Manufacturing Italy (a PoN GC)

[loki100]

as usual, I'll do full feedback with the next update, but

loki100,

do you have the impression that the AI nations at war are moving against their objectives (which shall be their rival objective regions while protecting their own)? What is happening exactly in the German-French border?

I think this is dominating the AI's interest to be honest. Its clear that Austria has a fixation with retaking Trieste but it is also being opportunistic - its still trying to take Tirana but it has a definite focus. Its interesting the Prussians clearly took a lot of losses to get to Strasbourg (the last 1913 update) but since seems to have sat on what is clearly a German objective.

I think the French fought hard to defend Strasbourg, then spent 4-5 months simply screening the Germans and since then have been trying to retake other cities in the area. So in this case, its less clear that they are obsessed with particular objectives and more they are applying pressure where the Germans are weak. They've taken Mainz and besieging the other two northern Rhine provinces. In general, as we will see, the French AI applies a subtlety of operational range that the Austrian AI seems to miss out on.

So that, from a systems point of view is interesting. There are times when I think the AI is focussed on objective provinces and others were it takes a very creative approach to solving its problems. Its clear that taking Innsbruck for eg, will provoke a response, but when I take Laibach, the AI is less keen to evict me - it will attack, but its less the feeling that retaking that province is so important.

All in all, the land AI as ever, works well. Its still an AI, a human opponent would I suspect target the Italian army over any geographical locations but in general it gives a good opponent and as I've just demonstrated, can hand you quite a beating.

[Dewirix]

While things do look bad right now, there are still some causes for optimism. Firstly, you've slaughtered the Austrians - I count 398 lost elements on this page alone - and their combat power has dropped from 156 at the start of the war to just 75 today.

Secondly, the Battle of Zagreb did a fair bit of damage to the Germans, inflicting twice the losses to a force twice the size.

If the Austrians keep battering away at Trieste you can probably sit tight until you can make good your losses. If you can work out where the Germans are and either neutralise or avoid them you should be able to retake the offensive in the longer term.

[Kensai]

Just a warning regarding on what Dewirix says.

While things do look bad right now, there are still some causes for optimism. Firstly, you've slaughtered the Austrians - I count 398 lost elements on this page alone - and their combat power has dropped from 156 at the start of the war to just 75 today.

Counterintuitively, sometimes losing elements is better than having them alive but extremely weak (low cohesion, low hit points). Lost elements give their NM/WS loss, which can be important for choices (both player's and AI's), but it also means you don't have to dilute your reinforcements anymore. The next batch of F3 reinforcements will go to the rest of your armies (as long as entire units were lost). This can be critical if you fight in two or more fronts and you desperately want the reinforcements to go in the one front you are taking the beating.

Sometimes I wish there was a button to stop reinforcing (as in HOI3), although I believe it would have been quite gamey. In real life, reinforcements happen all over the place as Generals rarely if ever decide for the "complete sacrifice" of an entire army, in order to save another. After all, you can semi-influence this by putting an army in passive (to prioritize) and on a depot (if you play with element rebuilding only on depots, something I openly suggest everyone to do).

All in all, the Austrian Army has just consolidated (it lost what it had to lose) and the Italian elements may actually break in the next confrontation (as they might be in the verge of abandoning due to low cohesion).

Always keep this in mind, especially when in PBEM.

[Matnjord]

All in all, the Austrian Army has just consolidated (it lost what it had to lose) and the Italian elements may actually break in the next confrontation (as they might be in the verge of abandoning due to low cohesion).

Always keep this in mind, especially when in PBEM.

But, if Loki is right Austria is short on manufactured good, they won't be able to replace those elements, not in this war at least. Italy can rebuild lost armies, Austria can't. You might be right that short term the Austrian army is more solid, more cohesive. They still won't be able to break the line of forts along the border. Long term they seem (to me at least) to be losing this industrial war.

[Kensai]

I wouldn't know (only guesstimate) the strategic resources of a rival nation (especially AI, which is known to be hoarding) unless loading the Austrian-Hungarian turn. I hope he doesn't do that cause it might even betray the next moves of the Austrians as well as the positions of their rivals.

I'm not worried that Italy can stand its ground in this one, though. But much will depend on what the German AI manages to achieve. Two against one (if France decides for passivity) will be tough.

[loki100]

First a confession, I broke off the last update with the critical event of the Austro-German offensive unreported. Not least, at the time, I was utterly unsure how to regain my balance as I kept on being forced back and unable to hold a province.

So what happened at the end of this turn first had me in complete panic when it appeared that the Germans would force me out of Udine and then in disbelief as I watched the battle progress ...

What naval activity has occurred in your war other then keeping the supply lines to Trieste open?
How has the blockade of German / Austrian Ports been doing - You thought that it would not have an effect because they could by materials from other neutrals. Have you found this to be true?
Have you considered coastal bombardment of convenient hostile forces? Part of your job is to just inflict casualties on units to draw replacements from the Austrian (and German) replacement pools.

Given the opportunistic nature of WWI - and the drubbing(s)(?) of Austria - Should you consider an scripting an Ottoman Empire \ Romanian \ etc. declaration of War against them?
Have you considered building corps as a second echelon / reserve - standing behind the line to swap out corps that either have a significant damaged elements or lost elements?
Even a few of these given the command penalties may prove useful.

I'm not sure where the Austrian navy got to. I know they have one (I built it by script) and it was in the Adriatic for some time but I've not encountered it during the war so far. The only naval action I've seen was clearing out a German fleet from the Med trade area. But I have seen a lot of naval movement – both French and German in the North Sea. Also, in 1915, we'll see a rather impressive French use of their fleet.

I'm not risking coastal bombardment as that is an easy way to lose your fleet. This is accurate enough for sail ships but even with modern Dreadnoughts, I'd be vulnerable to convetional land artillery.

I think if the Ottomans have an interest it would be in taking revenge on Italy. I'm assuming they arre recovering from their drubbing by the Bulgarians but if the war goes against me I might add them in (on the Austro-German side).

I've not bothered with the secondary nations – in part as the diplomatic AI will tend to make peace quite quickly if it sees nothing to gain, and neither Rumania nor Austria have cores on each other.

