The Supply system in WIA and AJE is the "Simple Supply" described in Section 8 of:
http://www.ageod.net/agewiki/Supply
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Bohémond wrote:A leader portrait
[url=[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/692/unitromsulla.png/][/url]]
This is awesome work.
I was actually expecting pictures of white statues. Looks really good.AGE games I own; RUS ,AJE, BOR, H:ToR, AACW, WIA, ROP,NC, CWII, Espana 1936, TYW
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Thanks for the heads up Florent. Those screens were hidden very well. This along with NC2 just gets me very excited for the future. I am sure that both will be great games. They cover two of my favorite historical eras. I also would like to join in saying that the box art is really nice. I always get a feeling of awe when I see the majestic Roman Eagle. Finally I should add that I am Sol Invictus and started a new account because my email address changed a few months ago and all my login info was lost.
Hello all, don't hesitate to go to the first page and click on the cover, you will have a cover with 3 screenshots (although small) of the game.
Ops...never noticed before
Even if you still are in beta the map looks good!
I hope that $ icon and the Population Loyalty icon in ACW style will be changed
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Florent wrote:Hello all, don't hesitate to go to the first page and click on the cover, you will have a cover with 3 screenshots (although small) of the game.
then i hope you also moved back in the images, nice screenshot of the main window with a tiny roman campaign on the peninsula iberica
...not paid by AGEOD.
however, prone to throw them into disarray.
PS:
‘Everything is very simple in War, but the simplest thing is difficult. These difficulties accumulate and produce a friction which no man can imagine exactly who has not seen War . . . in War, through the influence of an infinity of petty circumstances, which cannot properly be described on paper, things disappoint us, and we fall short of the mark.‘
Clausewitz
however, prone to throw them into disarray.
PS:
‘Everything is very simple in War, but the simplest thing is difficult. These difficulties accumulate and produce a friction which no man can imagine exactly who has not seen War . . . in War, through the influence of an infinity of petty circumstances, which cannot properly be described on paper, things disappoint us, and we fall short of the mark.‘
Clausewitz
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have seen it, false word used then... learned by Yoda i have
but looks like Pompeian campaign in Spain, and a do mean MILITARY CAMPAIGN
not the one which entertains us ^^
but looks like Pompeian campaign in Spain, and a do mean MILITARY CAMPAIGN
not the one which entertains us ^^
...not paid by AGEOD.
however, prone to throw them into disarray.
PS:
‘Everything is very simple in War, but the simplest thing is difficult. These difficulties accumulate and produce a friction which no man can imagine exactly who has not seen War . . . in War, through the influence of an infinity of petty circumstances, which cannot properly be described on paper, things disappoint us, and we fall short of the mark.‘
Clausewitz
however, prone to throw them into disarray.
PS:
‘Everything is very simple in War, but the simplest thing is difficult. These difficulties accumulate and produce a friction which no man can imagine exactly who has not seen War . . . in War, through the influence of an infinity of petty circumstances, which cannot properly be described on paper, things disappoint us, and we fall short of the mark.‘
Clausewitz
@Philippe: very good post indeed!
If I remember correctly these observations were focused for the most part on Alexander the Great's Army.
Yes, mostly cereals, forage and water.
I wuold add that historians have paid little attention to the logistics of ancient armies, relying on the assumption that they lived off the land.
I agree with your analysis, the other typical transport was by having a fleet nearby and keeping the army close enough to the sea as to get logistical reinforcements.
Usually they builds supply dumps during the winter months when supply by sea was not possible, of course it was necessary a sheltered/defended area (like forts).
@lodilefty: if I understand correctly is not possible to build up supply turn by turn, no matter the fort/city size, am I right?
Now I have a few reservations about Don Engels' logistics model, but since we're living in a post-Hanson, post-Engels, and post-Peter Green world, his comments have to be taken into account.
If I remember correctly these observations were focused for the most part on Alexander the Great's Army.
so all you really needed to worry about was food.
Yes, mostly cereals, forage and water.
So what it comes down to is that any modern discussion of ancient supply and logistics is by necessity conjectural, because our areas of interest were different from theirs.
