Some of the Civil War figures that have made it into the game as commanders go against historical simulation. I've got a laundry list, but one of the most irksome is William Quantrill.
I think his official rank as part of the partisan rangers was captain, and he didn't claim anything more lofty than colonel himself. I've read that he never commanded more than 400-500 men. Yet because of the current limits of the game engine, he can command a division of thousands. There is no inclusion in the game of one of his major opponents from the Union side, Thomas Ewing. Ewing commanded more men (at least the brigade level), and officially held the rank of general from early 1863 until the end of the war. Not that the Union needs more generals, but Ewing had as much impact as Quantrill and other generals represented in the game.
I would like to see Quantrill removed from the game as a commander. Replace him instead with a raider, partisan or cavalry unit flavored with his name as the commander, and one or more of the properties he has as a commander; no command points needed. I would like to see this done with other "generals" as well, such as John Mosby. I play as the CSA most often and even though these commanders are extremely useful in the game, I'd like to see them gone.
If you wanted to get really fancy, you could make all the partisan ranger units on the map, save Mosby's and McNeill's, become part of a neutral yet hostile-to-Union faction in late Feb '64 when the Partisan Ranger Act was repealed. ;D
If the game is going to include men who could have more likely moved up in responsibility from the brigade to division level and beyond, then commanders like William Barksdale (*sorely* absent) should be there. Instead, the Confederates are plagued with commanders like Floyd and McCown. If those weak sisters are represented, where is Gideon Pillow? Where are the other run-of-the-mill Confederates like Sam Maxey?
I must agree with grimjaw : As CSA player it is very convenient to put Quantrill in command of a division but this doesn't seems very historical : I don't know very much about Quantrill but it seems he deserted General Price's army after Wilson's Creek to build his "own" army. Better historians will correct me.
ohms, I don't have a problem with the weak generals. If anything, I'd like more of them. Also, I think several of the current crop have some kind of higher chance for death in combat (Zollicoffer, Polk, etc), I wouldn't have a problem if the new generals had the same characteristic to match their actual fate.
I know that since the Confederates had fewer troops they should have correspondingly fewer generals. However, I think the biggest balancing mechanism is already present and the number of generals won't affect it: the fact that the Confederacy will be outproduced in men and material by the Union. It wouldn't matter if I could make, administratively, nine Confederate armies with two or three corps each and two or three divisions per corps. The rebels can't produce enough to fill out the framework. So even with more generals for the Confederacy, while still less than the Union, the Confederacy would be hampered. If additional generals were created they'd probably be stuck commanding weak divisions or brigades, and I think that's more accurate.
There's also nothing to say the additional Confederate generals couldn't haven't stats like Floyd and McCown (currently 3-0-0 for both).
I know that since the Confederates had fewer troops they should have correspondingly fewer generals. However, I think the biggest balancing mechanism is already present and the number of generals won't affect it: the fact that the Confederacy will be outproduced in men and material by the Union. It wouldn't matter if I could make, administratively, nine Confederate armies with two or three corps each and two or three divisions per corps. The rebels can't produce enough to fill out the framework. So even with more generals for the Confederacy, while still less than the Union, the Confederacy would be hampered. If additional generals were created they'd probably be stuck commanding weak divisions or brigades, and I think that's more accurate.
There's also nothing to say the additional Confederate generals couldn't haven't stats like Floyd and McCown (currently 3-0-0 for both).
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OneArmedMexican
- General
- Posts: 582
- Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:14 pm
Quantrill is basically a flavour unit - like Mosby and a few others that never rose to command a full division.
But I agree, Quantrill commanding a huge military unit when he never was more than a partisan/common criminal (depending on the point of view) feels wrong. However there is a simpler solution for this issue. You don't need to remove him from the game, one could just mod him not to be able to create a division. I am pretty sure in older AGEOD games there was a line in the unit leader file that enable/disenabled divisional command (I haven't had the time to check the game files for details but very little seems to have changed). And even if this is not possible, one could still change him from a leader unit into a normal unit. This would solve the issue while still keeping the flavour and Quantrill's special skills could still be useful to the stack he is a part of.