I think, and I'll pick this up below, that the Austrian economy is in a bad way. I've occupied a lot of key sites for long periods and there is very little coal, manufactures or steel for trade. So their army is a mix of the reserve corps they get on mobilisation and militia, which indicates a resource shortage and in turn a replacement problem.

At the start I did have a lot of reserve corps mainly as I was struggling for command points. After two years of war, I have a lot of CP among my generals and am raising new formations to need (I too need to keep an eye on manufactures and my replacement pool is my priority).

Yup, I sort of saw this coming, but I was still desperately hoping you could save those armies The entire campaign was very risky.

I think my 1914 offensive would have been much more cautious: basically place your armies in Udine, Laibach, and Fiume and surround the Austrian army sieging Trieste. Then beat back any attempts by the Austrians or Germans to break through.

Regardless, I guess you sort of need a more active strategy (but not as risky as charging at Vienna) because you need to take the pressure of your allies. Hopefully the second half of the year sees France making their own offensive, to relieve Italy's exhausted troops.

Aye, it was too bold, not least its so hard with higher unit cohesion and such high defense values (plus advanced economies) to land a single killing blow. But it has taken the pressure off the French and in the final months of 1914 they do start to repay the favour.

If I am to achieve my goals (near fatal wounding of the Germanic powers) I need to keep France in, so I am still operating for the good of the alliance rather than my immediate needs

Hard to see what you could have done differently - the need to push hard and fast implied heavy casualties and an exposure to counter-attack. As for the German army 'hiding' in Wien, they were probably railed in only a short time before going into action. The Germans pulled that trick a fair bit in WW1 and the Austrians would have enthusiastically co-operated - indeed it bears a strong resemblance to von Mackensen's deployment in Galicia in WW1 and the 'loan' of German troops to the Caporetto campaign.

One thing that these strategy games do a bad job of modeling is the friction and inefficiency inherent in running a multi-ethnic army. The Austrians should be crumbling pretty badly by now but it seems there is still a lot of elephant left. If you can't beat the Austrian and German masses with your advantages in tech, artillery, tanks and other weapons, then I just don't know what to advise you to do.

France may not be incurring many casualties but she has done a lot better than historically, and a great deal better than the alternative, which is a half-hearted defense of southern France. I realize this is a bad time to look for a bright side, but I think the French have shown they would attack if they saw an opening and are smart enough not to waste men if they don't.

If you have been pushed down the funnel, your only option is to try to hold the smaller frontage and bleed out the attackers while you try to make good your losses. Germany... is a beast, and without Russia you just may not be able to win.

With large rail pools (I can move 2 big armies, say 8000 pwr per turn), it is indeed possible to shift large forces quickly and I suspect that German army arrived after I'd given my orders (that makes me sound less incompetent).

I'm still the only power with tanks and they do make a difference, in particular they badly disrupt the enemy cohesion and by this stage in the game that is a huge advantage – as we will see in the next post.

As to the German command, the next battle may indicate they have been hanging around the Austrians for too long for their own good.

Brutal. I hope you will get the time to rebuild your armies - perhaps the Germans will join in the fun at Trieste? Of course, given their efficiency (and enormous single-army forces), they would probably walk right into that bastion of Italian pride.

Tense stuff and the risk of defeat seems very real. On the bright side, while you lunged at Wien to take the pressure off France (and got whooped mercilessly for your efforts), it now appears that the French are quite stable on the Rhine, so perhaps you can go over on the defensive and hope that the Germans railroad their killer stacks back to the Ruhr area (at which point you can creep out of your hidey-hole, all refreshed, and draw the Hun back to the Balkans). That's my hope, at least. If the Germans keep up the pressure, you could be in for a lot of pain.

Speaking of which: how are those fortifications in Italy proper coming along?

The border forts are robust, even with Trieste under siege I can move in fresh forces by sea. In Italy I have nothing apart from Rome and Turin (this goes back to the debates with Powloon in the pre-1859 phase), so if they win in the north I am going to be in a lot of trouble.

While things do look bad right now, there are still some causes for optimism. Firstly, you've slaughtered the Austrians - I count 398 lost elements on this page alone - and their combat power has dropped from 156 at the start of the war to just 75 today.

Secondly, the Battle of Zagreb did a fair bit of damage to the Germans, inflicting twice the losses to a force twice the size.

If the Austrians keep battering away at Trieste you can probably sit tight until you can make good your losses. If you can work out where the Germans are and either neutralise or avoid them you should be able to retake the offensive in the longer term.

Its interesting seeing how warfare alters over the game. Its not just the same but with better troops.

By 1870, its still recognisably Napoleonic – ok battles are bloody but a campaign is about destroying the starting army and going for key targets. Also movement costs cohesion so if you can defend a key province, that alone gave an advantage.

This is industrial. You fight to kill and hope the enemy takes more losses than you and that they run out reserves before you. Location is secondary. So by that reckoning, 1914 has been a stunning success.

Just a warning regarding on what Dewirix says.

Counterintuitively, sometimes losing elements is better than having them alive but extremely weak (low cohesion, low hit points). Lost elements give their NM/WS loss, which can be important for choices (both player's and AI's), but it also means you don't have to dilute your reinforcements anymore. The next batch of F3 reinforcements will go to the rest of your armies (as long as entire units were lost). This can be critical if you fight in two or more fronts and you desperately want the reinforcements to go in the one front you are taking the beating.

Sometimes I wish there was a button to stop reinforcing (as in HOI3), although I believe it would have been quite gamey. In real life, reinforcements happen all over the place as Generals rarely if ever decide for the "complete sacrifice" of an entire army, in order to save another. After all, you can semi-influence this by putting an army in passive (to prioritize) and on a depot (if you play with element rebuilding only on depots, something I openly suggest everyone to do).

All in all, the Austrian Army has just consolidated (it lost what it had to lose) and the Italian elements may actually break in the next confrontation (as they might be in the verge of abandoning due to low cohesion).

Always keep this in mind, especially when in PBEM.

In this case I think Dewirix is right. They have a huge manpower pool that gives them a large army on mobilisation and lots of replacement chits. Its noticeable their army is reserves + militia, I've seen very few Austrian guards and not much cavalry either.

