Koeniggratz

[Sav]

I have had Rise of Prussia for just over a week now and I am so impressed with what has been done in terms of accuracy of both geography and orders of battle. Its a great game and I hope to see its scope expand to include multi-player and other campaigns. Its potential is great.

However I have a quibble about the status of Koeniggratz. In ROP it is shown as having a fortress level of 2. That rating would be correct from 1764onwards when the fortifications of Koeniggratz were built, but during the Seven Years war it was no more fortified than Kolin.

But such a great game.

[Florent]

I think this fortress was increased to level 2 after the Austrian War of Succession because it fall to easily(at least 2 times). It's one level below Olmütz which is the newest austrian Fortress in the 7YW at level 3.

[caranorn]

I've only looked at various language Wikipedia articles. But they all seem to agree that a major fortification effort took place after the 7 Years War and that the town had suffered a lot during the war. But obviously there had been fortifications in place before. Maybe this place should only be a level 1?

[Nikel]

According to Christopher Duffy in his book on siege warfare, the fortification of the town of Koniggratz started in 1766


Edit: however Szabo refers to the fortified city of Koniggraetz

[Sol Invictus]

I believe it was simply a depot during the SYW. It was probably lightly fortified but more like a fortified camp than a true fortress.

[PhilThib]

So it seems every one agrees that Koeniggratz is reduced to level 1 at least

[Panzeh]

A change to Koeniggratz would really change the campaign dynamic around Prague. It would really light a fire under the Austrian player's ass to keep Fredrick from taking it and being able to winter there.

[Generalisimo]

A change to Koeniggratz would really change the campaign dynamic around Prague. It would really light a fire under the Austrian player's ass to keep Fredrick from taking it and being able to winter there.

I was thinking exactly the same...

[Moogel]

Can you still winter in captured cities. Previous patches allowed me to take Prag and winter there. But with 1.01i it doesnt produce enough supplies for the troops. I tried even running used supply wagons to dresden to fill up and back to Prag, but dont have enough wagons or boats for that. When spring comes troops are in no fighting condition.

[PhilThib]

There are no changes about that. But, true, wintering in a city taken from the enemy and not connected to your depot networks is going to be risky at best if you do not carry enough wagons with you...you'd better build a depot somewhere bewteen Prag and Dresden to supply your troops (e.g. at Lobositz)

[caranorn]

There are no changes about that. But, true, wintering in a city taken from the enemy and not connected to your depot networks is going to be risky at best if you do not carry enough wagons with you...you'd better build a depot somewhere bewteen Prag and Dresden to supply your troops (e.g. at Lobositz)

Wouldn't Prague be resupplied from Dresden via the Elbe? Even during winter...

[PhilThib]

Now it should, yes, unless some Austrian guns block the river somewhere along the way

[Moogel]

I tried building depot in lobositz but that didnt help much. Before winter was over i had to pull everybody back to dresden because lack supplies. In previous versions i was able to keep my troops in Prag and be ready to fight first thing.

Edit: I restored few turns backwards and noticed that prag isn't receiving any supplies or ammo. Lobositz depot gets 470 and sends 370 supplies. Dresden is sending over 1300. These are about same for two last turns. Now Prag is pillaged, that affects its supply production how much and does it affect provinces ability to receive supplies ?

And im sorry to hijack this thread.

[rogs]

. . . it was no more fortified than Kolin . . .

this is not correct

kolin was unfortified

koniggratz was a royal fortress from the 1400s, thats what the name means

"Fortified in the 14th century, Hradec Králové became associated with Elisabeth of Poland, the queen dowager (Králové means “of the queen”) . . . "

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/273639/Hradec-Kralove

there is a reference to koniggratz' fortifications during the hussite wars

"It was done ; the barbarous impulses of the soldiers were gratified, and the light of the burning village showed their way to the walls of Koniggratz . . . "

from "Heroes of Bohemia: Huss, Jerome and Zisca", Google Books

The town was an important Hussite and Catholic centre and the focus of significant construction during the 16th and 17th centuries; indicating that the walls would have been kept in good order, probably improved, during this period

http://www.travel.cz/guide/70/index_en.html

I would suggest that Koniggratz remain a level 2 fort

[PhilThib]

