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Narwhal
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Pirna event triggering when it makes no sense

Sun Dec 26, 2010 10:39 pm

I am in a PBEM with Baris, as Prussia. I only sieged Pirna with one column, and moved along toward Prag. The Austrian/Saxons broke the siege of Pirna previous turn, and this started moving out of it and sieging one of the Prussian town.

Image

Then, the full Saxon army surrenders and disappears. It is not COMPLETELY a bug, as I still controlled the access to "supply" (Radeberg is under Austrian control, but a cav troop cut the road further down). But really, the Saxon army moving out of Pirna then going for a stroll, and then surrendering makes no sense.

Image

I propose 3 solutions to problem :

- Make the Saxony surrenders event triggers at the beginning of the turn, before the Saxons start moving.
- Lock the Saxons at the end of each turn, so even if they do a battle they don't get "unlocked".
- [My favorite] Get rid of the event as it is right now - just have the Prussian player siege the city the traditional way. The saxony event triggers if the Pirna Camp is taken by Prussian, whenever it is, before 1757.
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Baris
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Wed Dec 29, 2010 12:02 am

Well illustrated Narwal :)

We have to get an agreement about Prussian side not assaulting directly Pirna camp as it would give many experience to Prussian generals and can give severe NM losses to Aus side. In the end it would higly unbalance the conflict.

Before ROP got legacy patched it would be much better to somehow balance or remove the Pirna camp event. If event can not be removed maybe number of men in the Saxon stack in Pirna garison can be lowered to reduce severe penalties Aus side gets when directly assaulted.
Though its my fault to blow my own fort and 25000 men vanish in the air. :D

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lightsfantastic
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Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:44 am

Baris wrote:Well illustrated Narwal :)

We have to get an agreement about Prussian side not assaulting directly Pirna camp as it would give many experience to Prussian generals and can give severe NM losses to Aus side. In the end it would higly unbalance the conflict.

Before ROP got legacy patched it would be much better to somehow balance or remove the Pirna camp event. If event can not be removed maybe number of men in the Saxon stack in Pirna garison can be lowered to reduce severe penalties Aus side gets when directly assaulted.
Though its my fault to blow my own fort and 25000 men vanish in the air. :D


For me in my current game as Prussia vs AI, I besieged Pirna and moved the bulk of my army to Lobositz. The Austrians pushed me back to Pirna and then move on to Pirna to relieve the Saxon garrison. For the two December turns (15 days in each) there where 14 separate battles of Pirna. These while hurting my army decimated the Austro-Saxon force which when fully engaged in the first battle on December 2, numbered about 75K. By the end of the last December turn the Austro-Saxon army was reduced to 33K which promptly surrendered in January and triggered the Saxony event. My National Morale was about 190+ after the battles.

I can only think that the AI was trying to retreat after the first battle but was blocked by my forces from doing so and so it kept trying until it exhausted itself.

AI ranking = Lieutenant
Use all Behaiviors = yes
Activation bonus = no
AI dectect bonus = medium
Aggressiveness = normal
Give AI more time = yes
Activation rule = Can move with penalty
Historical Attrition = both player and AI
Delayed Commitment = Long Delay

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Narwhal
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Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:35 am

That's another problem with Pirna you mention, Baris.
If the Prussian player assault Pirna, he can get more than 20 NM in battle, for limited losses, and captured canon / supplies. Since the Austrian will lose 20 NM, that's a 40 NM gap at the beginning of the game, not counting the experience. This allows the Prussian to be much efficient if he attacks Prag just after.

Baris and I had an house rule against this.

To avoid a NM gap if the Prussian players assault Pirna, there can be a "Prussian soldiers question the wisedom of their generals after they are sent to an useless assault to Pirna" event, giving - 5NM to the Prussian, and a "Austria mobilizes as Frederick is shown to behave like a bloody hakapellite", +10 NM. This would lower the gap in case of assault to circa 25 NM, which is manageable.