Also late game, you have so many cohesion boosting techs (plus even more that cut the cost of movement) that cohesion, normally, is no longer an issue.

Add on, cash is too easy, so the only choke point in the loss-replace cycle is manufactures. And there I have an advantage. I can send my broken corps to the rear (the ones that have just the HQ, maybe some guns left) and in 6-10 turns they have repaired.

But, if Loki is right Austria is short on manufactured good, they won't be able to replace those elements, not in this war at least. Italy can rebuild lost armies, Austria can't. You might be right that short term the Austrian army is more solid, more cohesive. They still won't be able to break the line of forts along the border. Long term they seem (to me at least) to be losing this industrial war.

My feeling is there obsession with Trieste will end up costing them the war. Easily 40% of their total losses have been there, so all I need to do is to raise and feed in (by sea) fresh fortress units and guns and they in turn eliminate more expensive Austrian units.

This war is about attrition and waiting to see who has a disaster they can't recover from first.

I wouldn't know (only guesstimate) the strategic resources of a rival nation (especially AI, which is known to be hoarding) unless loading the Austrian-Hungarian turn. I hope he doesn't do that cause it might even betray the next moves of the Austrians as well as the positions of their rivals.

I'm not worried that Italy can stand its ground in this one, though. But much will depend on what the German AI manages to achieve. Two against one (if France decides for passivity) will be tough.

Well the French are holding the great bulk of the German army. I reckon there is around 15,000-18,000 power of Germans on the Italian front but there must be around 30,000 on the Rhine. The French AI isn't fighting much, but it is doing a good job at pinning the Germans down and for the moment that is all I need.

I don't know the state of the Austrian economy, but I'm guessing from the type of army they are fielding that they have serious problems.

[loki100]

(slight shift of tone here, but indulge me, it is for a reason)


By 16 August, the Italian command had decided to halt the retreat outside Udine rather than fall back over the Isonzo. Some had argued for a further retreat to give the battered armies chance to rest and build up with their defenses protected by the river line.

On the other hand this meant severing all land communications with Trieste and, if the Isonzo gave protection for an Italian defense, it would also provide an advantage for the Austro-German armies.

The defeats at Vienna and subsequent retreat meant that two armies had been completely lost, replacements were forming up but would not be ready till October. It fell to the veterans of First, Third and Fifth armies to defend Italy.

Exhausted but determined, the Italian army set about digging trenches and setting up prepared positions. Every small town was converted to a strong point and the 2,000 artillery pieces were dug in, and carefully registered their fire ranges.

On the 16th, came news that the fortress of Trieste had withstood yet another Austrian attack. Reports indicated the Austrians had lost another 180,000 but over half the garrison had fallen and the many wounded were evacuated across the Adriatic to the already full hospitals at Venice.



Given evidence that an Austrian army of around 450,000 was now unlikely to advance, it seems as if preparations lost some urgency. The main German army were believed to be still at Zagreb and 300,000 of their troops had just stormed Buda.



On the 27th, everything changed. Scout planes reported a German army, estimated to be around 500,000 men crossing the border.

Masi did what he could in the time available. A cavalry screen was thrown out to delay the enemy while the rest of the army hastily completed their defense lines.

Early engagements indicated the two armies were of equal size but the Italians had the advantage of their trenches and being on the defensive. In what was to prove the decisive battle of the war, some 900,000 men faced each other.


(Italian supplies and reinforcements being raced to the front)


(A moment of rest on the 28th)

Given that they had just moved up from Croatia, the failure of the Austrians at Trieste and their lack of time to test out the Italian defenses, it was assumed the Germans would take up a defensive position. As it was, early on the 29th they attacked.

The initial blow caught the Italians by surprise and fell heavily on the cavalry and light infantry thrown out as a skirmish line [1].

To gain some time, a major counterattack was launched, led by the Italian tanks.


(Italian tanks in action)

This failed, but disrupted the German attack. As the day went on, their attacks became more piecemeal as they failed to clear the fortified villages and became trapped in the Italian lines. Equally, they took heavy losses from the Italian artillery.

Late in the day, the command decided to commit the relatively fresh 1st Army to a counterattack.

Exhausted, the Germans faltered and then panicked. Their retreat quickly became a rout and in turn a slaughter as Italian gunners laid down accurate fire on pre-registered targets. Realising there was no escape, some 270,000 Germans surrendered. The rest of their army lay dead as did almost 60,000 Italians.


[2]

In one day, the threat to Italy was lifted. However, it was clear the army was in no state to exploit its success. The next days saw the grim business of burying the dead and sending the wounded back to the overflowing hospitals of Milan and Venice.



Losses




[1] – watching the battle indicator, rounds 1-3 were very equal in terms of losses.
[2] – I have no idea why it ended so badly for the Germans, they were not in all out attack mode so my guess is they were low on cohesion.

[Matnjord]

In all my years of AGEOD playing and Aar reading I don't think I have ever seen anything quite like... I'm not sure even Bornego's RUS Aar ever came close to that.



Never mind what's written in this one, but I guess the Germans must have nightmarish visions like this right now
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[Matnjord]

Damn, just mentioning Bornego's name made me start rereading his Drang RUS AAr.

He said this back then:

PON could indeed yield similar results. Yet I doubt it would be as much fun. The map is too small to grant much room for maneuver. Moreover PON lacks the division-corps-army structure and marching to the sound of guns. Building a continues frontline just doesn't work well under these circumstances.

Now that you've played PON for quite a bit, what would you answer to that?

[Stuyvesant]

Well... Wow. Willikers. And other zany words starting with 'W'. That really did a number on the Prussians. From the latest power ratings, it looks like the Austrians are in serious trouble (not too big a surprise, given their past performance and insistence on turning Trieste into the world's largest Austrian city - counted by the number of people buried there), but I wasn't expecting the drop in Prussian Power[sup]TM[/sup]. I gather this might be a rather ephemeral blip, but I hope it signals the beginning of major trouble for the hated Hun. If nothing else, maybe the Germans will stall, not knowing whether to pick the western or the Italian front, and you can continue to pick tasty morsels of the twitching Austrian corpse.