Apart from endless discussions on historicity, the current design decision is to keep it Level 2, in order to avoid unbalancing the Austrian situation; which is severly handicapped at game start and would probably be doomed if this fortress is gone

[Nikel]

rogs is clearly pro-austrian

Just kidding of course


Another reference that supports Duffy's statement. The fortress was ready for the War of Bavarian Succession, and so posterior to the SYW


http://books.google.es/books?id=neUKEvaYPZYC&pg=PA130&lpg=PA130&dq=%22fortress+of+koniggratz%22+-1866&source=bl&ots=7DFYr3ZSTt&sig=epX2fCzkQ4CoT13Osj6giBQjcnU&hl=es&ei=LgmqS_esDI2z4gbHjoiSBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAQ

[rogs]

Nikel, yes, Josef II built a fortress at koniggratz after the SYW; his fortress would have to be a level 3 or better in ROP terms surely? In fact Josef's koniggratz fortress held out against the Prussians in 1866, along with Theresienstadt and Josefstadt.

I was addressing the OP's claim that the town was unfortified prior to 1764-6; clearly it was a fortress from the 1400s and as a important political and religious centre kept in good repair thereafter.

And yes others can argue for the Prussians, not me.

[Nikel]

In the boardgame Clash of Monarchs is not fortified, what means nothing of course


[ATTACH]10740[/ATTACH]


Full map

http://www.gmtgames.com/clashmonarchs/CoMMapFinal.pdf

[caranorn]

In the boardgame Clash of Monarchs is not fortified, what means nothing of course


Full map

http://www.gmtgames.com/clashmonarchs/CoMMapFinal.pdf

Looking at the fll map I have to agree that it means nothing. They give Luxembourg no fortifications while it was a major place (would be level 2 if not 3 Fortress in RoP) at that time...

[rogs]

and they show koeniggratz on the wrong side of the river . . .

another element to take into account is koeniggratz' natural defences; it occupies the angle between two rivers, the elbe and the orlice, which means it can only be attacked from one direction.

this is easily checked on google maps.

[Generalisimo]

In the boardgame Clash of Monarchs is not fortified, what means nothing of course

Well, really... it doesn't... or you will tell me that for a WWII game we should use the Hearts of Iron map?

[Nikel]

No of course, it was just an excuse to post the map of the boardgame, that looks very good


In another one, Friedrich, there is even no fortress nor sieges, the squares represent objectives.


Sorry huge map, if the is a problem remove it






For a WWII map? Now that AGEod is Paradox France, and with so many HoIs I hope that AGEod develops a few more rare conflicts before a WW2 one

[rogs]

the borders between the reich states allied to prussia and those allied to austria are different from those in ROP

i tried to find a corroborating source, for either map, the only one i could find is the penguin atlas of world history vol1 (originally published in west germany in 1964, my edition is the 1978 english revision) it says that the map you post is closer to historical than the ROP one

according to the source quoted above, in ROP the size of hesse-kassel is exaggerated, lippstadt should not be a prussian-allied hessian fortress nor dortmund a hanoverian city, both should be under the control of habsburg-aligned reich states. in addition, there should a strip of imperialist-allied reich territory separating wesel from minden (both prussian) extending from the rhine to the heligoland bight. east frisia is a prussian ally and oldenburg an imperialist one.

thanks for prompting this investigation nikel.

[caranorn]

I did some quick research concerning Dortmund and Lippstadt. Dortmund indeed seems to have been a Free Imperial City, though it also seems to have been predominantly Protestant, so I'm not sure about its status during the 7YW. Lippstadt on the other hand had a Prussian garrison at the start of the 7YW, so in RoP it should either be Prussian, or at least part of the Prussian alliance...