I wuold add that historians have paid little attention to the logistics of ancient armies, relying on the assumption that they lived off the land.
The current way of thinking seems to be that armies tended to march from one well-supplied area to another, and when they did they probably weren't carrying more than a week or two of food at most. And some people will tell you that prior to more modern times they couldn't because their pack animals would have consumed their burdens after about a week (this is the part I have reservations about, but it can't be ignored -- it has to do with ancient vs. modern harnesses).
I agree with your analysis, the other typical transport was by having a fleet nearby and keeping the army close enough to the sea as to get logistical reinforcements.
Throughout much of the mediterranean wars were traditionally started in the late spring/early summer, because your troops had to bring in the winter harvest (if there was one) and do the spring planting. You wanted your army to arrive in enemy territory when the crops were ripe, partly because you wanted to prevent your enemy from gathering his harvest, and partly because you wanted to have something to forage.
Usually they builds supply dumps during the winter months when supply by sea was not possible, of course it was necessary a sheltered/defended area (like forts).
@lodilefty: if I understand correctly is not possible to build up supply turn by turn, no matter the fort/city size, am I right?
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the problem with nowadays analysis is, that logistics and supply get mixed up. even from the historians.
Alexander as well as Caesar had fourage troops, some of them looted, some lived from the land, some protected "caravans" if you want to say so...but in hostile lands, indeed many lived from the hand in the mouth.
for 2500 years the daily distance a army out for a brawl would march barely changed, roughly 10 miles / 15-20 Kilometers, sometimes much more, but not constantly.
during Caesars time it is known from, they randomly used horses to supply the legions, thus indeed, lacking a supply depot / fort, winter quarter, you can read in his and other contemporary books, how dare need they were into to live from the land. In Gallia Cisalpina, Germania, Africa, doesnt matter.
In one occasion, they encircled Pompeys troops nearly entirely with palisades but had to walk INTO this area even to get grass from it, and reports indicate this grass was not only for the horses, if you understand...
In Africa however, they just moved towards the enemy, after a long time, for the fleet did not arrive. if we trust on Caesar, the fleet was barely 10-15 miles away, but far too way off, than being any help in supplying the men...
yes, seeing the small provinces...i also get a itching nose if i think about how they will simulate it... but as it looks like, the interface does/did deal with it like AACW (above mentioned screenshot)
Alexander as well as Caesar had fourage troops, some of them looted, some lived from the land, some protected "caravans" if you want to say so...but in hostile lands, indeed many lived from the hand in the mouth.
for 2500 years the daily distance a army out for a brawl would march barely changed, roughly 10 miles / 15-20 Kilometers, sometimes much more, but not constantly.
during Caesars time it is known from, they randomly used horses to supply the legions, thus indeed, lacking a supply depot / fort, winter quarter, you can read in his and other contemporary books, how dare need they were into to live from the land. In Gallia Cisalpina, Germania, Africa, doesnt matter.
In one occasion, they encircled Pompeys troops nearly entirely with palisades but had to walk INTO this area even to get grass from it, and reports indicate this grass was not only for the horses, if you understand...
In Africa however, they just moved towards the enemy, after a long time, for the fleet did not arrive. if we trust on Caesar, the fleet was barely 10-15 miles away, but far too way off, than being any help in supplying the men...
yes, seeing the small provinces...i also get a itching nose if i think about how they will simulate it... but as it looks like, the interface does/did deal with it like AACW (above mentioned screenshot)
...not paid by AGEOD.
however, prone to throw them into disarray.
PS:
‘Everything is very simple in War, but the simplest thing is difficult. These difficulties accumulate and produce a friction which no man can imagine exactly who has not seen War . . . in War, through the influence of an infinity of petty circumstances, which cannot properly be described on paper, things disappoint us, and we fall short of the mark.‘
Clausewitz
however, prone to throw them into disarray.