[Dewirix]

To paraphrase Churchill, Leopold von Bayern has become the only man who could lose the war in an fortnight. Prussian combat power has dropped by 26 points between updates, and Austria's has also fallen by 11. I imagine you must be very frustrated at the fact you simply don't have the capacity to capitalise on their weakness right now.

On the other hand, I take it that the 300,000 Germans who retook Buda are still floating round too. Probably best to be cautious for a bit longer.

From a narrative point of view, I can really see why you stopped the last update where you did. The destruction of your armies outside Wein helped to build tension, which has now largely been dissipated by yet another Austrian failure at the gates of Trieste and the miraculous annihilation of the Germans at Udine.

[loki100]

Damn, just mentioning Bornego's name made me start rereading his Drang RUS AAr.

He said this back then:

Now that you've played PON for quite a bit, what would you answer to that?

Since I am waiting to speak to someone ... here's a response (I'll do the usual later) since I think this deserves a bit of thought

I think he was basically wrong in that I think both systems are a good fit. Its one of the great things about AGEOD is that while they use the same core system it is varied to give a realistic game in each time frame. So AJE et al use their rules to present a style of warfare where it is manouvre between large armies that matters - spread out at your peril. WiA captures the flavour of small armies in a vast area (with poor communications) in much the same way.

I've only played RuS properly once as a PBEM (& a lot of test games vs AI) but I found it the most complex of their games - although I am now struggling to come to terms with WW1G. In particular, army building is key and took more time than I had available - I'm sure it gets more intuitive as you play more, much like the economic side of PoN. Its a great fit to the period and the mapscale allows both the trench warfare around key locations and the sweeping raids and offensives that were part of the Civil War. Now to get Athena to do a decent job at that must take a lot of coding ... and processing time. As we all know, the last thing PoN needs is to be slowed down.

I think that PoN has an equally valid but different solution. In part war is set within the wider context, it should be relatively rare and its not going to be decisive. So the combat portion of the game needs to be scaled to the rest. Second the fewer provinces help with the AI and I guess with game processing. The lack of provinces also helps in building a front line, you don't need to fill up many provinces and that helps offset the lack of detail in army organisation - I can never bother to work out who is my CinC ... something utterly critical in RoP and RuS.

Actually, the flaw lies in something that Bornego suggested wouldn't happen. There is too much scope for movement, especially late game. It made sense that a war in the 1860-90 time frame saw the grouping into a large army (multiple formations for human, single for AI) with these looking for advantage and trying to catch the other out. I'd rather see this period as more spread out and continuous fronts, which isn't really happening. In part this is a product of the AI, it builds monster stacks, you need to group your armies to face it down, so you still have a late nineteenth century (or 1914) war of movement punctuated by incredibly bloody battles. You don't get a 1915 stalemate - though the French front sort of has that with the two big armies just facing each other, both unwilling to risk direct combat. But even so, we are sorting getting to the right answer - a fixed front with heavy losses - by the wrong route - there is too much movement. Equally, as is to come, we'll see what happens when your industrial capacity to sustain a war falls apart.

So on balance, I'd argue that PoN's combat system is a good fit. Its easier on the AI, it acknowledges that war is secondary and the lack of provinces works well with the tendency to build up single large armies, I think this roughly trades off building a front (as you can do in DNO) against movement - as there are less provinces to move in.

I'm less sure this trade off works for the battle scenarios. Some are good as they cover wars usually ignored - Franco-Prussian, Russo-Japanese - but I'm not sure that any really provide compelling game play. The trade offs that work in the context of grand campaign rather irritate in that smaller setting.

[Kensai]

In this case I think Dewirix is right. They have a huge manpower pool that gives them a large army on mobilisation and lots of replacement chits. Its noticeable their army is reserves + militia, I've seen very few Austrian guards and not much cavalry either.

Also late game, you have so many cohesion boosting techs (plus even more that cut the cost of movement) that cohesion, normally, is no longer an issue.

Add on, cash is too easy, so the only choke point in the loss-replace cycle is manufactures. And there I have an advantage. I can send my broken corps to the rear (the ones that have just the HQ, maybe some guns left) and in 6-10 turns they have repaired.

It doesn't matter what they have and how they got it. And obviously the techs don't play much of a role (unless A-H has fallen behind too much, to the point it is in the last decade or so). All nations (especially AI) long term will accumulate cash, especially in the later parts of the game. So money is not an issue. Regarding manufactured goods, is there a global unsatisfiable demand at the moment? Cause, same story, by the lowering of the siparium manufactured goods should be easy to acquire by any nation, unless they are somehow choked. Do you see availability in A-H or Germany or Russia? If yes, chances are that they don't have problems.

Sorry I insist, but I had this issue of winning a good battle to spectacularly lose the one next turn because of low cohesion and many fronts. Losing elements (and entire units) is a mixed blessing. The same as winning but with all troops exiting in a bad shape (hit points, cohesion points).

Cohesion boosting techs are countered by the higher firepower of the newest generation units.

I think he was basically wrong in that I think both systems are a good fit. Its one of the great things about AGEOD is that while they use the same core system it is varied to give a realistic game in each time frame. So AJE et al use their rules to present a style of warfare where it is manouvre between large armies that matters - spread out at your peril. WiA captures the flavour of small armies in a vast area (with poor communications) in much the same way.

Indeed! I think Pride of Nations is in a league of its own, given that war is just one of the many tools you can use for world domination (probably the most efficient). But given its long duration in an era with huge technological advancements and an equally gargantuan map, it is difficult to expect "too tactical" conflicts. But the beauty of PON, especially in glorious AARs such as yours, is in the eventual setting for the Great War you almost inevitably arrive by the early 20th century.

The messy trench wars we see here with technological marvels of the era is for me the best proof that the game works a charm. Of course it needs the modifier's help every now and then, but it's a 1000+ turn game, guys. It is not easy to model it perfectly. I hope in my own AAR/PBEM when I reach 1910 to have a similar all-against-all experience!

Can I have a link to this RUS AAR which seems to be the benchmark? I think, however, that AGE v2 games and AARs will always be different than AGE v3 ones. Since PON is the only v3 game, it will always remain unique!

