Q-Ball
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Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:30 am

Citizen X wrote:I had just noticed that ironclads can get past Island 10 without taking damage and thus an entire fleet with transports etc can get past it unhindered, making the fort a supply stopper and nothing else. Doesn't feel right. On the other hand Farragut slipped the forts in the delta and took New Orleans. So I dunno.



Farragut did run the forts. But he didn't do it with any transports, just warships. There isn't an example of the Union Navy running troop transports past a fortified position in the Civil War. It didn't happen. They always reduced the forts first. They landed NEAR the forts, in game terms right on the same region, but never PAST them.

In-game, there should be a HR against transports running batteries. Warships fine, but not transports. It's too easy to abuse in-game.

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Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:24 am

Well, if we talk about RL combat, I don't think a 2:1 advantage would have cut it against well led troops in multi trenched networks.
I know WWI might not be a good comparison but tactics hadn't evolved that much, some weapons did however.
There is a reason the biggest battles in WWI where won with gas or huge mines exploding under the trenches.
A good multi trench network is going to cost the attacker way more than 2 to 1.

That's why the generals where all about out maneuvering each other. Part of out maneuvering is forcing your opponent to move (leave
the trenches) by cutting supply. Also, attacking behind the linens (invasions) draws troops from the front, again weakening the entrenched forces,
and threatening to cut supplies.

If i remember from my last Union game, I mad sure you capture Harpers Ferry, and do not lose Alexandria/Washington.
Then invade NO, and with a smaller force just under Richmond.
I also went immediately for Fort Donelson, Ft Henry, kept Cairo and went for Rolla, and Springfield.
It's a run and you need some luck but speed is the name of the game in 1861. Afterwards, it's a whole lot more difficult.
I will play a Union campaign again when the new patch is out.

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Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:17 am

It is difficult to reenact events of the historical CW. Once the game starts, the AI has a mind of its own (according to the difficulty setting you set and the tactical clairvoyance it will get). Even if you try to do every move historically, chances are the AI will react in ways that won't make it possible to draw conclusions.

To test theories of historical but abstracted imbalance you need to start a PBEM game (with two human players or even one playing both sides) and try to move the armies as close as possible to the real thing. Here again, the battles may give different results, especially if cliffhanger. It is very VERY difficult to have real life results to prove or disprove anything.
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Ol' Choctaw
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Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:52 am

Q-Ball wrote:There was a long post on this in the Matrix forum. It's something you can do in-game, no question, but I think there needs to be a HR against it. IRL, no way the Union would sail troop transports past the forts. Ironclads and warships, sure, but not transports. It's too easy to do so in the game.

The current pace of the game, it's tougher to maintain the real life pace. I do agree the CSA had bad leadership in the west; everyone highlights the Union political generals, but the CSA had really piss-poor leadership early on out West. AS Johnston gets an incomplete because he died at Shiloh, but he certainly entrusted some bad subordinates.


Who said sail past the forts? I do what the Brits did in 1814. Land on the coast and move overland.

I have a big problem with fort running. Farragut made it past them after days of bombardment and used night to slip past. There was a lot more to it than just sailing up river.

Farragut tried sailing past Port Hudson and got pounded. Lost his fleet and had no more impact on the campaign.

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Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:56 am

At the end of the day though, it might have worked had Shiloh worked out differently or Floyd not surrendered with his entire force. Besides they had one other big problem, McClellen was in Va with 160,000 troops. Davis would have loved to have been able to send more troops west if it hadn't been all hands on deck in the east. The mass of Federals in the East effectively fixed a large part of confederate combat power in the East for the war. Not being able to achieve 2:1 in the east means one won't be able to achieve it elsewhere either. Until AI deals with the same conditions as Price, Polk, and Pillow, I wouldn't be so quick to condemn.


That may be the answer to question how to do it. The Eastern theater is the most logical to invest troops in. If played against a good opponent, Union will not make a breakthrough, BUT CSA will have to commit large part of its forces there, leaving wast West territories and Coastland empty of troops. Taking defensive approach East and going to the West may not be right choice (Union did not chose it historically, the were FORCED to it by large concentrations of best CSA troops in the East). Going only on offensive in the West leaves you with too long supply lines compared to the East.

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Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:00 am

Citizen X wrote:Funny thing is, I never felt that manpower was the main issue for the South, but money is the bottleneck. But actually only a little bit more would have made it for me. One just has to play the cards right, so to speak.

And, yet you probably used 2$ bounty every chance you got (I know I did). Now, some variety in those decisions may be the better choice.

