The Hammer & Sickle

[ERISS]

I see my post (in the Wargamer review one here) has been removed.
Edit: Woops, not removed (sorry for saying this): it was here
http://www.ageod-forum.com/showpost.php?p=191307&postcount=54

The svastika is banned in some european countries.
The hammer&sickle too.

I think it's still can be an offense for many (mainly for people in countries been occupied by Communists). If you don't want to sell in Poland, Hungary, Lithuania, that's a good way to show this big symbol in front of the game box.
That is like you want to sell in France (or Britain, even not occupied) a game with a big svastika (even the game would be about the Resistance against nazism).

[Василеостровск]

I think you are having over reaction. I don't think people wanting to buy this product will decide not to because of this cover (which has great artwork, i applaud artist!) Especially in digital download age.

I understand comparison you trying to make, but reality of situation in marketing is they are not comparable, around world wearing swastika would bring negative attention, but hammer and sickle and other communist symbols are not looked at in same light. Che Guerra shits and pins are or were very fashion and he was brutal man. Right or wrong, hammer and sickle does not have same world wide stigma as swastika

[ERISS]

I think you are having over reaction.

For I do lived the bolshevik (trotskist/leninst) cheated way, in nowaday syndicalism.
They do "general assembly" (restricted to who they like) to ban who they don't like* (I was not among the banned, but I left the syndicate as I was sick with this).
A real general assembly should have decided to ban those commies for this, but many leftists didn't care about the abuse!
So, yes, I almost spit on H&S symbol.
* It was in Grenoble, SUD syndicate, 3(?) years ago.

[Rafiki]

[color="Blue"]First of all, where is this post supposed to have been removed from? I haven't removed any posts, and I see no traces of any removed posts (which I'd normally do, if someone else removed them).

Secondly, all symbolism connected to the art of the game must be interpreted in the context of the game's subject matter.

Thirdly, what happened in Grenoble, SUD syndicate ~3 years ago is not relevant to this game, so discussions about that are best left for other places[/color]

[Василеостровск]

ERISS It seems to me like you just have personal reaction to the symbol. You do not like it and you trying to make this art a rallying cause to get people to listen to you. But the context this is used in is perfect to convey the message. I also see your post you made yesterday, it was not removed at all.

[Kev_uk]

Eriss:- The Whites are waiting for you on the 23rd....

[Philippe]

I see my post (in the Wargamer review one here) has been removed.

I just read it and I'm shoked.

[Reverend Zombie]

I see my post (in the Wargamer review one here) has been removed.

Your post wasn't removed--it's still in the thread where you made it, it's just that you didn't make the comment in the thread you think you made it in.

[barbu]

My 2 cents as a citizen of a former Communist country:

First cent: No cover is more relevant than the fact you can play as the Bolsheviks. Anyone who gets upset about the cover should get upset about the game existing in the first place (which would be stupid).

Second cent: In some areas, such as the Baltic states, the hammer and sickle have a stronger emotional ... weight than in others, because they stand not only for ideological and economical conversion, but also for national occupation. However, it's a ***GAME****.

[Василеостровск]

My 2 cents as a citizen of a former Communist country:

First cent: No cover is more relevant than the fact you can play as the Bolsheviks. Anyone who gets upset about the cover should get upset about the game existing in the first place (which would be stupid).

Second cent: In some areas, such as the Baltic states, the hammer and sickle have a stronger emotional ... weight than in others, because they stand not only for ideological and economical conversion, but also for national occupation. However, it's a ***GAME****.

I agree, though Baltic States were not just subjected by Soviets, also by Russian Empire...

[barbu]

You're right, I had forgotten that.

[Василеостровск]

You're right, I had forgotten that.

Yes, civil war lead to independence for Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, until WW2 that is..