[Director]

Sounds like Italy took lessons from one of my favorite generals - Belisarius (I would include von Manstein but he's a bit after this time). If you can tempt the enemy into an assault, whether by a retreat or by the occupation of a point he must have, bleed him and then riposte - what von Manstein called a 'backhand blow' - the enemy will be unbalanced and his failure magnified. Perhaps the German general took lessons from von Kluck and von Bulow, or merely thought the war was won and all that remained was a pursuit. So we have 'bookends' of Vienna and Isonzo, both arguments against a hasty advance - what were Germany's losses in that last action, 9-to-1? With France at least holding her own, I think your proposal to rest and refit is wise. But if you can assist Trieste in any way, do so... it is paying immense dividends for you.

I am very happy to hear of your success - as happy as I can remember being of late, which is praise for your 'plucky Italy' and her compelling story. Bravo (for you) and Brava (for Italia).

[loki100]

In all my years of AGEOD playing and Aar reading I don't think I have ever seen anything quite like... I'm not sure even Bornego's RUS Aar ever came close to that.

Never mind what's written in this one, but I guess the Germans must have nightmarish visions like this right now
.[ATTACH=CONFIG]26475[/ATTACH]

I've seen complete wipe-outs, but usually when the numbers are badly matched, catch a corps with a large army and it can be completely defeated. But between two equal armies – no. It was odd to watch, because rounds 1-3 were pretty equal in terms of losses and then they just collapsed. So my guess is they had low cohesion and ceased to able to fight but couldn't pull back – its the only explanation I can come up with

Well... Wow. Willikers. And other zany words starting with 'W'. That really did a number on the Prussians. From the latest power ratings, it looks like the Austrians are in serious trouble (not too big a surprise, given their past performance and insistence on turning Trieste into the world's largest Austrian city - counted by the number of people buried there), but I wasn't expecting the drop in Prussian Power[sup]TM[/sup]. I gather this might be a rather ephemeral blip, but I hope it signals the beginning of major trouble for the hated Hun. If nothing else, maybe the Germans will stall, not knowing whether to pick the western or the Italian front, and you can continue to pick tasty morsels of the twitching Austrian corpse.

Actually, it is near terminal. I'm not sure why (NM hit?) but it sets off a major German defeat on the Rhine too. As with Matnjord's magazine cover – the Germans are not very keen to keep out of my way.

To paraphrase Churchill, Leopold von Bayern has become the only man who could lose the war in an fortnight. Prussian combat power has dropped by 26 points between updates, and Austria's has also fallen by 11. I imagine you must be very frustrated at the fact you simply don't have the capacity to capitalise on their weakness right now.

On the other hand, I take it that the 300,000 Germans who retook Buda are still floating round too. Probably best to be cautious for a bit longer.

From a narrative point of view, I can really see why you stopped the last update where you did. The destruction of your armies outside Wein helped to build tension, which has now largely been dissipated by yet another Austrian failure at the gates of Trieste and the miraculous annihilation of the Germans at Udine.

I'm not too sure where the Buda mob went to. I didn't see them again in 1914 but I think there was a large rebellion in German occupied Serbia so they may have decided that was a lot safer to deal with than risk battle with the Italians.

I had two fresh armies almost ready, so was able to use them from mid-September. But the main armies took till October before I could risk them. Bit frustrating, but better that than a slow attrition of elements due to weakened formations.

It doesn't matter what they have and how they got it. And obviously the techs don't play much of a role (unless A-H has fallen behind too much, to the point it is in the last decade or so). All nations (especially AI) long term will accumulate cash, especially in the later parts of the game. So money is not an issue. Regarding manufactured goods, is there a global unsatisfiable demand at the moment? Cause, same story, by the lowering of the siparium manufactured goods should be easy to acquire by any nation, unless they are somehow choked. Do you see availability in A-H or Germany or Russia? If yes, chances are that they don't have problems.

There is a complete shortage of manufactures and steel. I'm the only person selling either, so they are completely dependent on their domestic production. Given the need to both keep their industry going and keep their armies in the field, I think the Austrian economy has collapsed as a result. Germany is probably far more robust.

The messy trench wars we see here with technological marvels of the era is for me the best proof that the game works a charm. Of course it needs the modifier's help every now and then, but it's a 1000+ turn game, guys. It is not easy to model it perfectly. I hope in my own AAR/PBEM when I reach 1910 to have a similar all-against-all experience!

One of the many good things about PoN is the way that combat evolves. Its not just better unit stats, in the period 1850-70, if you moved and fought, you lost so much cohesion that you had to halt. By 1900, with some mechanisation, all of a sudden armies are quite robust on the move. So you see a real shift in the operational tempo. The intersection between cohesion and attack/defense also alters and then late game techs like tanks bring a very real difference – all within notionally the same simple system.

Can I have a link to this RUS AAR which seems to be the benchmark?

Bornego (One Armed Mexican in this forum) wrote 3 utter gems. The one with the most slaughter is [url=http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?591953-Death-will-stand-grieving-in-that-field-of-war-A-Red-Drang-Campaign-[url=http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?591953-Death-will-stand-grieving-in-that-field-of-war-A-Red-Drang-Campaign-PBEM&p=13525297#post13525297]Death will stand grieving in that field of war[/url], based on the fictional scenario where a victorious Germany tries to settle scores with the nascent Soviet Union. Its an awesome scenario – scares me witless just to open it. His other's are equally well worth the read.

Sounds like Italy took lessons from one of my favorite generals - Belisarius (I would include von Manstein but he's a bit after this time). If you can tempt the enemy into an assault, whether by a retreat or by the occupation of a point he must have, bleed him and then riposte - what von Manstein called a 'backhand blow' - the enemy will be unbalanced and his failure magnified. Perhaps the German general took lessons from von Kluck and von Bulow, or merely thought the war was won and all that remained was a pursuit. So we have 'bookends' of Vienna and Isonzo, both arguments against a hasty advance - what were Germany's losses in that last action, 9-to-1? With France at least holding her own, I think your proposal to rest and refit is wise. But if you can assist Trieste in any way, do so... it is paying immense dividends for you.

I am very happy to hear of your success - as happy as I can remember being of late, which is praise for your 'plucky Italy' and her compelling story. Bravo (for you) and Brava (for Italia).

Given the losses the Germans have just taken it maybe that a few of their later generals will have failed to survive WW1, so lets go for Belisarius.