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Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:06 pm

Ace wrote:And, yet you probably used 2$ bounty every chance you got (I know I did). Now, some variety in those decisions may be the better choice.


That's gotta have taken thousands of tests to find good balance... but I am still towards a very historical approach in unit building.
I already mentioned the counterbalances required. :)

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Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:01 pm

We will be short of cash, going with no bounty may be the best choice from now on.

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pgr
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Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:13 pm

Citizen X wrote:I had just noticed that ironclads can get past Island 10 without taking damage and thus an entire fleet with transports etc can get past it unhindered, making the fort a supply stopper and nothing else. Doesn't feel right. On the other hand Farragut slipped the forts in the delta and took New Orleans. So I dunno.


Well I have had my unarmored gunboats and transports get very mauled indeed by Island No. 10 in this game, so I tend to treat the place with some respect!

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Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:52 pm

pgr wrote:Well I have had my unarmored gunboats and transports get very mauled indeed by Island No. 10 in this game, so I tend to treat the place with some respect!


If you mix in a couple armored ships though, like Tinclads or Ironclads, they seem to absorb all the hits harmlessly. So in-game, it's actually pretty easy to get those unarmoed ships past batteries. You are right though if it's ONLY wooden ships, they'll get pummelled.

IRL, of course, the Union never sent unarmored ships cleanly past batteries. A couple times they sent steamers, but only a) with cotton and other temporary armoring, b) definitely no troops on board, c) only with the current, and at night. These were used to shuttle troops over the river, but you can still accomplish that in-game if you control the river with Ironclads.

There just needs to be a HR preventing transports from running batteries, because IRL they would not with troops on board

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Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:59 pm

Ironclads should not be proof against heavy batteries either. In the game it was based on some misconceptions. Hope we can get it changed.

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Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:07 pm

Hey Q-Ball, I think your point about batteries and transports is on the whole accurate. When transports ran batteries they were unloaded, at night, and heavily disguised etc. But it seems Farragut must have run the Fts Jackson and St. Phillip with some transports because they unloaded Ben Butler and 5,000 troops immediately on arriving in NO. That said though, he didn't just simply run the batteries, they did shell them pretty heavy with mortar craft for like a week before making the attempt. (On the side, it would be nice to have ocean going mortar schooners. As it stands, you can only build the river going kind which are a bit troublesome to use on the Atlantic and Gulf coasts)

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Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:14 pm

Butler didn't arrive until May. By that time the forts had given up. All Farragut had was a couple hundred Marines. New Orleans wouldn't surrender to him. He took the Marines into town, put up a flag and ran back to the boats. The city surrendered to Butler when he got there. In the meantime they were stripping equipment and whole factories and shipping them out of town.

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Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:35 pm

Ace wrote:And, yet you probably used 2$ bounty every chance you got (I know I did). Now, some variety in those decisions may be the better choice.


No, actually. I never went with more than 1.5 and let that drop after some times because it wouldn't make a huge difference compared to 1 most of the times. I use a lot of demonstrations, that's the only money consumer on my part, besides of troops and a one time industrialisation.
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Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:02 pm

Frankly, I think it depends on who's doing the shooting. The US Army had a separate Coastal Arty branch. That's all they did. I don't think the CSA had tons of well qualified & experienced coastal arty types ready to defend the ports. They did the best they could with whom and what they had.

Furthermore, most of the pieces were not rifled, if dim memory serves. The tech was still being explored. Again, IIRC, it was not unusual for the CSA to have muzzle loading pieces on the embrasures.

Does anyone here appreciate how hard it is to hit a moving vessel at a couple of miles or more? OTOH, the land fort is sitting still for the naval gunners (if they want to duel, that is). It was not unknown for a naval force to suppress forts - especially the US Navy, aka Guns Are Us and very well drilled & served, indeed; gunnery has always been a prime emphasis of the US Navy. There are plusses and minuses to both the fort and the vessel, but it is far from any kind of 'given'.

Favorable case for the navy - let's say some Armored frigates, some Steam frigates (I'm leaving 'clads out of it for the moment) some other escorts (brigs could be very useful: fast, maneuverable, sail in closer than others, shoot & run away - hit me if you can) - uh, you could blanket a solitary fort with a decent sized fleet. While you're doing that, the transports are sailing past, as far away from your guns as they can.

Just because the Union didn't make a practice of sailing laden TPs past cannon, doesn't mean they couldn't, if they felt they had to. If you're willing to risk the transports, it could be done, I wouldn't hesitate to say.

* I have not experienced 'clads being 'proof' against shore fire. Usually, the first units in the queue take the brunt of the hits.

