Largest Army mission

[Justus2]

I am just starting out on this game (a few 'trial runs' of a few months in so far), and have a question on the missions that I receive in the first couple of turns (playing as Prussia). The first mission is to have the Largest Army in Western Europe. I searched and found several threads that talk about the reporting aspects being bugged, but I have a couple questions on what actually counts toward mission success:

1. How does it count the 'largest army'? It mentions a minimum of 200 regiments, are only Infantry/Cavalry regiments counted, or does every element (Artillery, engineers, etc) count. Does all infantry count (ie garrison/militia as well)?

2. It specifically excludes Russia, but is the UK included? Does it only count regiments in Europe, or do their overseas elements count as well?

(I opened each power to get an idea of what they start with, UK starts with nearly 300 infantry/cavalry, but an additional 165 Indian regiments, how could Prussia ever overtake them? France also starts with over 300, and an additional 300 artillery, and yet it seems they get the mission for the 2nd largest army? Austria starts with 114, plus 120 Hungarian and 6 Polish, for 240 regiments of Inf/Cav). Prussia starts with 154 Inf/Cav, and 111 Art (counting by the elements from tooltips on the F3 replacements screen).

The other misison (Chemical/Dyes) seems more straight-forward, although again UK has a huge lead, 46, to Prussia's 15 (EDIT: actually 55 to 31, I wasn't counting the ones from craftsmen, I assume they are included), but since a couple dye resources appear at the same turn, it seems it is at least within reach.

Appreciate any clarifications anyone can offer.

[loki100]

here's my guess. Its opaque and I suspect its based on power not numbers. So filling up with loads of militia won't do you good but on the other hand it means that all land based units will count towards the score.

So if you are going for it then artillery and guards corps are your friends rather than raw number of elements or notional manpower under arms.

I think the power reported on the F10 (progress etc) screen includes naval power so its all a bit confusing.

For what its worth, i'd treat this as good advice rather than a realistic goal. With Prussia, you are going to need a large and competent army regardless of the mission so success or otherwise in having the 'largest' is a wee bit seconday.

Same with chemicals, you are going to need an industry aligned to supporting your bid for power in Europe, chemicals are a good basis, not least it often becomes a bit of a shortage good on the international markets

[sagji]

It is the number of land elements (doesn't matter what they are even generals count as 1 element) in Western Europe - this includes the UK.
It is troops in the region not troops of nations in the region - so only UK base elements count for the UK.

Short of looking at the script log file of the turn it was checked there is no way to see your progress.

[Justus2]

Thanks, that helps make it seem more within reach. Not sure I want to take the time to count all those elements to see what is IN France or UK, but at least it isn't all of them!

[Q-Kee]

I understand that you can never know if you have reached the goal of having the greatest army or the greatest production until you get a report after 10 years saying "congrats + 500 PP" or "you so sucked"?

For other numbers, is there a way to find out f.ex. what tariff levels the other nations have? Manual says if I set tariffs, others will "retaliate" - I would love to see how and to what extent, and what the average tariff is so I can set my own based on that average.

[loki100]

I understand that you can never know if you have reached the goal of having the greatest army or the greatest production until you get a report after 10 years saying "congrats + 500 PP" or "you so sucked"?

For other numbers, is there a way to find out f.ex. what tariff levels the other nations have? Manual says if I set tariffs, others will "retaliate" - I would love to see how and to what extent, and what the average tariff is so I can set my own based on that average.

low tariffs will improve relations, making it easier over time to gain commercial agreements and state visits. High tends to lower these relations. My instinct is the key numbers are about under 20%, over 40% with the range in between sort of neutral. In addition, again this is a guess but I think its right, the chances of a diplomatic dispute over unfair commercial dealings increases (but then this is a small increase on an already small likelihood).

[Kensai]

I think I recall that by regiments it counts strictly elements, not units or combined estimated power. Actually Prussia can pretty much beat the UK in land army, as the many of the British forces are ships. The F10 won't help much into comparing nations but it is safe to say that for land armies you can expect that the biggest one will be Russian (so it's good they are excluded from the competition) and navies is the British.

[Q-Kee]

Thanks guys! I'm atm reading you AAR, loki, thanks for taking so much time to compose it.

I will simply accept that all AGEOD games have their mysteries at which one can only guess.

[epaminondas]

Can't add much, but I know that when I built a bundle (a really big bundle) of fortress troops I got a mission accomplished message.

[Kensai]

By definition, elements are regiments or battalions. Units can be brigades, divisions, or corps. Stacks can be brigades, divisions, corps, armies, army groups. If you have a chemistry background think of it as atoms comprising a molecule. Some molecules exist only by combining certain atoms.

