minipol
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Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:37 am

ArmChairGeneral wrote:minipol, is it doing you any good?


It pulls in supplies. All I can tell is that major coastal cities with harbors have a lot of supplies and ammo.
This can be attributed to some of the arsenals and armories I've build, but not these big amounts I think.
I've build about 8 to 10 industries primarily arsenals and armories, but only up until 1862, from 1863 onwards, I have no money to do so.

Maybe other people can chime in to tell what numbers they see on their shores.
Some of the numbers.

Brownsville: 686/486
Galveston: 859/576
New Orleans: 4204/1738
Mobile: 2185/770
Savannah: 2303/921
Charleston: 2134/809
Wilmington: 2198/949
Norfolk: 570/217
RIchmond: 2734/1001

khbynum
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Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:54 pm

Regarding the effectiveness of Confederate commerce raiders, according to Tom Chaffin (Sea of Gray, about the cruise of the CSS Shenandoah), admittedly a secondary source, the USA lost more than half of its merchant fleet tonnage during the Civil War. 110,000 tons were lost to CSA raiders and 800,000 tons were sold to foreign buyers, mostly English, because the owners no longer wanted to risk their loss. England then displaced the USA as the largest merchant carrier in the world, a position we didn't regain until German U-boats devastated Britain's merchant marine in WW1. I'd say that validates Ol' Choctaw's statement ("The CSA Destroyed the US merchant fleet. It never really recovered."). And no, we don't see that in the game.

By the way, I'd like to chime in on the side of people who think this game should not try to simulate the Civil War as it actually occurred, but rather simulate the conditions under which it was fought so that we may explore alternate possibilities.

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Keeler
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Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:43 pm

khbynum wrote:Regarding the effectiveness of Confederate commerce raiders, according to Tom Chaffin (Sea of Gray, about the cruise of the CSS Shenandoah), admittedly a secondary source, the USA lost more than half of its merchant fleet tonnage during the Civil War. 110,000 tons were lost to CSA raiders and 800,000 tons were sold to foreign buyers, mostly English, because the owners no longer wanted to risk their loss. England then displaced the USA as the largest merchant carrier in the world, a position we didn't regain until German U-boats devastated Britain's merchant marine in WW1. I'd say that validates Ol' Choctaw's statement ("The CSA Destroyed the US merchant fleet. It never really recovered."). And no, we don't see that in the game.

By the way, I'd like to chime in on the side of people who think this game should not try to simulate the Civil War as it actually occurred, but rather simulate the conditions under which it was fought so that we may explore alternate possibilities.


As historical side note, the Civil War's outfall decimated the whaling fleets as well. That industry never recovered from the war.
"Thank God. I thought it was a New York Regiment."- Unknown Confederate major, upon learning he had surrendered to the 6th Wisconsin.

khbynum
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Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:44 pm

That's true, but the whaling industry would have declined despite the havoc wrought by the CSS Shenandoah, due to overharvesting and the rise of petroleum-based fuels. In fact, by the last year of the war Confederate raiders were having a hard time finding any Union merchantmen to burn, hence the raid on the North Pacific whaling fleet. Did the raiders affect the outcome of the war? No, because the Union was self-sufficient for war supplies. Did they draw away enough ships from blockading duty to help the South obtain supplies from abroad? Probably, but who knows. They did devastate the Union merchant marine, quite an accomplishment for really only a handful of successful raiders. The Union seems to have taken the attitude, and strategy, that they really didn't matter and could be ignored past a token response. The whaling fleet was based out of New England, a hard-core abolitionist region that, despite Yankee commercialism, wasn't likely to give up on the war as the South hoped.

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GraniteStater
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Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:36 am

the USA lost more than half of its merchant fleet tonnage during the Civil War. 110,000 tons were lost to CSA raiders and 800,000 tons were sold to foreign buyers, mostly English, because the owners no longer wanted to risk their loss. England then displaced the USA as the largest merchant carrier in the world, a position we didn't regain until German U-boats devastated Britain's merchant marine in WW1. I'd say that validates Ol' Choctaw's statement ("The CSA Destroyed the US merchant fleet. It never really recovered.").


