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Pocus
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New PON public beta patch

Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:20 am

Dear players,

A new public beta patch has been released. Please give it a try (only available from here, not from Steam, although it is possible to install it manually on steam).

We are trying to render this patch official as soon as possible now!

http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?38402
Image


Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."

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Random
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Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:07 pm

Excellent!

Thank you!

-C

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HerrDan
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Sun Jul 19, 2015 8:41 pm

Great! I'll test it very soon!
Thank you very much!

:)
"Das Glück hilft dem Kühnen."

German Empire PON 1880 AAR:http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?35152-German-Empire-not-quite-an-AAR

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Lemoni
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Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:20 am

Dear Pocus ,
Have a nice holiday, try to rest and when you come back bring new ideas and new excellent games and new patches and and and...

V for Vegas
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Tue Jul 21, 2015 2:15 pm

Nice work Pocus.

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loki100
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Thu Jul 23, 2015 2:18 pm

just done a very simple test Jan-Nov 1850 as Prussia, no interventions, just pressed end turn. Took me 40 mins, I think the last time I tried that sort of test was on an older laptop but took around 80 mins.

no problems, map scrolling seemed much smoother.

thank you
AJE The Hero, The Traitor and The Barbarian
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Carnium
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Thu Jul 23, 2015 4:50 pm

Wow this game is still alive - time for a re-install. Great stuff :thumbsup:

Scipionminos
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Thu Jul 23, 2015 5:18 pm

Yessssssssss !!!

bwiser
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Sat Jul 25, 2015 7:58 pm

This is indeed great news!
I have a question regarding the AI Germany and Italy unification event chains, which used to be a bit buggy. Have these been improved in the recent patching, or the event chains by Loki and / or Christophe / or HerrDan been included ?

I would love to start a new 1850 game with France soon and would like to see the probable forming of Italy or Germany, i.e. also help Italy in their fight for freedom against the KuK empire :) )

Sorry - if I oversaw a patch note in this regard

vaalen
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Sun Jul 26, 2015 5:09 pm

bwiser wrote:This is indeed great news!
I have a question regarding the AI Germany and Italy unification event chains, which used to be a bit buggy. Have these been improved in the recent patching, or the event chains by Loki and / or Christophe / or HerrDan been included ?

I would love to start a new 1850 game with France soon and would like to see the probable forming of Italy or Germany, i.e. also help Italy in their fight for freedom against the KuK empire :) )

Sorry - if I oversaw a patch note in this regard


I would really like to know this - currently, the failure of the AI to form Germany and Italy is one of the biggest flaws in this still magnificent game.

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Franciscus
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Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:34 pm

Not played, but it seems the answer is no. The German and Italian unification events after patching are still dated 2011...
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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Lemoni
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Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:26 pm

Franciscus wrote:Not played, but it seems the answer is no. The German and Italian unification events after patching are still dated 2011...


As I posted in another thread I am playing as Holland using PON-PAN mod 1.04 rc5 . I am in 1868 ,Italy has formed , North Germany has formed and the game runs smoothly 3-4 min turn in a 4 years old PC.

bwiser
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Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:48 am

Great to read that. Another question I have: Is this a full comprehensive patch as I intend to do a clean install on my new computer with the first version when PON was released?

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ERISS
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Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:39 am

bwiser wrote:Is this a full comprehensive patch
as I intend to do a clean install with the first version when PON was released?

Yes. Don't forget to install your DLCs/scenarios before the patch.
Pocus wrote: latest public beta patch 1.04.
This patch should be comprehensive,
but be on the lookout for missing things, as the last release candidate dates some months already.
Pride of Nations, Vainglory of Empire Updates (1.04)
Release Date: Sometime in summer 2015
How to update your game:

This patch is a comprehensive patch. It can upgrade to latest version any previous version of PON.
This patch is save-compatible.