[Christophe.Barot]

I confirm all that has been told there, an additional piece of enlightment too :

the largest army (Russian, unbeatable at start of game, and britain, as is colonial - excluded) may seem at hand for a Prussian, but it is not so easy

competitors are France and Austria - but they have big armies at start AND Prussia initial recruitment basis - based on population - is very tiny at start of game

you can hope one or the other of their armies melt by fight, but unless both do objective is beyond reach - in my game French Army melt in Ukraine during the Crimean war (could follow that by F10 and Ukrainian province in French hands) - France never recovered - but in spîte of cautious progressive build (I built corps one by one as soon as accumulation of troops and especially officers allowed while leaving enough for maintenance, to optimize recruitment), I just came close of Austria before they mobilized (and crushed franco piemontese) and then they had double ...

I couldn't catch with them before 1867 - just in time but then regional decisions gave me north German federation without a fight and fighting Austria without need for NGF to ally with them again after was pointless, so I patiently waited for 1870 and went to the throat of the gallic hubris - with NGF Prussia may enjoy a 2:1 numerical advantage when war breaks, and then, with Moltke and powerful army, it's absolutely easy (Paris fell after a looong siege though, with France offering Reunion and either Alsace or Lorraine, but never never both of them)

so I never could fulfill the mission, and nobody else could have

morals : missions are indicators of the way you should take, but not a determining factor in winning the game

ditto for chemicals, a strong export article for Germans, but which was not a priority in industrializing then in my game (I had more pressing needs, especially in the coal/metallurgy/mechanical parts/manufactured goods area, and the textile industry was WAY more profitable then.

[Q-Kee]

Dear all, sorry but I have a real load of questions piling up. I swear, I have read (most) of the threads I though might contain useful information, but still my desire for further enlightenment is great so if anyone can be bothered to answer those questions I'd be immensly grateful - beware, I WILL edit later and insert the questions I forgot just now!

1. What use is it to enlarge a fort, besides the fort then producing 4 more supply? Does it give the attacker more frontage and does it weaken the defender by stretching his lines?
2. Do supply wagons not draw supply from depots over some distance as in AACW? Mine keep running out only 2 regions distant, with 95% control of those regions. And do merchant fleets distribute suppy via the sea trade boxes?
3. Anyone played the Austrians, do the ever get more generals or will they have to make do what is there and hope to at least replace generals who die of old age during those 70 years? Reason I ask is because I could promote a 2* but do not really need another 3*, would be more useful to still have him leading a corps. It seems impossible though to have a 3* lead a corps...
4. There is a thread that says "possibly" the most senior 3* in an AO is the chief guy. Nearly all of the area I have my armies in is one AO only, so do I lose all the nice special abilities of the other 3*s?
5. How can I determine of which army a corps is a corps, or does that not matter (for MTSG) in this game? Do not get corps commanders get any bonus from their army commander since their values do not seem to be affected? Do any bonuses apply at all besides those of the stack's leader?

[loki100]

to try and answer

1 - the gain is in terms of the number of hits before the walls are breached (so it will last more under siege) and if the garrison auto-spawns (this will happen if it is under siege) then the larger the fort, the larger the garrison. If the enemy gambles on an attack with no breach this can cause massive losses
2 - PoN has supply push from depot to depot as well as the production of local supply. So that often is all you need, IF, you own (or have captured) the province. You need supply wagons if you are in enemy territory (or can't trace a line back) and these will run out and need to be sent back to a supply source to refill. As such supply wagons don't draw supply, merely move it. Yes to merchant ships, so any port will take in supply if you have them in the sea area and that supply can then be pushed inland. If you have a continuous chain of merchant ships you can push supply across the oceeans.
3 - all the powers have a lack of commanders, also they 'retire' over time and so on. You just have to work with it and treat some of your formations as 'reserves'. A corps with no commander can still fight against weak enemies but the -35% will affect its overall combat power (not least the rate of fire drops by 1)
4 - CinC is less important in PoN than AACW/RoP, in part as PoN uses the simple model of army organising (similar to WiA), so its a case of commanders give CPs (as do signals etc), load it up with corps etc and it fights as a unit.
5 - use the theatre map filter and you'll see what provinces are in a theatre. In turn everything in that theatre belongs to that CinC. Some CinC bonuses do go out to all stack commanders but, as above, its not a vital part to PoN (I'm more used to RoP than AACW and there it is a critical part of fighting an effective war). MTSG happens within theatre, its a bit more liberal in PoN (ie units in different stances may support each other) and more reliable.