In general, being on the defense gives large advantages and there I think the Germans were either low on cohesion at the start, or lost cohesion quickly in the early rounds. In any case, for the last 3 rounds of the battle I took almost no losses and few of their units actually managed to fire and none held their morale into the assault phase.

Do hope your forced relocation is not proving to be too awful. If I can offer a sympathetic electronic ear, then drop me an email ...

[loki100]

The final months of 1914 saw the shock waves set off by Udine completely alter the nature of the war. Germany seemed to lose all confidence and ability to conduct the war while the Austrian army ceased to exist as an organised fighting force.

The latter wasn't helped by more idiocy at Trieste. Here, undaunted by the recent German disaster at Udine, the Austrians made yet another attempt to storm Trieste.



By mid-September, Fresh Italian troops were available [1] and were committed to try and raise the seige. The weakened Austrians resisted bravely, but their battered formations soon gave way.


[2]

With that, by early October, the road to the Austrian heartlands appeared to be open.



Equally French and Belgian units had pressed over the Rhine



What followed on the Italian front was a sequence of small skirmishes and quick sieges as fortresses fell. By the start of November, Wien, again, was the target of the Italian army



To the north, the French were being equally ambitious. Bremen had fallen and Berlin was under siege



However, poor co-ordination meant yet another Italian defeat outside Wien [2]



Still despite this, the Fourth Army was able to bring the city under siege.



However, the French reported even more dramatic success [4]



Prestige and losses



The French offensive clearly saw some significant fighting (as I have not clashed with the Germans since Udine). The radical NM shift between them and Germany is due to the fall of Berlin (there is a one-off catastrophic fall on NM). If we make a guess for Belgium, losses among my allies are around 3m and the Austro-German forces have lost 5.7m since the war started.



Finally it appears as if the war is starting to give me a gain in terms of prestige. The key numbers are the US up 11,000 (from 226,662 to 237,896) and I've gained 15,000 (from 306,845 to 321,316).

For the other main combatants, France has gained 4,000 (from 89,651 to 93,101), Germany 2,000 (from 118,593 to 120,448) and Austria 1,000 (from 51,339 to 52,524). Clearly the two powers now losing the war, are really suffering in terms of international reputation.


[1] – the armies that fought at Udine are still recovering
[2] – Numbers are a bit false as it seemed to count in some units left in Udine
[3] – this is a problem where I have my army split across multiple commands, sometimes the stack targetting mechanism means one of my formations takes all the damage – this is going to happen again in late 1915.
[4] – this is not completely good news. The British have a 10% chance to join in each turn that either of Wien or Berlin is occupied.

[Gen. Monkey-Bear]

Um, why is Brazil now on your objective screen?

Anyway, congratulations, you are that much closer to taking Vienna! Don't let up yet, though. Also, perhaps you should consider sending Italian troops to help France and Belgium secure their supply lines. The last thing you want it the AI to trap its French army in Berlin.

[Jim-NC]

Because Brazil now has the 8th largest military in the world. The list shows the top 8 countries (in terms of military), with a few caveats. For example, it will show you those that you are at war with (in this case Austria and Germany), but will not show you nations that have negative relations with you, but whom you are not at war (Loki would have to give us an example of someone with bad relations to determine if they should show up on the list or not). I think the magic number is -25 relations (in our MP game, I can see Prussia, even though our relations are -7 at the moment). If your relations are -26 or worse, but not at war, you can't see the size of their military.

[Gen. Monkey-Bear]

Ah, I see. I thought it was the top 8 prestige countries, but that makes more sense here. Brazil with a large military, that's not good for Paraguay (or Uruguay).

[Dewirix]

[3] – this is a problem where I have my army split across multiple commands, sometimes the stack targetting mechanism means one of my formations takes all the damage – this is going to happen again in late 1915.
[4] – this is not completely good news. The British have a 10% chance to join in each turn that either of Wien or Berlin is occupied.

Hmm... taken together, these comments suggest that the war isn't as much a done deal as it currently appears. It's hard to see what the British would gain from entering the war now - they can't possibly achieve much against Italy and France before you knock Austria, and Germany look to be faring little better at the moment.

It's amazing how quickly the whole situation has turned around. I knew the victory at Udine was important, but I don't think I'd appreciated quite how pivotal it was.

[Gen. Monkey-Bear]

Hmm... taken together, these comments suggest that the war isn't as much a done deal as it currently appears. It's hard to see what the British would gain from entering the war now - they can't possibly achieve much against Italy and France before you knock Austria, and Germany look to be faring little better at the moment.

Objectively true, but, for the sake of our story, the German government is still reporting optimistic propaganda, and refuses to release a casualty report about Udine. In fact, the British cabinet still thinks that Germany is about to over-run Venice. When they hear reports, however, that the French are making gains on Germany's other front, they might decide to step in to help Germany continue the fight against Italy . . . and maybe they can give their French rivals a bloody nose too.

On another note: Maybe I'm just going crazy but, in the picture of the Italian Front after the battle of Wien, are there two army stacks commanded by Tullio Matsi? (One in Salzburg, one in Marsburg). Or does he happen to have a similar-looking brother that's also a general, named Tutsio Matsi?

[Director]

I don't care what anyone's propaganda says - a German flag over Paris or a tricolor over Berlin means it is all but over. If Britain enters the war now she will end like Rumania in WWI, I think, and no responsible British government would consider it for a moment. Now if German divisions were knocking on the gates of Paris... that would be very different. Under the rules you have set up, Britain may come in, but a historically pragmatic British government never would.

Cannot believe the French got to Berlin before you got to Vienna. That's their reward for standing pat and letting you take the blows. Still, you have done well - very well, indeed!

That last post reads darker now than I felt when I wrote it. The winter here is brutal, but it is a very exceptionally bad winter. My knee is bothering me, I have cabin fever and I am completely unable to write. And work is... hard work, since I'm climbing up a steep learning curve. What I really meant to say is that I find few AARs these days with which I can get emotionally involved, but yours has made me not just appreciate your gameplay but want to cheer you on.

So...

[Stuyvesant]

There's a spectacular collapse if I ever saw one. And the biggest shock is that the Germans are buckling even faster than the Austrians! A French occupation of Berlin... Things never cease to amaze.

