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lodilefty
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Tue May 15, 2012 12:25 pm

Pat "Stonewall" Cleburne wrote:No prob Lodi. I didn't save the turn above, but I'm playing Drang so I can find a problem almost every turn because all of the stacks are so big. Check out Sievers force in Simferopol. It can only move into 22% MC or above because of 1 enemy armored car unit. Take a few units out to get his evasion above 1 and the restrictions go away.

[ATTACH]18147[/ATTACH]


Thanks for the save!

This is the way the game engine currently works when the enemy controls the structure in a region. It's as much the 'influence' of the structure as it is the AC unit. Sending a small 'recon' force to adjacent region(s) is also a way to free up the movement. Of greater import: if you were surrounded by regions like this and had to retreat from combat, you could be anhilated! [I've seen this in WIA: forces besieging at Quebec cannot retreat!]

This is a good example of one of the issues eventually to be resolved before a WW1 or WW2 game can be done.
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Pat "Stonewall" Cleburne
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Tue May 15, 2012 3:49 pm

I'm not sure it's just a structure issue. I didn't notice that they had recaptured the structure in that save, but it's happening even when I own the structure. I'll see if I can get a different save that shows the situation better later today.

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lodilefty
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Tue May 15, 2012 4:30 pm

Pat "Stonewall" Cleburne wrote:I'm not sure it's just a structure issue. I didn't notice that they had recaptured the structure in that save, but it's happening even when I own the structure. I'll see if I can get a different save that shows the situation better later today.


No, that's OK. It appears to be WAD, and AFAIK is inherent in the current game engine.
The 'players fix' is to send a recon to where you may want to go, to increase the MC there.

..actually seems to somewhat model the 'paralysis' of large forces in a linear front situation..... ;)
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Old Fenrir
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Tue May 15, 2012 9:31 pm

Orel wrote: As well, realistically, the mobility of cannon on the field and on the march are two separate things.

Of course. But it is things substantially related to each other.

Orel wrote: Not to mention, that in a situation of a civil war whites often were forced to reuse old shell cases by recharging them with gunpowder: what can be said of the luxury to have special limbers.

Not limbers - artillery caissons, I suppose.

Orel wrote: I have a book written by a certain Boleslav Wewern "The 6th Battery". He was a commander of a field artillery battery in 1914 and was in charge of it for at least 3 years. In his book, in one section I believe dealing with the period between 1914 and 1915, he mentions of how his artillery was constantly slowed down by the infantry.



76mm field cannons in movement:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]18143[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]18145[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]18146[/ATTACH]

a howitzer:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]18144[/ATTACH]

I have somewhat different impression about foot artillery mobility from Wewern's memories. Something like this: excruciating marches on bad roads and climbings to the hills. As for infantry - I suppose, case is not in speed of march of battery or infantry regiment itself. But in poor organization of the march of large army units (division level and higher) - which was "Achilles' heel" of contemporary Russian Imperuial Army. Wewern also wrote, that during the retreat artillery could not keep up with the briskly retreating infantry.

As regards to photos - yes, there are lads, riding on harnessed horses (I don't know how to translate word "ездовой" ("horsedriver", maybe :D )). But combat crew of 76-mm 1902 field gun is 9 men, and this lads was not included in it. And only 2 of abovementioned 9 men was moved sitting on the limber, as far as I know. Others was marching on their two own foot. Add to this the need from time to time help horsies to drag out cannons, caissons, and carts from sand, mud and lift them on the heights - and I don't know how foot artillery may be more mobile on march than infantry.

As regards to comparision of strategic mobility of foot and horse artillery. I don't have staffing information about RIA batteries of WWI, but contemporary Caiser Army light foot battery has 6 cannons, 153 men, 139 horses. Horse battery of Caiser Army has 4 cannons, 137 men, 180 horses. Thus, horse battery has two time more horses per each gun and associated carts and crew. Add to this the fact that all men in horse battery is mounted or moving on carts, the fact that the limbered horse cannon is lighter, the fact that the horse batteries has better horses (usually) - and you will get significant advantage in mobility on march compared to foot battery.

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Orel
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Wed May 16, 2012 5:40 pm

Old Fenrir wrote:Of course. But it is things substantially related to each other.


Not limbers - artillery caissons, I suppose.


They are related but are not equal to each other. I doubt that the marching speed of a horse and field 76mm cannon would be that different, the 300kg of course make the job easier for the horses, but it is doubtful that it would make the situation that much different on the march, and possibly even on the battlefield. For example, one of the reasons why the army wished to make a new horse artillery cannon was because the reduction in mass by 300kg was not enough to increase the maneuverability of the cannon close enough to the one the army wanted.