[Q-Kee]

Whoa, did neither expect such a quick nor such a good information! So I'll exploit this

My defensive ally, Mother Russia, has come under attack, not through a crisis but through a provoked short-term CB. I did not get a CB against the agressor now, do I only get it if it is a "serious" war? I seem not to be expected to join in, my relationship is still the same.

ad 5., so even 2 armies would MTSG as long as they are adjacent and in the same theatre? Very handy!

[Kensai]

All what loki100 said was right, let me add the following observations:

1. For some the auto-spawning garrisons is a feature, for others a bug. Especially when they can autoreplenish each turn. I personally like this, cause it makes attacks more challenging. Never assault a city unless you have enough good quality troops (at least 2:1 ratio to defenders) and artillery (which fires first in a battle). Breaches are imperative to crack open the best fortresses. Breaches come faster if you have siege (howitzers) artillery in your forces. Take your time. If your army is powerful enough the defenders might even decide to surrender without a shot fired. Port cities need to be blockaded from sea as well in order to choke them out of supplies. When out of supplies, the probability to surrender is even higher.
2. Technically, as soon as you have 50% military control of the region your supplies will pass. The same happens obviously for the enemy. You can own the region but have no MC and vice versa. MC is what matters for supplies propagation and reconnaissance.
3. Unfortunately, the developers and beta testers did not catch a major issue regarding leader pools. According to some DB files, every 10 years or so their numbers should go up. The leaders for minor nations have been erroneously set to 0, meaning that when the first batch of leaders dies or retires, they will not get more, even if the DB is full of potential candidates.
4. Remember that CinC are also in the sea. Unfortunately you have to read manually which the sea theaters are from the Areas file in the game folder.
5. Be careful with the "follow me" command. The army corps and armies are not tightly tied like ROP, but to march to the sound of guns you need to be careful how you set up your armies. Remember NOT to add slow or locked units as it will negate that ability per definition.

[cwegsche]

Hi guys thought I catch up with the discussion as I have a question too:

What's the point in enlarging harbors and coaling stations? When I do this an the work is done, the level of the harbor/coaling station doesen't go up, it stays the level it has been before! Do I have to make this more often? Have tried to do it twice but still the level of the harbor doesen't change ...
Going further, what's the difference between coaling tations and harbors?

Thx Chris

[Kensai]

The number should go up if you extend it. An upgrade will mean it will go up the chain to the most advanced structure. A higher number means faster work and higher production of supplies. A coaling station will provide coal to your coal-fired ships, but no repairs. In all structures (even the small anchorage) you can drop anchor to regain cohesion. From harbor and up you can build ships.

More here.

[loki100]

Whoa, did neither expect such a quick nor such a good information! So I'll exploit this

My defensive ally, Mother Russia, has come under attack, not through a crisis but through a provoked short-term CB. I did not get a CB against the agressor now, do I only get it if it is a "serious" war? I seem not to be expected to join in, my relationship is still the same.

ad 5., so even 2 armies would MTSG as long as they are adjacent and in the same theatre? Very handy!

I'm not sure why some wars trigger an expectation you will join and others don't. In the case of wars started by script, this doesn't happen. In general you only seem to be expected to respond if one side has actually issued a DOW by in-game decision.

With MTSG yes and in my experience it happens more reliably in PoN than other games, but it can still fail you. Seems a little bit less reliable if one force has an inactive leader and possibly if a river crossing is involved. Also unlike RoP, the reacting army moves into the province (and indeed can be retreated to somewhere else), so it can make a mess of your overall defences (I've just seen this happen)

Hi guys thought I catch up with the discussion as I have a question too:

What's the point in enlarging harbors and coaling stations? When I do this an the work is done, the level of the harbor/coaling station doesen't go up, it stays the level it has been before! Do I have to make this more often? Have tried to do it twice but still the level of the harbor doesen't change ...
Going further, what's the difference between coaling tations and harbors?

Thx Chris

Coaling stations basically have two levels. The gain to the second is minimal as both produce 4 supply locally but I think the larger one is helpful for supply push.

A harbour allows naval repair, generates and transmits more supply and allows the subsequent construction of a naval base.

Coaling stations are cheap and require little Colonial Penetration (a little bit more than an anchorage). Early game you will want a number of them so your slow moving fleets can rest and regain organisation. Harbours according to level, determine the effectiveness of supply push to/from your home country (merchant ships also play a role here). Equally they allow you to base a naval force more permanently in a region as the ships will repair there. You don't really need both in every province but you do need them scattered around your empire.