PS:
‘Everything is very simple in War, but the simplest thing is difficult. These difficulties accumulate and produce a friction which no man can imagine exactly who has not seen War . . . in War, through the influence of an infinity of petty circumstances, which cannot properly be described on paper, things disappoint us, and we fall short of the mark.‘
Clausewitz
"then i hope you also moved back in the images, nice screenshot of the main window with a tiny roman campaign on the peninsula iberica "
No thanks
There is much, much more areas that i thought at first, thus plenty of room for maneuvers. I can't wait the Second Punic War on the Spanish Theater.
Also of interest is that there is much more in the East that i have anticipated, some Campaign for the Diadochoi 317-301 will certainly possible one day.
How Pompée is managed in the game, historically, he was assinated in Egypt after the battle of Pharsalus, how it happens in the game or what are the conditions for assassination ? A big defeat ?
No thanks
There is much, much more areas that i thought at first, thus plenty of room for maneuvers. I can't wait the Second Punic War on the Spanish Theater.
Also of interest is that there is much more in the East that i have anticipated, some Campaign for the Diadochoi 317-301 will certainly possible one day.
How Pompée is managed in the game, historically, he was assinated in Egypt after the battle of Pharsalus, how it happens in the game or what are the conditions for assassination ? A big defeat ?
"but looks like Pompeian campaign in Spain, and a do mean MILITARY CAMPAIGN"
This is the starting of the Great main Campaign in 50 BC, yes Spain is represented and had 7 Veterans legions there under excellent leaders like Lucius Afranius and Marcus Petreius (they had good military experience)with 5 légions (3+2) at Ilerda in North Spain whereas in southern Spain was Marcus Terentius Varro with 2 legions.
Historically Varro stayed in southern Spain whereas he could have concentrated in the North with the other legions, which in course will have complicated Caesar affairs. Because of his future frienships with Caesar, some historians have said
he acted against Pompée but there is no proof at all. IN AJE you will be able as Pompeian player to have plenty of alternatives for campaigning in Spain. Thus the replayibility is total.
If Caesar call them "An Army without a General" it is actually wrong.
If you are interested don't hesitate to go :
http://www.gboh.net/9.html
Then go to the Caesar counter and click on the Ilerda Campaign (By Stephen Jackson) but the Sertorian War and Crossing the Rubicon by Mark Herman are excellent too.
They were first published in C3i Mag and had been put on line in the recently updated website for the GBoH players
It should wet your appetite for AJE.
This is the starting of the Great main Campaign in 50 BC, yes Spain is represented and had 7 Veterans legions there under excellent leaders like Lucius Afranius and Marcus Petreius (they had good military experience)with 5 légions (3+2) at Ilerda in North Spain whereas in southern Spain was Marcus Terentius Varro with 2 legions.
Historically Varro stayed in southern Spain whereas he could have concentrated in the North with the other legions, which in course will have complicated Caesar affairs. Because of his future frienships with Caesar, some historians have said
he acted against Pompée but there is no proof at all. IN AJE you will be able as Pompeian player to have plenty of alternatives for campaigning in Spain. Thus the replayibility is total.
If Caesar call them "An Army without a General" it is actually wrong.
If you are interested don't hesitate to go :
http://www.gboh.net/9.html
Then go to the Caesar counter and click on the Ilerda Campaign (By Stephen Jackson) but the Sertorian War and Crossing the Rubicon by Mark Herman are excellent too.
They were first published in C3i Mag and had been put on line in the recently updated website for the GBoH players
It should wet your appetite for AJE.
For those interested these are the words attributed to Caesar by Suetonius (Loeb edition and translation by Rolfe):
Hos frustra per omnis moras exitu prohibere conatus Romam iter convertit appellatisque de re publica patribus validissimas Pompei copias, quae sub tribus legatis M. Petreio et L. Afranio et M. Varrone in Hispania erant, invasit, professus ante inter suos, ire se ad exercitum sine duce et inde reversurum ad ducem sine exercitu.
After vainly trying by every kind of hindrance to prevent their sailing, he marched off to Rome, and after calling the senate together to discuss public business, went to attack Pompey's strongest forces, which were in Spain under command of three of his lieutenants — Marcus Petreius, Lucius Afranius, and Marcus Varro — saying to his friends before he left "I go to meet an army without a leader, and I shall return to meet a leader without an army."