Old Fenrir wrote:I have somewhat different impression about foot artillery mobility from Wewern's memories. Something like this: excruciating marches on bad roads and climbings to the hills. As for infantry - I suppose, case is not in speed of march of battery or infantry regiment itself. But in poor organization of the march of large army units (division level and higher) - which was "Achilles' heel" of contemporary Russian Imperuial Army. Wewern also wrote, that during the retreat artillery could not keep up with the briskly retreating infantry.

As regards to photos - yes, there are lads, riding on harnessed horses (I don't know how to translate word "ездовой" ("horsedriver", maybe :D )). But combat crew of 76-mm 1902 field gun is 9 men, and this lads was not included in it. And only 2 of abovementioned 9 men was moved sitting on the limber, as far as I know. Others was marching on their two own foot. Add to this the need from time to time help horsies to drag out cannons, caissons, and carts from sand, mud and lift them on the heights - and I don't know how foot artillery may be more mobile on march than infantry.

As regards to comparision of strategic mobility of foot and horse artillery. I don't have staffing information about RIA batteries of WWI, but contemporary Caiser Army light foot battery has 6 cannons, 153 men, 139 horses. Horse battery of Caiser Army has 4 cannons, 137 men, 180 horses. Thus, horse battery has two time more horses per each gun and associated carts and crew. Add to this the fact that all men in horse battery is mounted or moving on carts, the fact that the limbered horse cannon is lighter, the fact that the horse batteries has better horses (usually) - and you will get significant advantage in mobility on march compared to foot battery.


Carpathians... And notice, even in such a place as the Carpathian mountains the artillery would be faster than the infantry under normal circumstances. And the artillery was slowed down by the retreating rear units, whereas in a normal situation it would be faster than the infantry. It is the same thing as saying that an automobile is slower than a human: and justify this by comparing the common speed of a human and the speed of a car in the special case of a traffic jam. Wewern wrote that the infantry like a walker, went around the traffic jam while his artillery couldn't do likewise.

What were the responsibilities of the other 7 members of the crew? And were they the crew of the battery or of the individual cannon?
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lodilefty
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Thu May 17, 2012 2:28 pm

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Narwhal
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Thu May 17, 2012 3:30 pm

That's quite a huge job you are doing here, Lodilefty. All this for a game which is not even directly AGEOD's... I am impressed.

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OneArmedMexican
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Thu May 17, 2012 5:02 pm

Me too. Lodilefty is fixing bugs at an incredible speed. And he does that for 4 or 5 games. We AGEOD fans owe a huge deal of gratitude to him. :thumbsup:

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ERISS
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Thu May 17, 2012 5:47 pm

lodilefty wrote:Text:
--added Spanish lanuage corrections to LocalStrings__AGE

Hey I was told it was forbidden to touch this file when I sent corrections! I'm jalous, the French version could have been corrected before the Spanish one. Now I must remove my boredom for having sent corrections for nothing...

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Old Fenrir
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Thu May 17, 2012 10:46 pm

Yes, definitely good job has been done in latest patсh and quikfixes. :) Including gratifying changes in the game engine, which affected not only RUS, but ACW too, as far as I could notice.

[HR][/HR]

Orel wrote:They are related but are not equal to each other. I doubt that the marching speed of a horse and field 76mm cannon would be that different, the 300kg of course make the job easier for the horses, but it is doubtful that it would make the situation that much different on the march, and possibly even on the battlefield. For example, one of the reasons why the army wished to make a new horse artillery cannon was because the reduction in mass by 300kg was not enough to increase the maneuverability of the cannon close enough to the one the army wanted.

If to speak specifically about the march, the case is not only in 300kg difference of limbered horse and foot cannons. Difference mainly is in the double number of the horses per cannon in horse battery, totally mounted battery personel and better horses.
As regards to complaints of an insufficient mobility, as far as I know, - speech was just about tactical mobility of guns on the battlefield (advance on gallop in front of deploying for attack cavalry). There was no complains about mobility of battery on march - artillery have not slowed down cavalry on the march.

Orel wrote:Carpathians... And notice, even in such a place as the Carpathian mountains the artillery would be faster than the infantry under normal circumstances. And the artillery was slowed down by the retreating rear units, whereas in a normal situation it would be faster than the infantry. It is the same thing as saying that an automobile is slower than a human: and justify this by comparing the common speed of a human and the speed of a car in the special case of a traffic jam. Wewern wrote that the infantry like a walker, went around the traffic jam while his artillery couldn't do likewise.