As an eg, in my game over time I now have a large harbour in modern day Nigeria, one in Mozambique, one in Kenya and one in the Red Sea area. That gives me a lot of flexibility in terms of troop movement and naval deployments around my African empire.

[Jim-NC]

Regarding #3, if you promote a 2** leader to 3***, the game will search for a new 2** replacement for that person. The game might promote a current 1* to 2* or give you a new 2*. You can see then as when a person dies/retires, you get a message stating "so and so has been promoted". You should also get a message stating that "so and so is now serving the country faithfully" There is a limit for the number of generals/admirals at each level, so if you have too many 3*** generals, you won't get a new one when someone dies.

[cwegsche]

Thank you very much for clarification! It's a bit confusing in game if you don't know the exact paths ...

Cheers Chris

[Kensai]

One important thing to remember before you process the turn is to ask yourself "do I have stacks that may march to the sound of guns?". It works both in offense and defense. The stack furthest away, the one you expect to MttSoG, should be the most mobile. In regions without railroad you should usually keep cavalry and other light units. In regions with railroad connection to the assisted region, remember to press the "use rails" button to have your soldiers (in that case even heavy infantry and artillery) ready in their wagons, the bonus is so great they will most probably join the battle.

There are some instances that MttSoG is NOT desirable. You wouldn't want your soldiers assist crossing a river. In that case let them rest in passive mode.

[loki100]

There are some instances that MttSoG is NOT desirable. You wouldn't want your soldiers assist crossing a river. In that case let them rest in passive mode.

are you sure? In other AGE games (def RoP and RUS), if a formation responds over a river they don't pay the river crossing penalty. I've used this in RoP when I had a large army having to cross a river. I used a lighter faster corps to set off the battle by outflanking and got the main army into battle with no malus. its a gamble as the likelihood of commitment is much less but its one way to clear a river defense.

I've not checked the detail in PoN but I'm pretty sure the same mechanisms apply.

[Kensai]

I think I recall sagji was saying this in the old forums. Why would the penalty not apply, the battle mechanics should be the same, unless somehow the game abstracts this marching as "teleportation" to the adjacent region. Actually, if you are sure this is the way it is working in the other titles, then it is a clear exploit to me. It should be rectified by applying the penalty, not the other way around.

I more than once had very bad results because of crossing rivers in MttSoG. I always attributed it to this. But it is open.

This is the only "official" information from the improved manual:

Depending on the situation, a Force engaged in combat may decide to call for reinforcements. If it does, other
Forces located in adjacent regions and led by a 2** or 3*** leader may answer the call and join the fight for a round
of combat if they pass a check. (Such Forces must include combat elements and not be in Passive posture, besieged,
or under an Evade Combat order.) This check is taken each round and considers the normal travel distance between
the regions, the level of Military Control in both regions, Posture of the reinforcing Force (Assault or Offensive),
and the Strategic Rating of the reinforcing Force leader. This “Marching to the Sound of the Guns” allows well-led
Forces in adjacent regions to support one another on operations, but the reinforcing Forces do not permanently
move to the region of the battle (i.e., they remain in their original region when the fighting is over).
The following modifiers apply to the check:
1. -10% for each day of marching that the supporting Force would (theoretically) need in order to enter the region
where the battle takes place. All factors affecting the Force’s movement speed apply (e.g., cohesion, weather, rail
movement, activation status of commander, crossing straits, etc.). For example, when the battle takes place in a
mountainous region, reinforcement is unlikely. Stacks moving at cavalry-speed are more likely to enter the battle
(except in bad weather).
2. +5% for each point of strategic rating of the Force commander who tries to march to the sound of the guns.
3. -10% if the Force that tries to march to the sound of the guns is in a “Defensive” posture.
4. -1% for every 5% of enemy control in the region where the battle takes place and the adjacent region from
which troops would march to join the fight – enemy military control in both regions is added together and then
divided by 5 to calculate this.
A Force may pass the check and join the fight in some rounds and fail in others. Theater CiCs have a greater chance
to reinforce a battle and of getting reinforcements themselves, which means their best use may be a region behind
the lines (if transit times are short) so they can reinforce and direct combat. This means you can plan to use the
highest commander as a sort of reserve, to deliver additional punch if needed. Reinforcements will immediately
return to their original region after the battle (so if they were besieging enemy, the siege is not disrupted), but they
can only help one friendly stack per day. Orders to enter a structure do not affect the check. This makes it effective
to divide large bodies of troops into several mutually supporting Armies or Corps that can make the best use of
available leaders. Assigning rail movement capacity to your intended reserve army makes it likelier to join the fight
(see modifier 1 above) and they are fresher when they get to the field.