Wien should fall pretty quickly. That 10% chance of the British joining the war, is that cumulative if both Berlin and Vienna are occupied? And is it a 10% chance per turn? Seems like they'll pile on sooner or later, then (even if Director is right and it would be one foolhardy British government that would declare war on Italy/France at this juncture of the war).

Throwing aside the realism of a British intervention and taking for granted that the 10%/20% chance is going to fire sooner or later, what can the British bring to the war? I'm guessing their (scripted) fleet is still no match for the Regia Marina, and their overall military power is substantially lower than yours. They'd have to pull off a successful amphibious assault in Italy to really change the balance of the war, and I have a hard time believing the AI can pull that off (I'll admit I've been conditioned on HOI3 seaborne invasions, which used to be less than spectacular, so perhaps I'm not giving the AI enough credit).

Does your 'British revenge' script have a condition where the British will stop their pipe dreams if a peace deal is agreed, or is there the chance they'll attack five years down the road, because you held Vienna for a bit at one time?

[Gen. Monkey-Bear]

I guess a more historically likely option would be a British trade embargo against Italy and France. I don't think this can be implemented, however.

[loki100]

Um, why is Brazil now on your objective screen?

Anyway, congratulations, you are that much closer to taking Vienna! Don't let up yet, though. Also, perhaps you should consider sending Italian troops to help France and Belgium secure their supply lines. The last thing you want it the AI to trap its French army in Berlin.

Because Brazil now has the 8th largest military in the world. The list shows the top 8 countries (in terms of military), with a few caveats. For example, it will show you those that you are at war with (in this case Austria and Germany), but will not show you nations that have negative relations with you, but whom you are not at war (Loki would have to give us an example of someone with bad relations to determine if they should show up on the list or not). I think the magic number is -25 relations (in our MP game, I can see Prussia, even though our relations are -7 at the moment). If your relations are -26 or worse, but not at war, you can't see the size of their military.

aye, have to say that the F10 screen really isn't as useful as it could be. Not least the prestige gain shown is only a portion of the total.

While I can undertake actions to help France I can't spare any armies. Even with Austria shattered, I need a lot to finish off their remaing armies.

Hmm... taken together, these comments suggest that the war isn't as much a done deal as it currently appears. It's hard to see what the British would gain from entering the war now - they can't possibly achieve much against Italy and France before you knock Austria, and Germany look to be faring little better at the moment.

It's amazing how quickly the whole situation has turned around. I knew the victory at Udine was important, but I don't think I'd appreciated quite how pivotal it was.

Udine proved to be pivotal. It seemed to knock the Germans off balance for reasons I don't really understand. It maybe that their relative collapse against the French was not related but it seemed to set off a major downward spiral.

GB does indeed join in, almost at the very end. My logic to the script I developed was that if the German-Austrian alliance was on the verge of defeat they would decide this was their last chance for revenge.

But GB -Italy/France is not the last war that breaks out in the after shocks of the main war.

Objectively true, but, for the sake of our story, the German government is still reporting optimistic propaganda, and refuses to release a casualty report about Udine. In fact, the British cabinet still thinks that Germany is about to over-run Venice. When they hear reports, however, that the French are making gains on Germany's other front, they might decide to step in to help Germany continue the fight against Italy . . . and maybe they can give their French rivals a bloody nose too.

On another note: Maybe I'm just going crazy but, in the picture of the Italian Front after the battle of Wien, are there two army stacks commanded by Tullio Matsi? (One in Salzburg, one in Marsburg). Or does he happen to have a similar-looking brother that's also a general, named Tutsio Matsi?

For the last point, I often have an army selected when I take the screenshot, so you see the same army in its start province and end province. So no, its not your eyesight seeing too many Tullios.

I don't care what anyone's propaganda says - a German flag over Paris or a tricolor over Berlin means it is all but over. If Britain enters the war now she will end like Rumania in WWI, I think, and no responsible British government would consider it for a moment. Now if German divisions were knocking on the gates of Paris... that would be very different. Under the rules you have set up, Britain may come in, but a historically pragmatic British government never would.

Cannot believe the French got to Berlin before you got to Vienna. That's their reward for standing pat and letting you take the blows. Still, you have done well - very well, indeed!

That last post reads darker now than I felt when I wrote it. The winter here is brutal, but it is a very exceptionally bad winter. My knee is bothering me, I have cabin fever and I am completely unable to write. And work is... hard work, since I'm climbing up a steep learning curve. What I really meant to say is that I find few AARs these days with which I can get emotionally involved, but yours has made me not just appreciate your gameplay but want to cheer you on.

So...

I was actually very peeved at France's sucess, I mean I should be the one occupying major capitals not them.

Think of this as a Britain keen for revenge – perhaps past the point of common sense. Its just been invaded for the first time since 1688 and its not happy about it. Trying to shore up its final continental allies is the last chance, especiallygiven its spectacular fall behind the US and Russia in global terms.

Sympathise about the writing problem. I'm doing so much formal reports that time for creative writing has just died out. Hence the urge to try something different above, I really want to go back to playing with character driven narrative but its so timeconsuming.

There's a spectacular collapse if I ever saw one. And the biggest shock is that the Germans are buckling even faster than the Austrians! A French occupation of Berlin... Things never cease to amaze.

Wien should fall pretty quickly. That 10% chance of the British joining the war, is that cumulative if both Berlin and Vienna are occupied? And is it a 10% chance per turn? Seems like they'll pile on sooner or later, then (even if Director is right and it would be one foolhardy British government that would declare war on Italy/France at this juncture of the war).

Throwing aside the realism of a British intervention and taking for granted that the 10%/20% chance is going to fire sooner or later, what can the British bring to the war? I'm guessing their (scripted) fleet is still no match for the Regia Marina, and their overall military power is substantially lower than yours. They'd have to pull off a successful amphibious assault in Italy to really change the balance of the war, and I have a hard time believing the AI can pull that off (I'll admit I've been conditioned on HOI3 seaborne invasions, which used to be less than spectacular, so perhaps I'm not giving the AI enough credit).

Does your 'British revenge' script have a condition where the British will stop their pipe dreams if a peace deal is agreed, or is there the chance they'll attack five years down the road, because you held Vienna for a bit at one time?