Hos frustra per omnis moras exitu prohibere conatus Romam iter convertit appellatisque de re publica patribus validissimas Pompei copias, quae sub tribus legatis M. Petreio et L. Afranio et M. Varrone in Hispania erant, invasit, professus ante inter suos, ire se ad exercitum sine duce et inde reversurum ad ducem sine exercitu.
After vainly trying by every kind of hindrance to prevent their sailing, he marched off to Rome, and after calling the senate together to discuss public business, went to attack Pompey's strongest forces, which were in Spain under command of three of his lieutenants — Marcus Petreius, Lucius Afranius, and Marcus Varro — saying to his friends before he left "I go to meet an army without a leader, and I shall return to meet a leader without an army."
Yes but Varro, either under orders or not didn't participate in the Ilerda Campaign.
What will be interesting is what the player will do, concentrate all 7 Veterans legions knowing that Caesar will have a siege of Massilia and have some chance of success in battle using good defensive ground or ...evacuate those veterans rather than left them isolated. Certainly to north Africa in order to raid and take Sicily source of supply before Egypt will have the same supply grain. And then to raid Italy...
The Pompeius player will be more dangerous than reality using the huge Pompeian fleet.
Much replayibility here.
What will be interesting is what the player will do, concentrate all 7 Veterans legions knowing that Caesar will have a siege of Massilia and have some chance of success in battle using good defensive ground or ...evacuate those veterans rather than left them isolated. Certainly to north Africa in order to raid and take Sicily source of supply before Egypt will have the same supply grain. And then to raid Italy...
The Pompeius player will be more dangerous than reality using the huge Pompeian fleet.
Much replayibility here.
Polimar wrote:@lodilefty: if I understand correctly is not possible to build up supply turn by turn, no matter the fort/city size, am I right?
Correct. Supply is generated every turn, but is not accumulated and is not 'forwarded' as in the ''advanced supply' games.
*start shameless plug*
Buy WIA if you don't have it, and you'll have a great way to learn these kind of logistics while you wait for AJE!!
*end shameless plug*
Always ask yourself: "Am I part of the Solution?" If you aren't, then you are part of the Problem!
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Florent wrote:Yes Caesar is Caesar and sometimes some facts and numbers about ennemy had to be taken cautiously...
well spoken...
He was a master of propaganda. however, if you can grab it, find a good book where latin AND greek scriptures are included, you will find that even
"alea iacta est" cant be verified...
its kinda urban legend. the translation of "the dice is thrown" and in latin and greek the meaning differs
its a figure of speech,
Eatur quo deorum ostenta et inimicorum iniquitas vocat. Iacta alea est.
and quite a great many people who really understand the old languages consider it as a metaphor for "everything has been considered" rather than the dice has been thrown in the air as Sueton and Plutarch did, refering to older greek textes written before Caesar even used the term...
(and no, this does not come out of my mind, its an argue in the literature)
...not paid by AGEOD.
however, prone to throw them into disarray.
PS:
‘Everything is very simple in War, but the simplest thing is difficult. These difficulties accumulate and produce a friction which no man can imagine exactly who has not seen War . . . in War, through the influence of an infinity of petty circumstances, which cannot properly be described on paper, things disappoint us, and we fall short of the mark.‘
Clausewitz
however, prone to throw them into disarray.
PS:
‘Everything is very simple in War, but the simplest thing is difficult. These difficulties accumulate and produce a friction which no man can imagine exactly who has not seen War . . . in War, through the influence of an infinity of petty circumstances, which cannot properly be described on paper, things disappoint us, and we fall short of the mark.‘
Clausewitz
Florent wrote:Lodilefty, are Sicily and Egypt playing important role in supply, i mean the player securing them having an advantage or rather more supply ?
I'll defer to the dev team to answer....
I'm an interested bystander with AJE, as I focus on the 'Elder 4' plus now also RUS....
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Correct. Supply is generated every turn, but is not accumulated and is not 'forwarded' as in the ''advanced supply' games.