[Q-Kee]

I have noticed that often divisions from the supporting corps take heavier losses, but I thought this was because they were the ones who ended up doing the most fighting - quite the sensible thing to do, let the corps from the "quiet" area do the fighting to preserve the corps in the "endangered" area. As for penalties, one could say that the enemy force is already preoccupied with the engaded corps and cannot interfere with the river crossing of the supporting corps, thus no penalties are applicable - if one were inclined to argue in favor.

But inevitably the next question arises - what exactly is the role of the MPs? I suppose they decrease riot risk within the poplace and/or add to the cohesion of their stack...?

[Kensai]

When a force marches, it loses cohesion. When one of your units is set to MttSotG you need to be careful you "really" want them to engage. Otherwise passive or evasive action. Taking more than expected casualties is normal as sometimes they have to march a lot to get into combat (especially serious when they engage in the last 3-4 days of the turn, meaning they have marched a lot). I would be surprised if not even that is taken into consideration, then MttSotG needs to go back to the drawing board as it would be really like teleportation.

Q-Kee, I could argue the opposite. That the enemy is still holding its position and nonetheless keeping the riverfront as it makes sense not to leave such a good defensive position. I think only Pocus can tell us what really happens.

[Jim-NC]

Actually, in AACW 1 it was a lot like teleportation. This is/was a game engine feature I guess you would call it (maybe abstraction). The force would appear in the battle region, and then return to it's original location (no marching required). Sometimes, if the battle was late enough in the turn, it would not return to it's original location, but remain in the battle region. You could also have a corps MTSG into 2 different regions on 2 consecutive days in a single turn (my opponent did that trick to me). Which was real interesting, as it took 6 days to for him to move into the region on either side, yet the corps could "magically" appear in each region beside it's current on separate days.

I don't believe that the MTSG force suffers any cohesion losses or penalty for "marching" to help their bretheren. And I think MTSG works the same for most or all AGEOD titles.

[loki100]

I have noticed that often divisions from the supporting corps take heavier losses, but I thought this was because they were the ones who ended up doing the most fighting - quite the sensible thing to do, let the corps from the "quiet" area do the fighting to preserve the corps in the "endangered" area. As for penalties, one could say that the enemy force is already preoccupied with the engaded corps and cannot interfere with the river crossing of the supporting corps, thus no penalties are applicable - if one were inclined to argue in favor.

But inevitably the next question arises - what exactly is the role of the MPs? I suppose they decrease riot risk within the poplace and/or add to the cohesion of their stack...?

the process by which the game chooses 'stacks' to engage is a bit complex and random - so you can get some formations more damaged than others (which is realistic), its one reason not to engage with too many separate formations if you can avoid it.

MPs are mainly for civilian unrest - put them in high revolt risk provinces and they will drive that down slowly over time.

[Kensai]

It is an exploit. To calculate cohesion loss while marching it is very easy, after all. It could use the same formula as with normal on-screen marching. If it would have lost x amount of cohesion for a 5-day march, then a 5-day MttSotG should lose the same x amount. Same applies for every (ANY) regional penalty (river crossings, etc) while the unit marches to the region of action. Otherwise it is as it disregards all laws of physics... frankly teleporting to action!

[Jim-NC]

It is a game engine ability. This allows you to spread out your troops to cover all avenues of advance. Imagine if that worked the way you say. The battle would be over before you could move in troops to support. This would give all the advantages to the attacker, as they know when/where they will attack. Especially with 15 day turns. You can't possibly cover all regions, but in the time frame, armies were able to always intercept the enemy who was in front of them. If not, you would have to make the travel time for each region high enough to allow the defender a chance to do something.

It's a decision made by the developers to assist the players in defense.

[Kensai]

I don't understand why it should be over before even starting. MttSotG can happen even by attacking from one direction (region). In this case the exploit is even more evident. The initiating corps would have to fight with all the normal penalties of crossing, while the assisting which comes from the same region will take a gamey free ride.

MttSotG can be used both in defense and offense. Actually, the most remarkable uses I've seen are in offense. It is a powerful mechanism that separates the good players from the best players. Given that a stack can assist in more fronts/attempts in the 15 days (as long as they are NOT in the same day), I strongly believe that it at least should have the normal battle penalties and restraints. Otherwise it is close to magic.

I can't take it off my mind, though, that it has been working with the penalties, at least in PON. I guess I will have to create a test conflict and read the battle log.