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loki100
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Tue Jul 28, 2015 7:38 pm

ERISS wrote:Yes. Don't forget to install your DLCs/scenarios before the patch.


no need, just install the patch and then add your dlcs. That was an old problem that cropped up with some of the very early patches.
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vaalen
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Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:15 am

Lemoni wrote:As I posted in another thread I am playing as Holland using PON-PAN mod 1.04 rc5 . I am in 1868 ,Italy has formed , North Germany has formed and the game runs smoothly 3-4 min turn in a 4 years old PC.


It is not working in vanilla, though it is working in the mod you are playing. I reached 1879 as France, using the patch just before the latest one. Germany and Italy never formed. Prussia never fought Austria or Denmark.

It would seem advisable to fix this before there is a final patch. My question is, was it fixed in this current version?

ifailmore
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Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:37 am

Where can i get this PON-PAN mod? I cant find it anywhere

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loki100
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Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:20 pm

vaalen wrote:It is not working in vanilla, though it is working in the mod you are playing. I reached 1879 as France, using the patch just before the latest one. Germany and Italy never formed. Prussia never fought Austria or Denmark.

It would seem advisable to fix this before there is a final patch. My question is, was it fixed in this current version?


it *can* happen in vanilla but both event chains have a flaw. The German one is about the AI and the Prussian-Danish war, the problem is winning this war is essential to trigger a province transfer that is then needed to trigger the Franco-Prussian war chain. Italy has a problem with the Garibaldi event and how the secondary event chain works (for the AI).

What goes into the official patch is purely the choice of the Phils, at the moment they have incorporated revisions to China (from Christophe) that makes the late game colonial carve up more interesting, Japan (again it will make a late game AI Japan quite a threat to Russia) and some of the Russia events. In addition a simplification of the Crimean events that should lead to a historical war between UK/France and Russia if Russia pressurises Turkey.

Some of Christophe's ideas either change the game concepts (so I can understand their reluctance) or rely on other changes to the game engine (in particular trying to bring about a more dynamic diplomatic system), so again maybe better material for a mod than an official patch.

Depending on what goes into the final patch, I'll see if I can put together two different event blocks. One set will seek to make the chains work, the other, drawn from Christophe's work should be seen as more of a mod than simply fixing what is there.
AJE The Hero, The Traitor and The Barbarian
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bwiser
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Thu Jul 30, 2015 1:05 am

loki100 wrote:it *can* happen in vanilla but both event chains have a flaw. The German one is about the AI and the Prussian-Danish war, the problem is winning this war is essential to trigger a province transfer that is then needed to trigger the Franco-Prussian war chain. Italy has a problem with the Garibaldi event and how the secondary event chain works (for the AI).

What goes into the official patch is purely the choice of the Phils, at the moment they have incorporated revisions to China (from Christophe) that makes the late game colonial carve up more interesting, Japan (again it will make a late game AI Japan quite a threat to Russia) and some of the Russia events. In addition a simplification of the Crimean events that should lead to a historical war between UK/France and Russia if Russia pressurises Turkey.

Some of Christophe's ideas either change the game concepts (so I can understand their reluctance) or rely on other changes to the game engine (in particular trying to bring about a more dynamic diplomatic system), so again maybe better material for a mod than an official patch.

Depending on what goes into the final patch, I'll see if I can put together two different event blocks. One set will seek to make the chains work, the other, drawn from Christophe's work should be seen as more of a mod than simply fixing what is there.


Loki: That sounds great !! in the mean time - would you advise to use your Germany and Italy unification scripts ?

vaalen
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Thu Jul 30, 2015 1:32 am

Thank you for the explanation, Loki. The flaws in the event chains are serious enough that I have never seen the AI form Germany or Italy, and I have played a lot of PON as other nations.

I am very grateful that you are considering fixing the unification event chains, if the final patch does not contain a fix.

Thanks again for your invaluable support for this magnificent game.

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loki100
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Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:57 am

bwiser wrote:Loki: That sounds great !! in the mean time - would you advise to use your Germany and Italy unification scripts ?


yes, to Italy, you can either retain or delete the potential civil war I added to spice things up - at the worst the AI will now fully exploit the alternative chain.