How the siege will be handled if you cannot stockpile?
Can you use a fleet as "mobile" depot?
*start shameless plug*
Buy WIA if you don't have it, and you'll have a great way to learn these kind of logistics while you wait for AJE!!
*end shameless plug*
Eh eh thanks but I don't like this military conflict
Last question: Will there be a campaign in the initially release?
Polimar wrote:How the siege will be handled if you cannot stockpile?
Can you use a fleet as "mobile" depot?
You'll do it the old traditional Roman way: take supply wagons around in large enough quantities... or have the besieger starve before the besieged...
Polimar wrote:Last question: Will there be a campaign in the initially release?
For what I have seen, the Roman Civil War of Caesar vs Pompey last 10 years, which is quite a campaign for me....
Will the game system show the effects of the flooding of the Nile?
Before the construction of the Aswan dam, once a year for a varying number of weeks (depending on the amount of rainfall in central Africa) the Nile would start changing from a large river to a large lake, and all the areas that it ran through would turn into semi-impassable marsh. The flooding would begin in southern (aka Upper) Egypt, and over the course of a few weeks would spread downstream to the delta in northern (aka Lower) Egypt.
The two Nile floods that had the most dramatic effects on military operations were during the wars of the Diadochi (one of the contenders lost the war because he was murdered after the flood drowned part of his army in a crossing attempt) and the Crusades. But trying to march an army overland to relieve Alexandria wouldn't work very well if it was done while the Nile was in flood. You would almost certainly have to wait a month or two for the flood waters to recede.
Another aspect of ancient geography that differs from the modern world is climate in North Africa in general. It's much drier now than it was then. There's a large system of salt marshes in southern Tunisia that are somewhat reminiscent of what has happened to the Aral Sea: in antiquity they were probably full of water, which is why Tunisia was supplying much of Rome's grain need along with Sicily and Egypt (though no region on earth could match Egypt for fertility because of the annual flooding of the Nile).
Before the construction of the Aswan dam, once a year for a varying number of weeks (depending on the amount of rainfall in central Africa) the Nile would start changing from a large river to a large lake, and all the areas that it ran through would turn into semi-impassable marsh. The flooding would begin in southern (aka Upper) Egypt, and over the course of a few weeks would spread downstream to the delta in northern (aka Lower) Egypt.
The two Nile floods that had the most dramatic effects on military operations were during the wars of the Diadochi (one of the contenders lost the war because he was murdered after the flood drowned part of his army in a crossing attempt) and the Crusades. But trying to march an army overland to relieve Alexandria wouldn't work very well if it was done while the Nile was in flood. You would almost certainly have to wait a month or two for the flood waters to recede.
Another aspect of ancient geography that differs from the modern world is climate in North Africa in general. It's much drier now than it was then. There's a large system of salt marshes in southern Tunisia that are somewhat reminiscent of what has happened to the Aral Sea: in antiquity they were probably full of water, which is why Tunisia was supplying much of Rome's grain need along with Sicily and Egypt (though no region on earth could match Egypt for fertility because of the annual flooding of the Nile).
"You'll do it the old traditional Roman way: take supply wagons around in large enough quantities... or have the besieger starve before the besieged."
Well this is Peloponnesian War type of Siege with a one year starvation, with Hellenistic and eastern way of Warfare (Tyre), you would use Tower with different floor each equipped with catapults sending arrows, archers and slingers would swept the defenders from the wall and the Rams would breach the wall in order to assault the town.
I hope that something will exist replacing the siege artillery in this case this is Tower which inflict losses on defenders and Ram breaching the walls. The towers could bring soldiers too directly on the walls.
Well this is Peloponnesian War type of Siege with a one year starvation, with Hellenistic and eastern way of Warfare (Tyre), you would use Tower with different floor each equipped with catapults sending arrows, archers and slingers would swept the defenders from the wall and the Rams would breach the wall in order to assault the town.
I hope that something will exist replacing the siege artillery in this case this is Tower which inflict losses on defenders and Ram breaching the walls. The towers could bring soldiers too directly on the walls.
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