[ERISS]

[color="Blue"]First of all, where is this post supposed to have been removed from? I haven't removed any posts, and I see no traces of any removed posts (which I'd normally do, if someone else removed them).[/color]

Yes, I'm sorry. I was sure I posted it in the Wargamer review thread, and that wasn't. It was in another after someone put a link to the Wargamer review.
If wanted, I can edit and remove by myself all about your 1st and 3rd points.

[Rafiki]

No worries, Eriss; I just want to make sure that there are no misunderstandings

[Cat Lord]

The svastika is banned in some european countries.
The hammer&sickle too.

As far as I know, the only country which are banning the Svastika on commercial products are Germany and Austria:

The German (and Austrian) postwar criminal code makes the public showing of the Hakenkreuz (the swastika) and other Nazi symbols illegal and punishable, except for scholarly reasons. It is even censored from the lithographs on boxes of model kits, and the decals that come in the box. Modellers seeking an accurate rendition often have to either stencil on the marking, or purchase separate decals. It is also censored from the reprints of 1930s railway timetables published by the Reichsbahn. The eagle remains, but appears to be holding a solid black circle between its talons.

Hence why it's not on the different version of Paradox HoI game for example, etc... Note that when a company makes a big majority of their sales in the US, they don't care about the German market, and they are svastika in them (Steel Panther World at War is an immediate memory of me as an example).

The other example is Hungary.

In Hungary, it is a criminal misdemeanour to publicly display "totalitarian symbols", including the swastika, the SS insignia and the Arrow Cross, punishable by fine. Display for academic, educational, artistic or journalistic reasons is allowed. Note that the communist symbols of hammer and sickle and the red star are also regarded as a totalitarian symbols and have the same restriction by Hungarian criminal law.

But I don't think that online shopping from a non-hungarian server qualifies as "public display", and we don't intend to sell the game on retail there.

Same goes for Latvia, Lithuania and Poland. If you buy the online version, it's not public display.

In some countries that were formerly occupied by the Soviet Union, the public display of the Hammer and Sickle and other communist symbols such as the Red Star is considered a criminal offence. The Republic of Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland have banned the symbol along with other communist symbols. Persons found guilty of possession, production or distribution of communist symbols may in Poland be sentenced to two years in prison. A similar law was considered in the Republic of Estonia, but eventually failed in a parliamentary committee.

In 2003, Hungarian politician Attila Vajnai was arrested, handcuffed and fined for wearing a red star on his lapel during a demonstration. He appealed his sentence to the European Court of Human Rights, which decided last year that the ban was a violation of the freedom of expression, calling the Hungarian ban "indiscriminate" and "too broad."

Cat

[ERISS]

, they don't care about the German market, and they are svastika in them (Steel Panther World at War is an immediate memory of me as an example).

Maybe. But not on the frontbox (that was a Panther http://www.jeuxvideopc.com/jeux/boite-8496-steel-panthers.php). And surely not a big one occupying all the space.
I said I was ok for ingame offensive symbols (if they are historically used), but not as purchasing tools (but I've had not say anything if the H&S was some small on the box).
Final, anybody do what they want, putting big offensive symbols on boxes, or even others not wanting to purchase them.
Feel free, I'll buy, even I will be some disgusted lol.

[runnersan]

I saw hammer and sickle on game covers in Poland. So there is no problem, when you show it in historical context (and a game is historical).

[Василеостровск]

And Hockey Club SKA from my city has no problem wearing their kit when playing Dynamo Riga in Riga...



It is non issue poster ERISS is trying to raise because he does not like it.

[Kev_uk]

I can appreciate Eriss's concern, if he had bad experiences with Stalinists as part of a Syndicate. Sometimes, and again I speak from personal experience, that they can be abusing and very judgemental if they do not like you for whatever reason. I had a similar experience, but I would rather see a T-34 than a Tiger.

[ERISS]

And Hockey Club SKA from my city has no problem wearing their kit when playing Dynamo Riga in Riga...

For Russia (moscovite bolsheviks) took power of others country (not the reverse), and you seem russian, then I understand why you say that.