Or maybe, just lower the NM for killing Saxon elements to 0 :)

Baris
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Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:36 am

http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?p=197971#post197971

11. Pirna event: Either lowering the number of garrison or the event shouldnt fire. When assaulted directly it gives big NM advantage to Prussia :cool:

It was mentioned to do a wishlist for the remaining bugs in ROP. Pirna event is an important problem that needs a house rule for players to start a pbem. I hope the developers will at least have an answer; positive or negative about the problem if there will be another patch. Otherwise it is unnecessary and worthless to mention any problem came across isn't it ?

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lodilefty
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Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:07 pm

Narwhal wrote:<snip>

Or maybe, just lower the NM for killing Saxon elements to 0 :)


We'll try this in upcoming beta release :)

Leaders being killed will stll give VP though.....

It's easy to switch back..... :blink:
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Room
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Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:26 pm

Hi everyone, I've got a question related to the subject.

In the pbem I'm currently playing, we are early in the game Early december 56 and Prag is about to fall (2 breach before 2turn resolution) and my beaten army can't save it.

And I do not get what I did wrong thought I probably did wrong.

I've lost only one battle that costed me 11 NM and about 20.5k men (including retreat hits) for 11.5k prussians down. This was a mistake I think cause I could have avoid the battle at the cost of losing Prag which I'm gonna loose anyway.
Only one other batlle which I've previously won... with the saxon against a little clolunm of Keith in a 'sortie of Camp Pirma... for the saxon army to dissapear this same turn...

I feel with the current 'saxony capitulation event', the austrian player have no chance to keep Prag which seems wrong.
It allows Prussia to both eliminate the saxon and rush Prag before Austria had any reinforcement or even Van Daun.

The game seems almost over already? I 'd love you to tell me I'm wrong and I still have a chance in this game. I'd hate to give up but I feel really down.

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poweraxe
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Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:30 pm

In my experience, the Austrian alliance has a lot of reinforcements still coming at this point, so I wouldn't give up just yet. Besides, Austria doesn't need to win a lot of battles to win the war, as they not only have many more troops, but can also replace them more easily. As long as you also manage to cause casualties to the Prussians (which you did), you are far from being defeated at this point.

Room
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Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:57 pm

I don't quite see how I m gonna resist in 57 with Prussia still largely ahead in term of power and maneover in the Austrian theater.

57 is when I expect to loose Prag normally. Since the prussians are now hiberning at Prag who fall in DEC late 56, i'll probably loose at least koniztgratz in 57. Maybe Brunn and in the worst event Wien. A lot here will depend on the weather and how long the winter will be. It just started and hopefully it will last very long ^^

If at least I had those 20k+ saxons that broke the siege of Pirma before dissapering, it would have been some trade off for the prussians as I would probably be hiberning them in Leizpig and menacing his rear somehow. Their dissaperance in those conditions just appears silly to me and a gamekiller.

I don't like the idea of giving up but I honestly feel hopeless.

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Narwhal
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Sun Dec 04, 2011 7:25 pm

Hold up, and you won't lose. Austrians reinforcement will get massive.

If you want to train for PBEM, you will have to get used to carry on after a massive defeat :)

Room
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Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:23 pm

Hi Narwal, I've read and loved ur AAR (in which it seems ur opponent gave up).

It's a pbem already. It s my second one and first one went well for me as prussians while I did not even approach Prag before 57 when I took it briefly. In the end my opponent gave up... when Russians died from attrition due to no supply trough Poland. I do not blame him. I find myself in a rather similar situation.


So the terrific prussian start in my current pbem is quite... terrific lol
The frustration is that, for me, it comes from the flaws of the capitulation event.

I'm pretty sure the Austrian army cannot stop the prussian at turn 4-5 when the prag battle happened (no Van daun and no reinforcement yet). All Autrian amy was there about 78k men and 85k prussians for the result of 21.5 killed vs 11.5 prussians down. Bad but not a catastrophe.