I really don't like getting into extended historical discussions on this forum because there is a place for these - the Historical forum. Nonetheless, let me try to be clear:

* USA lost more than half of its merchant fleet tonnage during the Civil War. 110,000 tons were lost to CSA raiders and 800,000 tons were sold to foreign buyers, mostly English Aha! A real figure or two. Still would need a bit of clarification, viz.:

> Define 'lost'. Are we to conclude that, in 1860, the US MM was about a little less than 2,000,000 tons? Seems to be the implication.

> I believe I speculated above that perhaps a good many vessels were reflagged. This seems to be the case. Is a reflagged vessel "destroyed"? Is it "lost"?

* My only objection, above, and here, is the construction of the assertions. Seems to me that out of probably near 2,000,000 tons, 110,000 were lost outright and almost half were reflagged. I'm sorry, but to say that the US MM was 'destroyed" and "never recovered' is inaccurate.

* If O'C (whose opinions I value, because for one thing, he knows a lot more about the game mechanics than I do), had stated, "The US MM was seriously hurt, chiefly through reflagging and some well-deserved success by Southern raiders; hurt so much that it didn't regain its pre-eminent position until [whenever]," - well, that's a fair statement.

* Why do I say this? Merely to point out that a sober historian avoids terms like 'destroyed' and 'never recovered'. To say, "The Byzantine empire suffered a series of disasters in 1204 and the years shortly thereafter, chiefly from the Western Crusaders, disasters from which the empire never recovered," is a fair and honest historical assessment, because the picture painted is true. To say, "Western civilization suffered a Dark Age of 1000 years after the fall of Rome in the fifth century," is honest (it's not an outright lie), but much too facile and to a large degree, unfair, because it glosses over too many important developments, one of which is the astounding 'fact' that music did not suffer a Dark Age and one can make a very plausible case that it flourished; another 'fact' (forgive the quotes, I'm being lazy) contravening the facile portrait is the development of Northern Europe, the invention of the stirrup and horse collar and the use of machines (particularly mills) by medieval people on a scale that the Romans never approached.

* One should tread lightly when tempted to make sweeping assertions about history - there's usually someone just waiting for you with three dozen dusty manuscripts he's just dying to use. Again, "The US MM suffered greatly and was relegated to trailing the UK in post-war blue water commerce" - I won't argue, seems to be the case. 'Destroyed' and 'never recovered' is what astonished me.
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]
-Daniel Webster

[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]
-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898

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GraniteStater
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Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:03 am

Back on topic, after a bit of thought;

* I wrote a lengthy screed in AACW along much the same lines as I did above - call it the Jolly Tar All-out Approach. Fine, as far as it goes. There's another way, though, namely:

* The Who Cares? approach. Just do Just Enough to Get By. 40%, 50% in the Blockade Boxes; no brown water at all, just enough river Stuff to work your will where you want and keep Johnny Reb's nautical head down. Plow all the Stuff you saved from not building a huge navy into the army.
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]

-Daniel Webster



[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]

-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898



RULES

(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.

(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.





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khbynum
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Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:57 am

GraniteStater wrote:I really don't like getting into extended historical discussions on this forum because there is a place for these - the Historical forum. Nonetheless, let me try to be clear:

* USA lost more than half of its merchant fleet tonnage during the Civil War. 110,000 tons were lost to CSA raiders and 800,000 tons were sold to foreign buyers, mostly English Aha! A real figure or two. Still would need a bit of clarification, viz.:

> Define 'lost'. Are we to conclude that, in 1860, the US MM was about a little less than 2,000,000 tons? Seems to be the implication.

> I believe I speculated above that perhaps a good many vessels were reflagged. This seems to be the case. Is a reflagged vessel "destroyed"? Is it "lost"?

* My only objection, above, and here, is the construction of the assertions. Seems to me that out of probably near 2,000,000 tons, 110,000 were lost outright and almost half were reflagged. I'm sorry, but to say that the US MM was 'destroyed" and "never recovered' is inaccurate.