* I have run past NO all the time in AACW & have done it once in CW2, so far. In the latter, I took enough hits to make me park & rest for at least a few Turns - so, it wasn't free.

In AACW, Jarkko put together Fleets O'Doom and sailed south from the Roads, absolutely leveling every Reb installation he sighted. Gamey? Eh, it's all gamey.

Remember, the boys in the fort have only so much time to Get You. They have to sight you, get ready, aim, fire, correct - and in the meantime, the vessels have tacked, taken other measures, etc. - and could well be past you in ten minutes.

I've been piloting vessels since I was eight years old - yes, hands on the wheel & everything, up to a sixty foot twin-screw diesel, which you do not just steer on the fly, there's a lot of momentum in such a craft (and sailed, also, from catboats up to some 25' yawls). I can 'see' the situation in my mind - it's not all one way for the landlubbers.

As far as the model goes, not so well informed, for this - I usually just strap 'em on & run past the forts & see what happens. All I'm saying is that Fleets Blasted Outta the Water is not the prima facie case some may think.
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Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:06 pm

Q-Ball wrote:AS Johnston was ill-served by nearly all his subordinates (though, he put them in those spots)

McCown did a lousy job at Island 10; he waited too long, then ended up trapped with his garrison. 5000 men gone.
Zollicoffer botched Mill Springs completely, setting up for battle with a swollen river in his rear. He paid with his life.
Floyd and Pillow's incompetence at Donelson is well documented. But Johnston was negligent in not having Tilghman improve the Ft. Henry defenses enough by fortifying the opposite bank. He sat on it for 4 months.
Finally, Polk's move on Columbus was a political failure. (Though, he probably felt the KY Legislature was about to throw in with the Union anyway, and he was probably right)
Hardee was the only subordinate that didn't screw up, but with only 15,000 men or so at Bowling Green, he had no choice but to withdraw in haste once Donelson fell

AS Johnston's decision to hit Grant's army before Buell could join him was probably correct; they did acheive surprise and nearly won, but Grant's determination carried the day

But the CSA early defense of Tennessee was nothing short of a poorly led disaster


Exactly, the further we get from Virginia, the more we see that the CSA was just a brand new creation, not a state, it didn't have its structures, its knowhow, its hierarchy, basically it didn't function. In Virginia where the war was started you had the newly formed capital, you were a stone throw away from Washington, and you had the infrastructure (railways, depots, some industry) to run the war. Close to the new political power, the army and overall war effort looked like one a state could muster. By no means fantastic, but it looked rational.

In the West and transmississippi, the CSA leadership and war effort was just shambolic until mid62 at least ! Missouri was Price and Van Dorn's personal folly in terms of campaigning and decision making, and AJ Johnston and all his subordinates had no real overall plan, had a no point carried a proper assesment of their ressources, how to use them at best, what should the strategic goals be, etc.... But most of all, the leadership of the CSA in Richmond hadn't either !

Campaigning in Virginia was "mentally" and strategically easy for the CSA, it alternated between "we need to save Richmond" and "we ned to take Washington / Union terrtory to make them give up". But in the west and transmississippi, there had been no real thought as to what the goals should / could be, what was realistic or not, etc...

I would go so far as to say that the conduct of war in those two theater by the CSA in the first year of the war are the most shambolic examples of poorly run military operations in the whole war, and I would even say that contrary to what many think, ie that the Civil war was a drown out long affair where the CSA lasted a lot longer than it should have, it should have been a lot harder on the union had the CSA had even the basis of a functioning apparatus in the west and transmississipi.

So to me, Union historical success in both those theaters should be almost impossible against a halfway competent CSA player, or even as you have all stated, the AI. Basically the only way one should able to emulate what happened, would be if one had all CSA forces locked in place throughout 61 in the west so that the Union player can at will surround and manouver without fear...

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Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:09 pm

if one had all CSA forces locked in place throughout 61 in the west so that the Union player can at will surround and manouver without fear...


There's a mod coming for that.
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veji1
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Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:22 pm

GraniteStater wrote:There's a mod coming for that.


I was only half joking mind you, really compare what the CSA did once it had a somewhat proper understanding of what it could and could'nt do in the west (ie really from Shiloh onwards) and the difference is staggering in terms of what they managed to achieve. By no means did the CSA at any point produce a magnificent campaign in any way, some good manouvers, some bad, actually many bad, but generally it looked like something. Whether army of the Tennessee under Bragg or even the poorly led forces in the Army of Mississippi, compared to the first year, it looks like mastery !