But I agree, Quantrill commanding a huge military unit when he never was more than a partisan/common criminal (depending on the point of view) feels wrong. However there is a simpler solution for this issue. You don't need to remove him from the game, one could just mod him not to be able to create a division. I am pretty sure in older AGEOD games there was a line in the unit leader file that enable/disenabled divisional command (I haven't had the time to check the game files for details but very little seems to have changed). And even if this is not possible, one could still change him from a leader unit into a normal unit. This would solve the issue while still keeping the flavour and Quantrill's special skills could still be useful to the stack he is a part of.
OneArmedMexican wrote:You don't need to remove him from the game, one could just mod him not to be able to create a division. I am pretty sure in older AGEOD games there was a line in the unit leader file that enable/disenabled divisional command
You are right, this should be possible because Belle Boyd can't be assigned to command a division.
To do this, go to the models db and set LandLeader to NULL for Quantrill. I think that will do it, he'll still provide the same number of command points, etc.
If you don't want to deal with the DBs, open Models.Cached file in a text editor and find the line for Quantrill. Change the line:
388&0&William C. Quantrill&$ldr_txt_CSA_Quantrill&0&symbol_general_1.png&Unit_CSA_WCQuantrill.png&W. Quantrill&230&219&174&255&CSA&NULL&NULL&1&1&10&1&1&4&10&2&0&1&30&1&1&0&0&0&0&0&0&80&50&50&0&0&0&0&-1&0&-1&100&11&11&0&0&100&0&0&3&1&0&10&0&-1&-1&5&0&1&5&0&1&49&20&0&1&10000&1&0&0&5&1&1&General&0&1&1&0&0&0&0&0&0&1&0&0&0&0&0&0&NULL&4|38|92|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|&0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|&NULL&NULL&100&-1&0&0&0&0&0&0&0&-1&0001\01\01&NULL&4&NULL&-1&-1&-1&-1&-1&-1&100&100&
To:
388&0&William C. Quantrill&$ldr_txt_CSA_Quantrill&0&symbol_general_1.png&Unit_CSA_WCQuantrill.png&W. Quantrill&230&219&174&255&CSA&NULL&NULL&1&1&10&1&1&4&10&2&0&1&30&1&1&0&0&0&0&0&0&80&50&50&0&0&0&0&-1&0&-1&100&11&11&0&0&100&0&0&3&1&0&10&0&-1&-1&5&0&1&5&0&1&49&20&0&1&10000&0&0&0&5&1&1&General&0&1&1&0&0&0&0&0&0&1&0&0&0&0&0&0&NULL&4|38|92|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|&0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|&NULL&NULL&100&-1&0&0&0&0&0&0&0&-1&0001\01\01&NULL&4&NULL&-1&-1&-1&-1&-1&-1&100&100&
In particular the string:
10000&1&0&0&5&1&1&General
10000 means ?
first 1 means LandLeader
first 0 means NavalLeader
5&1&1 are the leaders statistics (strategic&offensive&defensive)
So just change the first 1 to a 0. Same thing can be done for Mosby. I don't know how the AI would react to these changes. Do backup the file before making changes.
