midterm elections - anyone here ever play 'No Greater Glory' on MS-DOS? If you had one major setback in the early year of the war, you were going to lose the midterm election, whose penalties were so severe that you couldn't raise taxes or troops. While I love No Greater Glory, I don't want CW2 to be that game.

6 - The northern papers were just as concerned with protecting northern places and property as they were with capturing confederate places and property. There's a plaque on the wall of the courthouse in my town that commemorates the protests that kept the local artillery here, and kept them from being transferred to the front. While Horace Greeley wanted every brigade in Pennsylvania to pick up and march south, every local newspaper in Pennsylvania wanted all those brigades to dig in and stay.

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Wed Oct 29, 2014 8:31 pm

Captain_Orso wrote:Barring that, the only thing I can think of is the list of strategic and objective locations. I don't think you would necessarily have to set it up so that for all of those locations the Union took a -1NM hit for those he doesn't have, but for each year an increasing number must be in Union hands. I believe that could be done.


Sort of like the cities I proposed above? :)

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Wed Oct 29, 2014 8:51 pm

Yes I think this game lacks the political pressure what union leadership felt in that time, the CSA objective was never to conquer north their objective was Independece and union needs to keep union in one. I don't say we need to force player to all out attack in 61, but I say there should be somekind pressure to advance and made the play. Run the ball and grind the oppo, not just sit in your entrenchments and play on your manly parts (it is fun too) but if u do that then there should be consequences. I don't know what can b mod or not u all are more better than that but let's do something fun and made this game even better it is now.

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Wed Oct 29, 2014 11:35 pm

Just something for players:

If you're playing Union and you like sieging all those paltry towns for the NM, you're wasting a golden opportunity for promotions.

If you're CSA, give Jo and Wiz all the cavalry you can afford as quickly as possible. Not only can you bootstrap potential corps commanders to them, but the first time you crush Cincinnati and the seven or so brigades your opponent is trying to recruit there, he'll very quickly get conservative and stop pressing you so hard.

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Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:38 am

Ace wrote:We've given Union historical advantage in men and materials. It is only right to give Union player the historical burden of political pressure to act or face change in the Office...


As the Union player in the PBEM that started this thread, I agree with the issue of 1 NM for small militia surrenders, but as FelixZ points out there is work-around where you don't leave the unit inside the city. I agree a hard-coded fix is advisable, perhaps by setting a battle size threshold for any NM shift from a combat. But I understand the frustration and it is one that cuts across the two sides. Many is the big key battle a Union player has won with little to no NM gain as well.

Part of the reason I suspect many Union player do not rocket south right out of the box is the reality of their early inferiority in leaders and lack of significant numerical advantage until maybe mid-62'. Hindsight is a problem here, as it is in every wargame simulation. Unlike their RL counterparts Lincoln and Davis, the players know exactly what the leaders can do and exactly how stacked the odds are against the North until they get Grant and some others promoted.

Bear in mind as well that rarely do you find CSA players behaving in a scripted historical sense, so you have to be careful putting a straight-jacket on the North. In our game, a cautious Northern strategy made sense to me given that a very aggressive opponent was carrying out simultaneous invasions of New Mexico/Colorado and Kansas/Missouri, (the former led by Bedford Forrest) plus the early appearance of Jackson (followed by Lee) out West. Raiders were all over the North, with a brief cavalry siege of Chicago and at end game one rebel raider was rattling around Northern Pennsylvania not far from the Canadian border. My opponent also had an intensive fort building program that turned much of the South into a close approximation of 18th century Flanders (and required Marlborough-style strategies to overcome). All these sorts of things are welcome and present fascinating challenges. But if you, on the one hand, allow the CSA player to try anything creative they can manage, it becomes problematic to demand the Union player do X, Y or Z by date certain or suffer the consequences. The current "On to Richmond" rules show the pitfalls, as any CSA player worth their salt packs Manassas to ensure the North has near-zero chance of winning 1st Bull Run (and adding needlessly to the near-certain 10 NM hit the North takes from that event).