My point is really that to make the CSA perform as bad as historically in the West and the Transmississippi, one should make those areas virtually unplayable. for those (and I respect that) who want to have it more historical in those areas, there would have to be the same march 62 start indeed. in AACW, playing 95% of the time against the AI, I almost always used that start date as the confederacy, as it made the game more fun and balanced.

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Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:38 pm

:gardavou:

Yup. My favorite scenario. It's pretty fair - Union had Nashville & Donelson - that's it, really, besides the sea Islands and NoFlorida. Corps are up & running, you got all the toys - and far from imbalanced. My favorite start, both ways.
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Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:54 pm

Ol' Choctaw wrote:Butler didn't arrive until May. By that time the forts had given up. All Farragut had was a couple hundred Marines. New Orleans wouldn't surrender to him. He took the Marines into town, put up a flag and ran back to the boats. The city surrendered to Butler when he got there. In the meantime they were stripping equipment and whole factories and shipping them out of town.


Well we are talking about 6 days between April 25 and May 1. I'm correct in remembering that I can't use the "land sailors" option to take cities over a certain size? That means having transports with the fleet seems like a necessary thing. (Although my transports tend to get knocked up badly so I tend not to risk it.)

The real determining factor for forts was placement. If you had high bluffs allowing for plunging fire, then ironclads were quite venerable. I'm not quite sure how that could be modeled though. Hilly regions give a bonus against ships? That seems unsatisfactory....

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Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:05 pm

Porter's (?) running of Vicksburg was at night, but he lost surprise and was backlit. Few casualties - past bluffs and plunging fire.

But no hardened steel noses on the shells. No AP then, I think. Hitting a moving vessel, with gun crews whose training might not be all that could be desired (CSA), from black-powder discharges (big difference, big), at even as little as 800 yards, is not something you just do. Most Reb hits, in almost every instance in the war were really luck - some guided luck, yeah, they weren't stupid or incompetent, but visions of shattered Federal hulks are a tad askew.
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Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:19 pm

Round shot was not your best weapon against iron ships. Shells were better. They were not going to penetrate but they caused spalling to a greater degree than round shot. Rifled guns worked better also.

Judging lead at night would also be a tough trick. But it is not the best example.

All these runs were timed at night with no moon or cloudy weather and still lots could go wrong. It took a hell of a lot of luck to make those runs.

The battle of Saint Charles was one where the got a lucky hit and took out the whole ship with one shot and that was two ironclads against one gun crew.

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Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:22 am

GraniteStater wrote:Porter's 9/0 running of Vicksburg was at night, but he lost surprise and was backlit. Few casualties - past bluffs and plunging fire.

But no hardened steel noses on the shells. No AP then, I think. Hitting a moving vessel, with gun crews whose training might not be all that could be desired (CSA), from black-powder discharges (big difference, big), at even as little as 800 yards, is not something you just do. Most Reb hits, in almost every instance in the war were really luck - some guided luck, yeah, they weren't stupid or incompetent, but visions of shattered Federal huks are a tad askew.


A good point. Most of those somewhat lucky shots disabled Federal vessels by hitting boilers/and or steering controls, resulting in either withdrawl or surrender- not sinking.

While we're on the subjects of ironclads and forts, I'd like to point out that ironclads were not very effective at shore bombardment because they couldn't elevate their guns to an appropriate declination.
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Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:09 am

True. Good points, sirs.
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Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:43 pm

On the other hand, there are examples of forts beating up ironclads pretty well. Despite the rest of the fiasco of the battle, Ft. Donelson managed to maul Foote's fleet considerably. (Wounding the man in his foot appropriately enough). During the Peninsula campaign Drewery's Bluff penetrated the Galenia's hull several times and the Monitor simply couldn't elevate her guns. Finally, Du Pont had a whole fleet of ironclads that succeeded only in getting knocked about during the First Battle of Charleston Harbor (with the Keokuk sunk). Of course, all three are examples of a fleet more or less stopping to have it out with the forts, which probably was never a very good idea.

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Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:57 pm

Yes, good point. Running past a gauntlet and duking it out are different. My AACW experience did not lead me to Bombard very often unless I had a good situation to justify the Bombard button. First time I ever did it, I was chewed up but good.
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]

-Daniel Webster



[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]

-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898



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Matthew Penfold
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Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:11 pm

GraniteStater wrote:Yes, good point. Running past a gauntlet and duking it out are different. My AACW experience did not lead me to Bombard very often unless I had a good situation to justify the Bombard button. First time I ever did it, I was chewed up but good.


There are also considerable differences in the ability of ships to maneuver when on a river, a harbour or other constricted area of coast, and open sea.

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