However it means Prag is automatically lost. This seems plain wrong to me. It's due to the prussian ability to ignore the saxon army because of the capitulation event. It's the reason I posted here: I broke the siege of Pirma due to the thin colunm my oppennent kept there... and this same turn the saxon army vanish.. lol How can you even find this about right :bonk:

Then from my experience (I admit limited) 57 is favorable to the prussian still and even more where they choose to focus on a particular front. I expect to loose Konitzgrad and then probably Brunn in 57 when I would normally expect to loose Prag and maybe Konitzgratz. I do not think I can come back from this and there was nothing I could do about it.

Again, I would find it OK if I had still the saxon army my opponent choose to ignore. Maybe hiberning in Leizpig :neener:

EDIT: ive jsut realized you are the original poster of this Thread... which an example talking exactly of what happened in my game lol. So you def find this situation not right...
What happend in this pbem against Baris?

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Narwhal
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Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:09 pm

Actually - my intervention was only to say that even if Praag fall you should keep playing as the Austrians :)

I still believe the Pirna event needs some correction.

Room
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Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:57 am

Yeah I don't mind it but for the way it happenned :(
I'm usually very optimist and persistent but getting mauled for 170 turns, hundreds of hours because of a deficient feature is as attractive as Maria Theresa :neener: (yeah I've laught at my own joke so what :P )

The pbem still on but I'm retaining myself to abandon every turn. Nothing happened since and we are in Winter Jan 57.

From now on I won't play the 56 scenarii anymore but the 57 instead. At least till the capitulation event is working better or maybe just removed.


Thx to all that answered me :)

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lodilefty
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Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:35 am

Narwhal wrote:I still believe the Pirna event needs some correction.


Like what?
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Room
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Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:32 pm

It depends how stricly you want the saxon war to be close to the historical one.

The main problem is that Prussia can easily exploit the event and get 'le beurre, l'argent du beurre et la cremiere'.

I think it would be better if the saxon army wasn't locked and the event removed in the case it's too complicated to rework the event.

IMO there is 3 major points to correct:
1) Prussia can let as little as one element sieging Pirma and enjoy the Saxon capitulation while attacking Austria.
2) Assault on Pirma are quite game killer too.
3) Pirma garnison can surrender and Prussia get both the prisonners etc... and the capitulation advantages.


Solution to 1) might be to have a portion of prussian army locked around Pirma till the Saxon capitulate. The inconvenient is that the prussian player cannot anynore ignore the saxon army which I think he should be able to do but with the trade off of having the saxon behind him and not vanished.

Solution to 2) might be to give the saxon generals better defensive attributes to make the prussian manpower cost more important. Make an event that compensate for Austrian nationale morale loses. I found this would be not enough since Prussia will still get supply chariot and guns and experience but I cannot think of anything else.

3) Might be corrected by making Pirma never surrending but in case of the saxon capitulation.

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lodilefty
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Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:43 pm

Room wrote:It depends how stricly you want the saxon war to be close to the historical one.

The main problem is that Prussia can easily exploit the event and get 'le beurre, l'argent du beurre et la cremiere'.

I think it would be better if the saxon army wasn't locked and the event removed in the case it's too complicated to rework the event.

IMO there is 3 major points to correct:
1) Prussia can let as little as one element sieging Pirma and enjoy the Saxon capitulation while attacking Austria.
2) Assault on Pirma are quite game killer too.
3) Pirma garnison can surrender and Prussia get both the prisonners etc... and the capitulation advantages.


Solution to 1) might be to have a portion of prussian army locked around Pirma till the Saxon capitulate. The inconvenient is that the prussian player cannot anynore ignore the saxon army which I think he should be able to do but with the trade off of having the saxon behind him and not vanished.

Solution to 2) might be to give the saxon generals better defensive attributes to make the prussian manpower cost more important. Make an event that compensate for Austrian nationale morale loses. I found this would be not enough since Prussia will still get supply chariot and guns and experience but I cannot think of anything else.

3) Might be corrected by making Pirma never surrending but in case of the saxon capitulation.


At last beta patch, the capitulation should give much less NM change, as most of the Saxon units have reduced NM loss upon destruction.

It will not be me that radically changes this event. The design team wanted it in, and in it stays until designer says so. I'll discuss this off line with him. :)
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