I think the shirt is the shame for some hockey players, but they prefer playing. And then they will be used to wearing it (hey I was used to wearing a military uniform and I really don't like them).

[Василеостровск]

For Russia (moscovite bolsheviks) took power of others country (not the reverse), and you seem russian, then I understand why you say that.

I think the shirt is the shame for some hockey players, but they prefer playing. And then they will be used to wearing it (hey I was used to wearing a military uniform and I really don't like them).

No I say that because hockey kit is worn in country where it is 'crime' to wear it, and shown on televisor etc. Also Latvians that fought for Nazis are honored in Riga including use of Nazi symbolism. ( http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/16/latvia-war-remembrance-nazi-row )

I really care very little about what soldiers Latvians honour, but point is law isn't enforced much, when professional hockey teams wear supposed banned symbols and police protect people posting banned symbols in public.

No member of SKA feels shame in that symbol, for one thing it is symbol of club since club was Red Army hockey club originally, it stands for the Red Army. And also despite mistakes made in past, Russia and Russians aren't ashamed and don't allow other nations to make us feel guilt about past.

Which comes to your opinion on cover art. You don't like it for personal reasons, you made your opinion known. The company is not going to change it because the type of communist you are doesn't like the type of communist that uses this. It fits the theme, it breaks no laws, it is beautiful art, you have still said you will purchase game, so I guess there is nothing more to say.

Now we should stop debating pointlessly and wait impatiently for November 23.

[barbu]

Maybe we're all getting psyched up ideologically for the game. You know, like boxers before a fight. "I hate the hammer and sickle! I am so going to conquer Petrograd as soon as I have the game!"



.

[Tamas]

Remember when China banned HOI2 thus creating free advertising for Paradox?

Let's hope RUS get's some east euro press attention, for the same effect


Seriously though, I am a Hungarian, and altough I consider the hammer and sickle just as a symbol of evil as the svastika, I have no problems with seeing them in games. And I am pretty sure selling stuff from a non-hungarian server is not "public display"

[ERISS]

Seriously though, I am a Hungarian, and altough I consider the hammer and sickle just as a symbol of evil as the svastika, I have no problems with seeing them in games. And I am pretty sure selling stuff from a non-hungarian server is not "public display"

I repeat the problem IS "public display" (big symbol taking all the front of the box), not ingame symbols.

[PhilThib]

Gentlemen,

The EU law regarding sale of products through Internet is that the product in question should respect legal contingencies and regulations in the country where the website is based.

So far, AFAIK, France has not forbidden the Communist Symbol, nor most EU nations but a few. Therefore this is a no issue

We shall be careful that these discussions do not degenerate in polemics, or the thread will be closed.

Matter close for us. Thanks

[Clovis]

I repeat the problem IS "public display" (big symbol taking all the front of the box), not ingame symbols.

Eriss, have you played the demo ?

[Василеостровск]

Eriss, have you played the demo ?

I have, I love it, and I have changed my avatar to show my allegiance

[ERISS]

Note that when a company makes a big majority of their sales in the US, they don't care about the German market, and they are svastika in them

Yep, many americans are fond of the svastika, but for them it is mainly a symbol of the werchmacht, not the nazy.
Americans are fond of the wechmacht for this army had the better organisation: initiative and responsability (why the germans won the french army which were paralized by its own bureaucracy and aristocracy). So much that nowaday US Army has copied the werchmacht organisation.

I talked about some laws in countries as exemples. My concern is about people (and a beautiful and cool gamebox), not legality.

[Clovis]

I just finished the 1st part of tutorial. I see its flaws and bugs remain from AACW...
For now the game is promising. I'll play the Red, trying to make lose Red and Whites

So it would be really much more interesting if you post about that rather than pursue your Grenoble General Assembly there RUS is just a game after all.

[Cat Lord]

ERISS, I moved your post about the text in the demo here:

http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?t=19205

Please, help us to improve the thread.

About the discussion here, I think what needed to be said has been said, so I hope nobody would mind, but I am closing this thread.

Cat