User avatar
Emx77
Posts: 264
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:53 pm
Location: Sarajevo, BiH
Contact: Website

Victory determination criteria - bug or not?

Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:34 pm

I would like to start PBEM game but I'm still reluctant because of strange victory determination criteria. In previous two similar threads we learned that some units, which were seen as worthless in Roman eyes (e.g. Barbarians, Slaves...), have relatively less "weight" in determining battle outcome. That's why Romans could inflict heavy casualties to Slaves and still get stalemate or defeat outcome.

However, in my latest tests with official 1.01 version I have seen some really weird battle outcomes which cannot be explained by above argument. Two weeks ago, I wrote about this in another thread but nobody from official team neither confirmed this as a bug or give reasonable explanation about why some clearly won battles are declared as defeats. I will repeat here what I wrote before.

Image

In above tables you can see battle outcomes where two legions (both have same number of men and horses) fight each other. Only difference among three tests is related to who is in command of Populares legion). Out of 33 battles, in only 4 battles Populares are credited with victory (all four in situation where Marius was in command). However, if you pay attention to numbers, it is really difficult to find explanation why Populares weren't victorious in much more battles. For easy reference, I circled in red these disputed battles.

For example, take a look at 11th battle in Marius test (third table, last battle). In this battle Optimates lost badly. They suffered [color="#FFFF00"]4.797 infantry casualties[/color] while Populares suffered [color="#FFFF00"]only 2.706[/color]. That is a huge difference! Also, Optimates lost entire cavalry while Populares didn't lose a single horseman. By all standards this is a clear Populares victory but still, they retreated and Optimates were declared victorious.

As you may see, there are other battles with similar results which indicates this is not a single exception but rather systematic phenomenon. Do I have to mention what effects this may have when someone is playing against human (or even AI) opponent?

My questions are:

1.) Is this a bug or WAD feature?
2.) If it is a bug, are devs aware of it and when we can expect to see it addressed?
3.) If it is a WAD (which I doubt), can someone give reasonable explanation about above disputed battle outcomes?


User avatar
Franciscus
Posts: 4571
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:31 pm
Location: Portugal

Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:19 pm

Someone more knowleadgeable than me may give you your answers, I will give only a few comments:

- number of men or horses are just flavour, and are not in any way relevant to the engine
- cohesion and experience are very important
- IIRC, if a side retreats, the other is declared winner

Regards

User avatar
Emx77
Posts: 264
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:53 pm
Location: Sarajevo, BiH
Contact: Website

Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:41 pm

Franciscus, thank you for sharing your comments. I know that numbers of men and horses are for flavors but they are directly linked to number of hits. In listed battles, it is obvious that Optimates suffered much more hits. For example, despite the fact that they lost 81% of their force they won battle and forced Populares to retreat. It wouldn't be a problem if Populares suffered same level of casualties. However, Populares suffered 43% casualty rate which is considerably less than 81% (remember, both legions started with same numbers: 6.310 men, 300 horses). How totally shattered and leaderless legion can rout legion led by one of the best generals of that time?

If it is for cohesion, how to explain (rare) battle results where Populares won? For example, take a look at 10th battle in third table. Why they won in 10th battle but not in 11th?

If we can identify primary factor which causes winning force to give up from clearly won battle maybe something can be done with this? Whatever is reason within engine, this mechanics seems unrealistic.

User avatar
Emx77
Posts: 264
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:53 pm
Location: Sarajevo, BiH
Contact: Website

Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:20 am

Another example of strange battle outcomes.

Image

Three weeks has passed since I reported this issue but didn't get any official explanation yet. I know that devs are working hard on BoR but some kind of answer would be appreciated.

Return to “Alea Jacta Est”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 34 guests