I didn't know there was an historical forum. Can you point it out to me? I'd love to participate. As for reflagging, yes, the vessels still delivered war supplies to the US (and the CSA), but they were no longer part of the US merchant marine, hence they were lost (as in, no longer owned by citizens of the USA and contributing to that country's economy). For the actual figures, I'm taking the word of a professional, published historian. I'm just an amateur. I don't see what the Byzantine Empire has to do with a discussion of Civil War history.

I do remember that this is a game forum and I don't think the rules misrepresent the role of commerce raiders. In fact they had little effect on the war and they have little effect in the game. If the CSA could have launched dozens of such ships, they would have sailed around looking in vain for anything to burn.

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GraniteStater
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Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:17 am

Final words:

* The History forum link is at the top of the main CW2 forum page.

* 'Lost' is a bramble thicket. When you get into reflagging and how merchant vessels are registered, operated, etc., not to mention whose bank accounts end up with the revenues, you are entering a complex subject - and I'm certainly no expert.
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]

-Daniel Webster



[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]

-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898



RULES

(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.

(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.





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minipol
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Sat Feb 22, 2014 3:07 am

khbynum wrote:As for reflagging, yes, the vessels still delivered war supplies to the US (and the CSA), but they were no longer part of the US merchant marine, hence they were lost (as in, no longer owned by citizens of the USA and contributing to that country's economy)


There is a contradiction in the above sentence. The transports in the game matter because they provide supplies. It really doesn't matter if they were Union or English ships, the result apparently was the same.
You said they still delivered supplies to the Union. Translated to the game, this means that we don't have to take in account the fact that they were reflagged. Because wether British or Union, the end result
was the Union got supplies.

khbynum
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Sat Feb 22, 2014 3:32 am

Hello minipol,

We're getting the game and history confused. My fault, I let my dispute with GraniteStater get in the way of clarity. I really don't know how the game handles USA overseas supply. I didn't mean the sentence you quoted to apply to the game, only to history. Maybe I should take my comments to the history forum GS cited. Or just shut up.

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GraniteStater
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Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:13 am

khbynum wrote:Hello minipol,

We're getting the game and history confused. My fault, I let my dispute with GraniteStater get in the way of clarity. I really don't know how the game handles USA overseas supply. I didn't mean the sentence you quoted to apply to the game, only to history. Maybe I should take my comments to the history forum GS cited. Or just shut up.


It's straightforward, the Shipping Box. The more TP ability you have, the more Overseas Supply capability you have - but not all will get used, necessarily, 'cuz it's your overseas demanders who determine how much is needed for a Turn, i. e., the more guys you have in New Orleans, Mobile, Savannah, the odd hamlet on the coast, the more is needed per Turn - over seas.

Which, as Ol'Choctaw mentioned, bears upon Depots - when you land and end up making your Base somewhere for that operation, build a Depot. As I said on another thread, "don't argue, just do it." Why? Because that's how the system works - Fts Monroe & Pickens get Stuff, 'cuz they are Forts in a category we can regard as 'demanders' - the smaller size 1 and 2 towns are not, essentially - the technicalities are somewhat irrelevant here, the moral is, if it ain't New Orleans or some other City with a goodly Supply to start with, build the Depot - just do it, you will be much, much more happy. It beats scrambling 'cuz two Divs are about to go poof!

And the Shipping Box brings WS & $$ to you - it will deliver the most what you need the most, either one.
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]

-Daniel Webster



[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]

-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898



RULES

(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.

(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.





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moni kerr
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Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:25 pm

GraniteStater wrote:Cuzza the F&A rig on the mizzen. I should have more exactly written "mizzen spanker".


I'd heard it was "friggin in the riggin" not "friggin in mizzen".

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GraniteStater
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Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:58 pm

nyuk nyuk nyuk
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]

-Daniel Webster



[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]

-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898



RULES

(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.

(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.





