Forts and zone of control

[superdave26505]

I had a few questions about ZOC, forts, evade combat, etc.

Unbesieged forts are going to exert enough patrol points to stop an army under normal circumstances, but is there a way to get past a fort?

Would cavalry/irregulars in passive and evade combat be able to pass a fort and get MC in the next province thus allowing an army to bypass a fort? How likely/what stats would determine the chance of success?

In the case of a besieged fort, the patrol points is going to go down since MC will be 5% but what happens to the patrol points of the garrison? If it's a strong garrison would it still exert a significant ZOC? Could there be a situation where a strongly held fort could block movement past it even when the fort is besieged?

[Philo32b]

Would cavalry/irregulars in passive and evade combat be able to pass a fort and get MC in the next province thus allowing an army to bypass a fort? How likely/what stats would determine the chance of success?

If your force is in passive posture they won't gain any MC. I would do what you say, though, and send in a small unit of cavalry/irregulars; just not on passive.

[ArmChairGeneral]

I am far from an expert on these topics, but have been looking into them because this thread has piqued my interest

According to the manual, so take this with a grain of salt:

Garrisoned or autogarrisoned forts prevent units from transiting the region, stopping them from continuing past. The implication, although not explicit, is that you cannot just move past a fort without having to stop in the region on the way through, even if they are stealthy. Once they stop, they are no longer moving, and the Evade Combat order has no effect until you are leaving on an ensuing turn, when you are moving again. It makes no mention of a fort's Patrol vs Evade calculation, implying that this behaves normally (see below). This should be relatively easy to test, have you tried it since your original post?

When a stack moves into a region with a fort, their Hide value is automatically set to 1, unless it is in passive posture, then it retains its normal Hide value. This means that most of the time a fort will give you a very good peek into the composition of enemy stacks in the region, especially with a Cav around to give you 5 Detect (it won't need to be in the structure). Stealthy units in passive posture in regions with forts are able to hide normally, so the enemy is less likely to know the make-up of the stack, and when you exit the region with them they can pillage it on the way out using Evade Combat order, since they will be moving again.

From limited experience and poorly remembered archived threads (bigger grain of salt):

I think forts add a pretty hefty Patrol value to oppose the enemy's Evade stat. This is based on something I think I read about ZOC being partly determined by Patrol value and the fact that ZOC's seem to show up most commonly in regions with forts. The extra Patrol would definitely apply to forces in the garrison, but I think also is added to all stacks in the region making it more likely that troops entrenched in the region can force enemy stacks into combat when they are in offensive posture (the Patrolling force is in offense, that is). This is useful in situations where you have marauders or other small forces that you are trying to force into combat to overwhelm or chase away. If it is a large stack, then you would want to be in defensive posture anyway, so not as important.

Forces entrenched outside the fort will usually be in defensive posture, because most times most stacks are in defensive posture. In this case the Patrol vs Evade calculation will not need to happen at all if neither side is on offense. I have seen stacks on defense engage each other occasionally; perhaps fort additions to Patrol values played a role in this, it is otherwise rather mysterious when this happens. It is also not something you would necessarily want to happen: better to sit tight and make them go to orange or red if they want to fight you.

In order to bypass a fort like you are describing with stealthy units based on the (possibly erroneous and/or incomplete) analysis above:

Observe the fort ahead of time to see what is there as best you can. If there is not a large force there or if there isn't any cav you can see, Set to G/G and Evade Combat which will apply to any regions you pass through on your way to the fort. When you arrive you must stop anyway, so you might as well plot the fort as your final destination. You may be Detected while you are there, (Detect vs Hide calculation) and they will know what you have. Unless the force in the region was set to offensive, you will not enter combat. If they were set to offensive, you still have a decent chance to Evade, (Patrol vs Evade calculation) since you have stealthy units, but made harder by the fort's Patrol value and the fact that Evade Combat does not apply. Large forces set to offensive will be hard to Evade because their side of the equation (Patrol) is cumulative while Evade uses the lowest number in the stack just like Hide.

If there is no combat, on the next turn set to G/G and Evade Combat and send them to their final destination. You are considered to be moving now, so Evade Combat applies again, and you are more likely to get out unscratched, even if they go to offensive to try to catch you, which they may do since they now know you are there.

If either of you have had any more experience playing with this, or if anyone else wants to chime in, Detect-Hide and Patrol-Evade effects from forts are interesting questions that deserve further examination.

[ArmChairGeneral]

Oops, got confused about which forum I was reading, and was looking at the CW2 manual, although I think almost all of this stuff applies to AJE; most of the relevant mechanics of Patrol-Evade and Detect-Hide are the same, although the exact properties of structures (and obviously units) varies between AGEOD games. Still don't think you can pass a fort no matter what, though I will be checking this out in my next games in both AJE and CW2.

Also, though you will not gain MC in passive posture, if the final target region is above 90% (I think that is the cutoff, could be 95%) enemy controlled then you will automatically switch to offensive posture upon entry, and will then start gaining MC immediately. If the target region is not in the auto-offense loyalty range (you have too much control already) then you will remain in passive posture and not increase MC until you change posture on the third turn.

[ArmChairGeneral]

Looking over what I typed up last night, I realize I was tired and unclear about something important. Because the fort will probably have 100% enemy MC around it, you will be switching to offensive posture when you arrive. If the defenders are INSIDE the fort you will not engage them if they are on defense, but if they are OUTSIDE, you probably will, because they have good patrol. That's why it is important to see what is in the region first; you won't necessarily be able to tell ahead of time if they are in the structure or not, so if you don't think your cav/irregs can survive a potential battle, DON'T GO. /G posture helps, hopefully you can disengage in time, but this is not guaranteed.