In essence, the cautious approach taken by many Union players is a natural reaction to the myriad creative things many CSA players can attempt in the game. While some may demand as proof of Northern prowess that they take New Orleans or Memphis by the historical date or suffer the consequences, in the game the Union player is unlikely to have either of these cities surrender simply when the Union Navy pulls up to the dock (which is what happened historically, more or less, in both cases).

I would add that is it debatable historically whether time was on the side of the Confederacy, as opposed to the Union. As Shelby Foote put it once, many feel the North fought the war with one hand tied behind their back. If they got into real difficulty, they would have pulled the other hand out. Certainly the foreign powers (France, Britain) who toyed with a pro-Southern intervention didn't take for granted their success (sober British military thinking at the time warned war with the US would almost certainly mean the loss of Canada). The Union, as time went on, was in a similar position to the US in WW2 versus Japan. Once the early knockout blows were weathered, the weaker side was inexorably ground down. The Union from 1861-1865 was arguably one of the first major nations to fully harness the early industrial revolution to high-tech war-making.

I agree ACW2 does favor the North in the long game. I am not so sure adding penalities to force certain Union play is the best answer though. Especially where, IMO, it is paired with a very generous portrayal of the Confederacies own freedom of action. The CSA scheme for forward defense of the Kentucky-Mississippi-Tennessee line, which Grant cracked so decisively at Fort Donelson, was based on a political imperative they felt not to "surrender one inch" of southern soil. You can think up a variety of political constraints which were felt by both sides and which manifested in their strategies.

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Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:08 am

FelixZ wrote:Since AAWC the game has steadily moved away from being a historical simulation. Mainly by taking away from the Union to provide a more balanced war-game.

We've lost historical artillery upgrades, contested Manassas event, Stockade Warfare providing CSA with more VP possibilities and gutting of the historical Anaconda Plan.

I hold that the above has not been necessary. Why, - better players gravitate to the more challenging side (CSA) and still win games.

Sure, rules and ideas can and should be tweaked to improve playability - but historical simulation should always be heavily considered.


I agree. I love history and I am sad to learn that the game has moved away from history in some areas. I never played the original AACW but I would like to see more realism like the artillery upgrades and more emphasis on Anaconda. I guess this thread is also discussing whether or not putting some political pressure on the Union player to attack earlier is called for. I would argue that the Union player NOT attacking until 1863 would never have worked historically and so should be discouraged somehow in the game. I am all for exploring the "what if's?" of history (it is what is so appealing about these games) but not if those what ifs are totally implausible historically.

Also I think the NM hit for having fixed garrisons overrun needs to be fixed. Maybe the NM hit for taking a city should be tied to the strategic importance of the city. If the city is not important then there should be no NM hit.
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Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:50 am

pgr wrote:Sort of like the cities I proposed above? :)

dat's wuht I wut talkin' about ;)
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Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:59 am

Just to join in.

My understanding is the original strategic mistake the South made was to try and defend everywhere. That meant that somewhere the Union had to have numerical advantage, even as early as 1862 and this created the space and momentum for Grant's 1862-3 campaigns in the West?

In game, I think a Confederate player needs to decide if a given theatre is to be defensive or offensive in the early game and I think there are roughly 4/5 - Virginia, Kentucky, Mississipi, Kansas, Far West. If its a defensive theatre then almost by definition you need less than the Union has in that sector so that somewhere you have a real advantage. For the Union, one reason to be aggressive early on is to keep the Confederate player uncertain how to play this ... so by attacking in the East, really to distract and pin down, you can create the scope to make progress elsewhere. A Union player who simply sits back and waits, runs the risk of allowing a Confederate player to concentrate somewhere and make real progress.

From that perspective, there is plenty of motivation towards aggression and feints on both sides in the early phases?

Overall, yes the game is unbalanced, but as above, so was the war. Its up to the Confederate player to make the most of their early game advantages?
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ajarnlance
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Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:52 am

loki100 wrote:Just to join in.

My understanding is the original strategic mistake the South made was to try and defend everywhere. That meant that somewhere the Union had to have numerical advantage, even as early as 1862 and this created the space and momentum for Grant's 1862-3 campaigns in the West?