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ArmChairGeneral
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Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:50 pm

kybynum:

Maybe I should take my comments to the history forum GS cited. Or just shut up.


Don't shut up! The more people posting here the better. I don't have any friends in real life :)

Because of the nature of the game the historical analysis is often quite relevant to game topics, and though it occasionally takes over threads, I for one find that preferable to not having any discussions at all, and people generally don't get too carried away. Commerce raiding may or may not have crossed that thresh-hold, but this is still an enjoyable and informative thread, at least for me!

I suspect that there are a number of PhD historians hanging around here, which is good: free college.

I see you are a relatively new poster here, (unless you just have a new name) so am I. It is nice to have you on-board!

khbynum
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Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:28 pm

Well thank you, Sir, you just made my day. My comment, cited by GraniteStater above, was wrongly taken. I understand how supply by naval transport works, just not what effect CSA raiders have on Union supply in general. That is, how does putting raiders to sea limit or affect Union supply. In the war, it apparently didn't, or at least not enough for the Union to devote a lot of effort to running down those few raiders. Is it worth bothering with in the game? I'd really rather have Semmes commanding a nice big fleet of gunboats on the Mississippi.

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GraniteStater
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Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:48 pm

That is, how does putting raiders to sea limit or affect Union supply. In the war, it apparently didn't, or at least not enough for the Union to devote a lot of effort to running down those few raiders. Is it worth bothering with in the game?


You'll reduce the amount of Supply for overseas (I presume), WS & $$ taken in by Union Shipping.

My take is that the return for any semi-serious effort here, or more, ain't worth it. If you really started to give Athena an 'ouch', she'd probably just build more. I seriously doubt, even against Athena, that the CSA is going to win a shipyard race. Humans, of course, will try to put the kibosh on any real efforts in this direction. I usually escort Union Shipping with four steamies and a brig, to discourage raiders. Sometimes, even vs the AI, a tad more, but that's about it.

OTOH, with some actual Industrialization, etc., in CW2, maybe the CSA could get to a point where it would be worth it. Don't know if anyone has experimented with it. I do know that in a 1.02 CSA game (SGT), I was parked where I wanted to be, on the Ohio, in Maryland, in Missouri, etc., in good strength and could probably have turned in a muscle-up direction if I wanted to. Food for thought.

I have a feeling that a decent human Union player probably isn't going to let the South start on a vigorous weight lifting program & will most probably have to address the map situation more than anything else.

In the end, it's a land war. The naval effort by the Union can be quite a nice adjunct and even somewhat decisive at times, but, in the end, it's the ground that counts. The river game is probably underexploited by most players, on both sides - it could actually be more important than the seas.

Semmes in Memphis is intriguing, although Whatshisname at the outset is a good CSA naval leader (the one who starts in Memphis).
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]

-Daniel Webster



[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]

-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898



RULES

(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.

(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.





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minipol
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Sun Feb 23, 2014 2:14 am

As the CSA, you need the naval effort in the beginning but without a real big investment. Some early brigs and/or transports are fine.
Later in, as you say, you can't win, so why waste money?
I usually mass all my vessels from the rivers in one stack and go hunting for all the big stacks of the Union to secure the Mississippi.
Up until now, it has worked. It also means I have resources to spend on my armies.
It has been one of the first games where I was level with Athena as to the number of guns I bring to the field.
That's a rather fun side effect of not having to put money in a lost navy cause (at least by 1864)

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ArmChairGeneral
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Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:24 am

minipol,

I do the exact same thing, but am unable to forceUnion riverine stacks into battle consistently. Any tips? That stack has basically all my scripted riverboats, and I hang around in the Confluents, resupplying and resting in Island 10, but can't engage much of anything, including land troops using riverine transport pool. (Yes, I am in offnsive posture.)

minipol
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Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:05 pm

I usually hang out at Cairo, also in offensive posture. The bigger your fleet, the higher the chance of interception another fleet.
If another fleet manages to sail by, I target them specifically in the next turn.
That seems to work.
Also the forts are working their magic for those vessels that steam further down the Mississippi.

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