If you don't want to deal with the DBs, open Models.Cached file in a text editor and find the line for Quantrill. Change the line:
388&0&William C. Quantrill&$ldr_txt_CSA_Quantrill&0&symbol_general_1.png&Unit_CSA_WCQuantrill.png&W. Quantrill&230&219&174&255&CSA&NULL&NULL&1&1&10&1&1&4&10&2&0&1&30&1&1&0&0&0&0&0&0&80&50&50&0&0&0&0&-1&0&-1&100&11&11&0&0&100&0&0&3&1&0&10&0&-1&-1&5&0&1&5&0&1&49&20&0&1&10000&1&0&0&5&1&1&General&0&1&1&0&0&0&0&0&0&1&0&0&0&0&0&0&NULL&4|38|92|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|&0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|&NULL&NULL&100&-1&0&0&0&0&0&0&0&-1&0001\01\01&NULL&4&NULL&-1&-1&-1&-1&-1&-1&100&100&
To:
388&0&William C. Quantrill&$ldr_txt_CSA_Quantrill&0&symbol_general_1.png&Unit_CSA_WCQuantrill.png&W. Quantrill&230&219&174&255&CSA&NULL&NULL&1&1&10&1&1&4&10&2&0&1&30&1&1&0&0&0&0&0&0&80&50&50&0&0&0&0&-1&0&-1&100&11&11&0&0&100&0&0&3&1&0&10&0&-1&-1&5&0&1&5&0&1&49&20&0&1&10000&0&0&0&5&1&1&General&0&1&1&0&0&0&0&0&0&1&0&0&0&0&0&0&NULL&4|38|92|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|&0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|&NULL&NULL&100&-1&0&0&0&0&0&0&0&-1&0001\01\01&NULL&4&NULL&-1&-1&-1&-1&-1&-1&100&100&
In particular the string:
10000&1&0&0&5&1&1&General
10000 means ?
first 1 means LandLeader
first 0 means NavalLeader
5&1&1 are the leaders statistics (strategic&offensive&defensive)
So just change the first 1 to a 0. Same thing can be done for Mosby. I don't know how the AI would react to these changes. Do backup the file before making changes.
OneArmed, I go with the "common criminal" view. Off with his head! 
It's easy for me to use him in a more historical sense, but Athena doesn't care. She'd trot out Major General Quantrill, commanding the left wing of the Army of the West.
I like your suggestion of changing him into a non-leader. He'd never have been given the responsibility of commanding regulars, much less brigades of regulars.
tripax, any way to remove his command points as well?
It's easy for me to use him in a more historical sense, but Athena doesn't care. She'd trot out Major General Quantrill, commanding the left wing of the Army of the West.
I like your suggestion of changing him into a non-leader. He'd never have been given the responsibility of commanding regulars, much less brigades of regulars.
tripax, any way to remove his command points as well?
Without command points, what is left?
If you really wanted to, you have at least a couple choices. You can give him an ability which hurts his command skill or you can try to figure out which variable controls that aspect of leadership. Either way, it is easiest to do this by editing the DB and recreating the models files that way.
There has been discussion of a leader overhaul, if/when that happens, you/we should remember to bring this up, by the way.
If you really wanted to, you have at least a couple choices. You can give him an ability which hurts his command skill or you can try to figure out which variable controls that aspect of leadership. Either way, it is easiest to do this by editing the DB and recreating the models files that way.
There has been discussion of a leader overhaul, if/when that happens, you/we should remember to bring this up, by the way.
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Captain_Orso
- Posts: 5766
- Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:02 pm
- Location: Stuttgart, Germany
Tripax, have you actually done it this way? Will this allow Quantrill to lead troops--give them his CP's and modify them in combat with his strategic/offensive/defensive values--but not allow him to create a division command?
I'm asking, because if you compare Quantrill's model to Bell Boyd's model, the one thing that stands out as a major difference is that Quantrill has 'LandLeader = 1' and Bell Boyd has no leadership parameters at all--meaning land or naval, not the strategic/offensive/defensive values.
I kind of suspect that without the "LandLeader = 1" parameter Quantrill will not affect any units in the stack with him at all. I'm not sure, but I can't really think of any other reason for the parameter.
BTW, you masochist
, if you modify the model itself and delete the Models.cache file, when you start the game again, it will automatically create a new Models.cache file using the current model files 
Watching somebody modify the .cache files is like watching them poke their own finger into their eye-ball 
I'm asking, because if you compare Quantrill's model to Bell Boyd's model, the one thing that stands out as a major difference is that Quantrill has 'LandLeader = 1' and Bell Boyd has no leadership parameters at all--meaning land or naval, not the strategic/offensive/defensive values.
I kind of suspect that without the "LandLeader = 1" parameter Quantrill will not affect any units in the stack with him at all. I'm not sure, but I can't really think of any other reason for the parameter.