In game, I think a Confederate player needs to decide if a given theatre is to be defensive or offensive in the early game and I think there are roughly 4/5 - Virginia, Kentucky, Mississipi, Kansas, Far West. If its a defensive theatre then almost by definition you need less than the Union has in that sector so that somewhere you have a real advantage. For the Union, one reason to be aggressive early on is to keep the Confederate player uncertain how to play this ... so by attacking in the East, really to distract and pin down, you can create the scope to make progress elsewhere. A Union player who simply sits back and waits, runs the risk of allowing a Confederate player to concentrate somewhere and make real progress.

From that perspective, there is plenty of motivation towards aggression and feints on both sides in the early phases?

Overall, yes the game is unbalanced, but as above, so was the war. Its up to the Confederate player to make the most of their early game advantages?


Yes, I think Davis called the South's "strategy" an "offensive/ defensive" maybe what is meant nowadays by "the best form of defense is a good offense". Choosing which theatres to prioritise is one of the fascinating aspects of the game. I think though that the political pressure on the Union to act needs to be modeled more accurately. Exactly what "actions" should be taken should be left up to the Union player...
"I can anticipate no greater calamity for the country than the dissolution of the Union... and I am willing to sacrifice everything but honor for its preservation." Robert E. Lee (1807-1870)



Check out my 'To End All Wars' AAR: http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?38262-The-Kaiser-report-the-CP-side-of-the-war-against-Jinx-and-PJL

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Captain_Orso
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Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:54 am

havi wrote:Yes I think this game lacks the political pressure what union leadership felt in that time ....


Rail-Splitter Lincoln wrote:You are green, it is true; but they are green, also; you are green alike.


For the Union, this should always be the clear and present danger.

The Union isn't balking at attacking because he is building up forces. He's balking for exactly one reason. He knows his good leaders are coming in '63. I should know; I've waited out a few '63's.

Once the Union soldier learned his trade, Lincolns quote became both correct and wrong at the same time. Neither man in field--neither Johnny Reb nor Billy Yank--was green anymore than the other. But the Southern man was more motivated because defending his own soil and for fighting with leaders who he loved and who inspired him to go that last measure for his leaders, his fellow soldiers, his family, his state and his land, and the Northern men were not able nor willing to compensate for the shortcomings of their leaders through spilling their own blood. Once the Southern leadership in battle had the Union soldiers hard pressed to hold his ground, because most Norther generals had no good-idea and generally did not inspire his men to fight on, fight harder, the Northern men said to hell with it and saved their hides..

The players know what the real life politicians eventually learned, or eventually were then not bothered with. Once the Union player hits mid-63 he has no reason to stay his hand and will start his largest offensives. After that any measures to 'force' the Union player to be aggressive would be preaching to the choir. It's only the first 2 years in which the Union needs some prodding.
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Merlin
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Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:15 pm

Captain_Orso wrote:For the Union, this should always be the clear and present danger.

The Union isn't balking at attacking because he is building up forces. He's balking for exactly one reason. He knows his good leaders are coming in '63. I should know; I've waited out a few '63's.

Once the Union soldier learned his trade, Lincolns quote became both correct and wrong at the same time. Neither man in field--neither Johnny Reb nor Billy Yank--was green anymore than the other. But the Southern man was more motivated because defending his own soil and for fighting with leaders who he loved and who inspired him to go that last measure for his leaders, his fellow soldiers, his family, his state and his land, and the Northern men were not able nor willing to compensate for the shortcomings of their leaders through spilling their own blood. Once the Southern leadership in battle had the Union soldiers hard pressed to hold his ground, because most Norther generals had no good-idea and generally did not inspire his men to fight on, fight harder, the Northern men said to hell with it and saved their hides..

The players know what the real life politicians eventually learned, or eventually were then not bothered with. Once the Union player hits mid-63 he has no reason to stay his hand and will start his largest offensives. After that any measures to 'force' the Union player to be aggressive would be preaching to the choir. It's only the first 2 years in which the Union needs some prodding.


'61 in the East is suicide, '61 in the West is a hard push against Johnny Reb.

'62 in the East is a slog, but I make progress. '62 in the West is all about garrisons and Grant.

'63 in both theaters is all-out attack. I wait for the big offensives because my '62 armies aren't very well organized, and it's not so much lack of leadership as it is having large enough armies to maneuver and win while also having the forces to garrison what you take.

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