For German unification the key problem is actually how the AI manages the Duchies crisis. Germany gaining Schleswig and Holstein is a precondition for a later key event in the Franco-Prussian chain. The AI tends not to do this. So there are two fixes and one better solution. The simplest is to give the provinces to an AI Germany as part of that crisis (this doesn't affect any other player controlled power so it seems pragmatic to help the AI on), an alternative is to remove the condition from the F-P chain. The best is to code the AI so it persues its goals with more effect.

Thats why this isn't just event fixing, the latter is clearly the better solution, but it depends on what AI improvements can be coded.

I don't have the Schleswig event as a simple text file at the moment (its coded in the spreadsheets) but I can work it up once the (final?) patch is released and people can use it. For the moment, all you need to do is once the Duchies crisis is over, run a script to give an AI Prussia those two provinces.
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Christophe.Barot
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Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:58 pm

loki100 wrote:Some of Christophe's ideas either change the game concepts (so I can understand their reluctance) or rely on other changes to the game engine (in particular trying to bring about a more dynamic diplomatic system), so again maybe better material for a mod than an official patch.


Hi Loki
actually, I did not totally dropped the diplomatic/strategic AI improving of PON, which is seriously wanting in this field (none of this is criticism, a monster game required too much involvment/work in the other fields to get the game out in the time limits, and even super heroes have to sleep sometimes) - even if I had a severe case of blues (loss of hope combined to burn out) when I realized we still were on our own for s quite some time ... :blink:

actually I will test basic mechanisms of diplomacy with Calvinus future card driven 19th century boardgame I'll take part to build - I guess Calvinus, like myself, want simpple and "natural /logical" mechanisms - those I have in mind since ... 1990 or so, when I dreamt of this game with Philippe Thjibaut, "A place in the sun" was supposed to be a boardgame then

IF those ideas are retained, and are proven valid (or other SIMPLE mechanisms, if they are proven invalid) THEN I guess we'll be able to import and adapt them into PON - it's easier when you don't have scores of areas and economic factors to manage (and bugs to correct)

basically it should be :
- goal-driven (none of this sandbox, so goal personalized for nations, identified areas) - Austria can't colonize but cares about german and Italian states, then only for Balkans and internal stability, Russia has a trade off between reforms and strenth (military+economic) on one side, Ideology (autocracy) on the other side, then a question of balancing VP to gain for not reforming with game advantages .. Englmand, conversely, and so on ...
- therefore natural allies and enemies should derive easily from situation (when you have Milan in competition with habsburg and venice and Calais in English hands, you quickly understand the Turk isn't your enemy, and meddling with Portuguese is a loss of time, when you want to unify your nation, conquer designed colonies with identified competitors, rule the seas, get or reclaim national provinces, get specific alliances (a simplification of economic/strategic interest no need to make AI compute than Italy must side with britain cause coal and blockade and colonies, Italy will support Britain, would it be versus Russia, period !) or influence given minors (Austria and - therefore, with cards, specific crisis with specific reasons, easy to read, understand, and using game natural concepts - morale-stake-alliances-militay strength-diplomatic value) limited to historical plausible reasons (we won't make scores of cards) with spcecific crisis/revolts (irredentism/ colonial unrest)
lots of simple mechansisms, in my head, easy with few units, areas, factors ...

presently, PON :

- Isn't reactive enough - you can attack Bavaria, Austria won't move, ditto, a crisis between Guatemala and Britain leaves the USA indifferent ... and a badboy wouldn't be the solution

- Snowballs - there just isn't enough corrective mechanisms (the little badboy there is is just a way to make mega alliances more difficult, but with unwanted effects (Serbia dislikes Russia if Russia is too powerful, if Italy loves france, she'll never like Prussia and ally her ...even against Austria)

- Crisis module isn't what it should be, for many reasons - and acts not as a severe trade off enforcement, but like a VP randomizer. difficult to redo it from scratch, it's a disconnected game in the game, different inputs to begin with ...