I'm not sure, that foot artillery in normal situation was faster (at least - much faster) than infantry. Eventually, infantry - it is men in full marching order, foot artillery - it is men, who marching light, guns, caissons and carts. Here may be on the good roads advantage in favor of artillery, but hardly big. On the other hand, normal marching speed of infantry ~30km/day, and on forced march ~1,5 times more. And the Wewern himself writes, that his battery was doing 45-50km/day on forced march.

Orel wrote:What were the responsibilities of the other 7 members of the crew? And were they the crew of the battery or of the individual cannon?

It is gun crew itself, which operates on combat position. All battery personnel was something like 25-30 men per cannon.
eng_8lb.jpg

eng_8lb.jpg


As I say before, I have no staffing information about exactly Russian artillery of WWI. But, there is classical composition of crew of horse-towed guns with non-automatic breech block. Sorry, I don't know how to translate russian names of artillery crew "numbers". :)
1. Фейерверкер (commander of gun, sergeant).
2. Наводчик (directing gun on object).
3. Замковый (opening and closing breech block).
4. Заряжающий (loading shell).
5-9. Установщики (men, who setting up detonators on shells) and ящичные (men, who delivers shells from limber or caisson).
By the way, I was mistaken in previous post: two men, who delivers shells from limber or caisson, performed "hosedrivers" functions, when gun is limbered.
Russian 122-mm howitzer:
eng_8lb.jpg

English 18-lb:
eng_8lb.jpg

Austrian 80-mm:
eng_8lb.jpg


May be, it is worth in order not to clutter this topic, make special topic for discussion about WWI and RCW warfare? :)
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rus122.JPG
austr.JPG
216.jpg
184.jpg

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ERISS
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Tue May 29, 2012 11:27 pm

Double Neman river can still be corrected (by Sesupe river name): see my (old) files here:
http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?21163-Beta-Patch-1-02b&p=205178&viewfull=1#post205178

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lodilefty
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Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:52 pm

Qwik Fix 6 posted - see post #1 of this thread.

If no major [as defined by me :D ] bugs are found, we will publish an official patch 1.05a soon.

Enjoy!
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Orel
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Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:45 pm

Not too serious, but the photo for Pokrovskiy is actually the photo of Kutepov.
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lodilefty
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Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:22 pm

I'm ready to assemble an official patch 1.05a.

Are there any game-breaker issues remaining after QF6 ???
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parasxos
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Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:03 pm

So ulagai is perma banned ;) from the grand campaign or is a temp measure? (also if he's gonne can i carry on with my grand campaign which contains two of them or should i start again??)

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lodilefty
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Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:33 pm

parasxos wrote:So ulagai is perma banned ;) from the grand campaign or is a temp measure? (also if he's gonne can i carry on with my grand campaign which contains two of them or should i start again??)


It's totally up to you whether you restart.

You could continue by simply 'parking' the duplicate off in a corner and not using him.

His banning is permanent, for new games started with QF6 or later.
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jack54
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Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:39 pm

Orel wrote:Not too serious, but the photo for Pokrovskiy is actually the photo of Kutepov.


I think this will correct the issue :) . I hope I found the proper photo.

Unit_WHI_Pokrovsky.png
Unit_WHI_Pokrovsky.png (14.72 KiB) Viewed 8334 times


Unit_WHI_Pokrovsky.png
Unit_WHI_Pokrovsky.png (14.72 KiB) Viewed 8334 times
Attachments
Army_WHI_Pokrovsky.png
AGE games I own; RUS ,AJE, BOR, H:ToR, AACW, WIA, ROP,NC, CWII, Espana 1936, TYW
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OneArmedMexican
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Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:55 pm

jack54 wrote:I think this will correct the issue :) . I hope I found the proper photo.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]18354[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]18355[/ATTACH]


Beautiful work, Jack! :thumbsup: Somehow this one must have slipped through because I seem to remember the photograph you used.

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Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:23 pm

OneArmedMexican wrote:Beautiful work, Jack! :thumbsup: Somehow this one must have slipped through because I seem to remember the photograph you used.


Thanks OAM, after I went to wikipedia I said the same thing to myself... 'I've seen this before'. Good catch by 'Orel'. :thumbsup:
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lodilefty
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Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:43 am

jack54 wrote:I think this will correct the issue :) . I hope I found the proper photo.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]18354[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]18355[/ATTACH]


They'll be "in" :D
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jack54
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Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:56 am

lodilefty wrote:They'll be "in" :D


I am 'Always' honored.... THANKS!
AGE games I own; RUS ,AJE, BOR, H:ToR, AACW, WIA, ROP,NC, CWII, Espana 1936, TYW

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lodilefty
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Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:05 pm

Official patch 1.05a published.
All of these Fixes are included.

Thank you for your feedback and input!

Thread closed
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