The script wss 10% per turn if either Berlin or Wien was not held by Germany/Austria. I didn't really expect both to be occupied at the same time – when I did the event my view was that it was likely that at some stage I'd destroy Austria but Germany would be very active, so Britain would be joining a viable, if damaged, alliance.

In pure game terms, I'm interested to see if this time we get to see a proper naval clash. So far its all been destroying enemy fleets in trade boxes and watching the French AI make a lot of creative use of its naval capacity.

I guess a more historically likely option would be a British trade embargo against Italy and France. I don't think this can be implemented, however.

No its war or nothing ... so they end at war ..

[loki100]

Any optimism on the part of the Franco-Italian alliance that by the end of 1914 the war was won was quickly shattered. 1915 saw the entry of Britain and in turn that set off a chain of wars that convulsed Europe throughout the next two years [1].

The year opened with good news as Italian forces captured Vienna for the third time in 30 years.





The Austrians had lost control of almost all their territory south and west of the Danube, but had resorted to partisan warfare behind Italian lines.

Domestically, Italy faced the first stirrings of civil unrest at the war.



Given the cold of winter and the need to secure supply lines, the Italian-Austrian front remained quiet for the rest of January-February [2]. Howver, the Germans had recaptured Berlin in early January but in response, the French had launched a massive naval invasion of E Prussia [3]



The loss of Berlin for a second time was too much for the Germans. By the end of the month, the Germans asked the French for an a separate peace, surrendering their territories in SW Africa.



Perhaps encouraged that Germany would now only have Italy to deal with, Britain declared war on both Italy and France [4].

All of sudden, the basin of the river Niger became a major warzone, with Italian, French and British colonial outposts and armies intermingled.



In South Africa, the front was easier to define and Italian forces crossed the border to invest Durban.



In Australia, an Anglo-Australian army sought to capture Melbourne.



In Europe, one of the last major Austrian armies was destroyed in the south:



But a German offensive retook Innsbruck.



Faced with fighting 3 enemies at the same time, Italy offered relatively gentle terms to the Germans



While waiting for the peace treaty to be agreed, Italian and German forces clashed in Bohemia leading to another major Italian victory


[5]

However, the seemingly endless war led to more dissent



By the end of March, Germany accepted Italy's terms, However, Austria remained defiant [6]



Clearly there has been a lot of fighting by the French in that last period. Not sure why Germany's NM went up so much, may be related to regaining Berlin.

Until the European war could be resolved, the war with Britain was one of colonial clashes and mutual commerce raiding.

[1] – at least, I'm up to May 1916 and all I'll say is some very surprising wars have broken out – mostly with absolutely no help from me.
[2] – at this stage I had about 400 warscore, I want to force the release of 2 nations in order to wreck the Austrians – one will be Czechoslavakia, the other probably Croatia (which will protect my eastern borders)
[3] – very impressive, to see what the AI can do with naval power
[4] – this was the script I'd put in place. I was still at war as I wanted, as above, to really damage Austria this time.
[5] – I think this was the army that had been at Buda during the Udine battles
[6] – actually it keeps on sending me silly peace offers

[Gen. Monkey-Bear]

All of sudden, the basin of the river Niger became a major warzone, with Italian, French and British colonial outposts and armies intermingled.

Attention my African Brothers! The European imperialists wish only for our help in allowing them to dominate our homelands and humiliate our people. Though they look to us as temporary allies, their true intentions are to conquer and exploit. I beg you, do not join their armies of sadists! I implore you, think of what is best for your children and their children! And I appeal to your sense of manhood and your infinite resolve as African men, join the armies of liberation in fighting against all European armies! The time for African Revolution has come!

The handbook distributed to every African Revolutionary: http://books.google.com/books?id=-XGKFJq4eccC&dq=the+wretched+of+the+earth&source=gbs_navlinks_s

Okay, so it's not historical, but it's plausible, right?

However, the seemingly endless war led to more dissent

The Zimmerwald conference. See what I mean?

You best be careful, or else you may have a major revolution globally

[Kensai]

loki100,

are you planning to "enrich" the Russian events? Although the Czar is not in a losing war to have a crisis, it would be so cool to have some kind of Communist revolution taking indeed over (as in real life, abstracted with its own flag in game) and having them thrown into the thick of it. I see your F10 screen, so much military power wasted...

(I will definitely do this in my Game of Thrones!)

[Dewirix]

I can't help but think the war with Germany has ended on something of anti-climax, but given Russia flounced out pretty much on day one I can't say I blame Italy for removing the one enemy it has pretty much nothing to gain from fighting. It may not be the most exciting decision from a dramatic standpoint, but it's certainly pragmatic.

I suspect Director will do a better job of thinking through the ramifications of Germany's defeat, but in essence it's had an accelerated but surprisingly accurate World War I, at least on the macro-scale: Russia defeated, but collapse on the Western Front and Austria-Hungary more of a burden than an asset. If you're able to liberate Czechoslovakia then there will be a German irredenta for nationalists to exploit, in the future too. If Russia collapses into civil war (which I accept isn't a given), the Germans might chance their arm again in the future.

[Stuyvesant]

Germany got off pretty lightly, considering the French managed to capture Berlin twice and you had started a trend of beating up their armies (although the victory in Olmutz severely damaged your army there). Just losing the African colonies was a small price to pay, considering there were no territorial transfers in either West or East (Poland really is out of luck in this timeline: no destroyed Germany, no Russia in turmoil - looks like we won't be seeing Poland anytime soon).

Britain made its suicidal leap (are they also at war with the French? That would be truly stupid) and we get to enjoy the consequences. I expect British Africa to go up in flames, the 'Grand' Fleet to be sunk by eager Italian dreadnoughts, and any British invasion of the continent to end in abject failure, making our Gallipoli look like a Dieppe raid by comparison. Oh, and depending on how eager you are on kicking down the Brits some more, I suspect more British industry in India will make an intimate acquaintance with Italian matches...

Will we see more Italian gentleman officers forced to endure the horrors of Wales (and subsequently retire en masse)?

I'm interested to see which other countries decided (after approximately 10 million casualties) that industrial warfare is what the cool kids are doing right now.