- alliances and peace system out of the scope (separate peaces causing alliances to break, alliances war ùmechanisms not really satisfying, allies fight separate wars, even operationally)

- there is no AI "strategic thinking", no great power planning according to what other powers do, bad relations provoke forever repetitive crisis just like badboy did in Paradox games - powers pursue their goals in parallel (and 80% of VP come from industrialization anyway)

- all this can be adressed but huge/numerous factors and intricacies in the game make it difficult to correct simply - plus it is very time consuming

so I guess it will perhaps be simpler to build a theoretical model( VP, mechanisms, crisis, interests), experiment and tune it, and THEN to (try to) adapt it to the hugely complex PON - at least I hope !

If it can be done anyway, Calvinus, Philthib and pocus will know real time ...

not tomorrow still

thanks for your outstanding job, Loki

(and agree, Unfortunately, Egypt and persia were not treated like Morocco or Tunisia - still somehow formally independant for some time at least for Morroco - which deprives us from correct flow for Mahdi, Gordon, Kitchener, fashoda, but it would require lots of changes, structural)

cheers

Christophe
[color="#FF0000"]- (ordnance) Your Lordship, sorry to awake you, but The french are at our door !

- Alarm, alarm, how did you let this happen and not awake me ! repel them, counterattack at once !

- err, your Lordship, ahem... French are our allies, Marshal de St Arnaud is expected to attend to a conference with you !

- ahem, well, .... very well ..let them in !

(charge of the light brigade movie)
[/color]

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Lemoni
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Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:03 pm

vaalen wrote:It is not working in vanilla, though it is working in the mod you are playing. I reached 1879 as France, using the patch just before the latest one. Germany and Italy never formed. Prussia never fought Austria or Denmark.

It would seem advisable to fix this before there is a final patch. My question is, was it fixed in this current version?


It is vanilla! The PON-PAN mod is a simple trick to play as any Nation.It is like change faction or switch faction but it always works fine ( I ve played as Portugal ,as Sweden and as Holland). The only drawback is that you don t have missions and decrees as the original playable nations but if you choose correct ( i.e .not playing as Peru or Tuscany) it is fun.You have Rulers, Prime Ministers,Generals and Admirals ,the diplomacy matrix works etc. This fact shows how well and how deep designed is PON.
My only question is why some people when they play a title like PON or Paradox's EU or ViIC insist so much the game to be historical. It is not a movie. It is a game! If we went back in time
things would be different.So we play a different version of history!

vaalen
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Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:03 pm

Problem with patches

I recently got a new computer, after my old one died, and installed AJE, BOR, and TOR on it.

I patched AJE to 1.03, THEN 1.04. The installation programs said the installation was successful, and both patches are in the patch file when you look at the games folder.
However, when I load the game, the first screen tells me the game is version 1.03. And the only scenarios I can load are from AJE.
I installed BOR and patch 1.04 for BOR. No problem, the loading screen confirms that it is 1.04. But I can only load the scenarios from AJE and BOR, even though TOR is installed.
I installed TOR, and patched it through the updater. The installation of patch 1.01 was confirmed by the installer, and the patch shows in the patch section of the game folder.
Yet when I load the game, the first screen says I have version 1.00, not 1.01. And I can only load scenarios from TOR.
It is not at all clear that the other features of the patches that do not show up on the loading screen are working. The advanced zoom level appears to work only on BOR.
Any help you can give me will be very much appreciated. When I had the games on my old computer, none of these problems showed up.
My old computer was windows seven, the new one is windows 8.1.

vaalen
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Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:08 pm

If you are playing a mod, it is not vanilla.
In vanilla, I have reached the point over a dozen times where Germany and Italy should have formed, but they never did. The Austro Prussian, Danish, and Franco Prussian wars were never fought by the AI.
Loki explained the problems with the event chains, and they need fixing.
This has nothing to do with making history the same, and your speculation on my motivation is simply incorrect.

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