BTW, you masochist
, if you modify the model itself and delete the Models.cache file, when you start the game again, it will automatically create a new Models.cache file using the current model files Watching somebody modify the .cache files is like watching them poke their own finger into their eye-ball 
No, you caught me, I haven't tried it. I think I've accidentally used Pinkerton in this way. Certainly Pinkerton can't command a division. And certainly Pinkerton's abilities work.
I'm not sure if his abilities will apply to a stack when the ability applies when element to be the leader of a stack when Quantrill isn't a LandLeader any more.
If you leave the Quantrill's family as leader, though, then he can be combined with his partisans. Once combined, Quantrill's abilities should be applied to his partisans (but not to other elements in his stack unless the ability applies to the stack, I think).
So basically, what I've given is a suggestion for people to try (I'm laying off this stuff in my mod until someone does a leader overhaul). Who knows if it works?
Also, I suggested editing the .cached file because if it breaks anything, it is easy to recover (assuming many people don't want to learn how to edit the DB file) even if you don't back up.
I'm not sure if his abilities will apply to a stack when the ability applies when element to be the leader of a stack when Quantrill isn't a LandLeader any more.
If you leave the Quantrill's family as leader, though, then he can be combined with his partisans. Once combined, Quantrill's abilities should be applied to his partisans (but not to other elements in his stack unless the ability applies to the stack, I think).
So basically, what I've given is a suggestion for people to try (I'm laying off this stuff in my mod until someone does a leader overhaul). Who knows if it works?
Also, I suggested editing the .cached file because if it breaks anything, it is easy to recover (assuming many people don't want to learn how to edit the DB file) even if you don't back up.
This is Quantrill after editing his .mdl file to match Pinkerton very closely. The raider ability is superfluous since he can't lead a stack, and I'd probably get rid of deep raider as well and leave him with the irregular ability. I like him this way and will probably keep it.
It's silly that he shows a Captain (General), though.
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It's silly that he shows a Captain (General), though.
[ATTACH]31733[/ATTACH]
Why even have him in the game then, at that point?
I mean... what's his purpose? Other than that his name is mentioned, basically.
Edit: actually, now that I really think about it, he probably ought to "just" be the raider/light cavalry unit. That provides the color of having his name in the game, and avoids all of the issues of having him as a "general" in the game. There's got to be someone else to take his general's slot.
I mean... what's his purpose? Other than that his name is mentioned, basically.
Edit: actually, now that I really think about it, he probably ought to "just" be the raider/light cavalry unit. That provides the color of having his name in the game, and avoids all of the issues of having him as a "general" in the game. There's got to be someone else to take his general's slot.
I agree with you, ohms_law. I'd rather flavor the bushwhacker unit with one or more of his abilities and his name and call it good. One could say his counterpart on the Union side was Charles Jennison, but he makes no appearance (maybe as a flavor, but I haven't looked up til now).
I can't remember off the top of my head and I'm looking through the files. Are the 7th and 15th regiment Kansas volunteer cavalry regiments represented in the game? As much trouble as they got into under various leaders, they should be raider units. The area ought to be on fire and pillaged regularly anyway, since it was once described thus: "the Kansas-Missouri border was a disgrace even to barbarism."
I'm working on Mexican bandidos raiding in California, flavored with Tiburcio Vásquez or Procopio. Notorious figures in their time, but no reason to create them as generals.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiburcio_V%C3%A1squez
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procopio
I can't remember off the top of my head and I'm looking through the files. Are the 7th and 15th regiment Kansas volunteer cavalry regiments represented in the game? As much trouble as they got into under various leaders, they should be raider units. The area ought to be on fire and pillaged regularly anyway, since it was once described thus: "the Kansas-Missouri border was a disgrace even to barbarism."
I'm working on Mexican bandidos raiding in California, flavored with Tiburcio Vásquez or Procopio. Notorious figures in their time, but no reason to create them as generals.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiburcio_V%C3%A1squez
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procopio
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