Hardcore Supplies Settings

[Kensai]

I want to decrease the supplies production in PON cause I think it is too generous. You only see supply shortages in very limited situations. Ok, it is obviously normal NOT to run out of supplies in civilized and advanced Europe, nonetheless I think I my game would benefit with more aggressive settings where distribution becomes important again.

These are the settings of the default GameLogic. What would you change and why?

Code: Select all

// ***** _SUPPLY_ *****
supSSLLandBase = 5 // Base supply free of any decay
supSSLNavBase = 5000 // Base supply free of any decay, water region
supSSLPerDevH = 300 // Each dev level gives this #of hundredth SSL (200 = 2 pts per dev)
supSSLPerColH = 150 // same for CP (all non enemy CP are ok) with a 100 bonus limit
supSSLNatSelf = 5000 // Bonus in SSL if region has a National Status for us
supSSLIfNatNotEnemy = 500 // Same but the region is a national status region for a faction which is not our enemy
supSSLPerStrucWantH = 500 // Each structure supply want adds this value (in hundredth of SSL), 500 = 5 per supply want
supSSLModHarsh = -20 // -20 to SSL if weather is harsh
supSSLModVHarsh = -40 // Same for very harsh
supSSLModPillaged = -40 // pillaged
supSSLPerPopH = 100 // Each point of pop in a 100% dev adds this value in hundredth of SSL, in ratio to dev
supSSLMinimum = 5 // End minimum is 5 SSL
supBaseDecayPerc = 20 // Base decay %
supIncDecayPerc = 5 // additional decay %
supMinDecayPerc = 0 // min end decay %
supMaxDecayPerc = 90 // max end decay %

I believe ideally I should decrease primary supplies and ammo production so I can force the "conversion" action have some extra utility when under pressure. Now most players simply turn that off, both in SP and MP, only the AI keeps it on. Remember that the supplies & ammo conversion in F4 works to convert your merchant stash to field supplies/ammo in your capital for further distribution. I might touch supplies decay as well, although I am afraid that could make Africa and other undeveloped regions really inhospitable. But would that be wrong? I think no one should venture in the Heart of Darkness or Far West or Siberia without many supply carts and a chain of depots anyway.

Comments? Questions? Pocus? apy:

[vaalen]

I want to decrease the supplies production in PON cause I think they are too generous. You only see supply shortages in very limited situations. Ok, it is obviously normal NOT to run out of supplies in civilized and advanced Europe, nonetheless I think I my game would benefit with more aggressive settings where distribution becomes important again.

These are the settings of the default GameLogic. What would you change and why?

Code: Select all

// ***** _SUPPLY_ *****
supSSLLandBase = 5 // Base supply free of any decay
supSSLNavBase = 5000 // Base supply free of any decay, water region
supSSLPerDevH = 300 // Each dev level gives this #of hundredth SSL (200 = 2 pts per dev)
supSSLPerColH = 150 // same for CP (all non enemy CP are ok) with a 100 bonus limit
supSSLNatSelf = 5000 // Bonus in SSL if region has a National Status for us
supSSLIfNatNotEnemy = 500 // Same but the region is a national status region for a faction which is not our enemy
supSSLPerStrucWantH = 500 // Each structure supply want adds this value (in hundredth of SSL), 500 = 5 per supply want
supSSLModHarsh = -20 // -20 to SSL if weather is harsh
supSSLModVHarsh = -40 // Same for very harsh
supSSLModPillaged = -40 // pillaged
supSSLPerPopH = 100 // Each point of pop in a 100% dev adds this value in hundredth of SSL, in ratio to dev
supSSLMinimum = 5 // End minimum is 5 SSL
supBaseDecayPerc = 20 // Base decay %
supIncDecayPerc = 5 // additional decay %
supMinDecayPerc = 0 // min end decay %
supMaxDecayPerc = 90 // max end decay %

I believe ideally I should decrease primary supplies and ammo production so I can force the "conversion" action have some extra utility when under pressure. Now most players simply turn that off, both in SP and MP, only the AI keeps it on. Remember that the supplies & ammo conversion in F4 works to convert your merchant stash to field supplies/ammo in your capital for further distribution. I might touch supplies decay as well, although I am afraid that could make Africa and other undeveloped regions really inhospitable. But would that be wrong? I think no one should venture in the Heart of Darkness or Far West or Siberia without many supply carts and a chain of depots anyway.

Comments? Questions? Pocus? apy:

With respect, I think the supply situation is fine the way it is. Just try supplying a large force in a colonial area, or even a small force unless you have the supply infrastructure you mention. I have fought a lot of PON wars in those areas, and your armies will starve and fall apart without careful planning. It is hard enough to keep even small forces supplied in Africa, though I do find it an enjoyable challenge.

As for more developed areas, supply should be readily available, unless your lines of supply are blocked. Supply during that era was mainly food and ammunition, and both were easily available. The main problem was getting them to the troops. Not much of a problem in western Europe, with its well developed infrastructure. I have not read of anyone having supply problems in Europe, unless they were besieged or cut off.

[Kensai]

I cannot find the primary production settings in any file so I believe the supplies a city, port, and depot create each turn are hardcoded. But tweaking the supplies decay might do the trick, potentially with an even better abstraction.

For example, just out of my head, I feel that the decay level in a pillaged region should be dramatic. A pillaged region means a region that (if even not "scorched", although it is the same mechanism) it has lost almost all of its logistics capability to sustain supplies, therefore it becomes a black hole for units that are in. I think I could set that to -80 if not higher. Also, the minimum end decay percentage should not be 0%. In 15 days there is always something in the supplies that "goes bad", especially in that era: rotten meat, moldy bread, worm-infested fruits, etc. I believe the minimum decay should be something like 5 or even 10% each turn.

With respect, I think the supply situation is fine the way it is. Just try supplying a large force in a colonial area, or even a small force unless you have the supply infrastructure you mention. I have fought a lot of PON wars in those areas, and your armies will starve and fall apart without careful planning. It is hard enough to keep even small forces supplied in Africa, though I do find it an enjoyable challenge.

I know, have been with puny Belgium in Africa in the late 50s.
But that's the point of it. This will definitely slow down military colonization in a more realistic way: your armies will not be able to march in the heart of Africa before having developed adequately the seaside regions and the infrastructure, as it historically happened. Note that this will NOT slow down the discovery of regions.

But as an abstraction we are already there: after all, you should normally NOT be able to supply any force bigger than colonial (1-star General) in Africa unless extremely well organized with carts and infrastructure. This is all WAD!

As for more developed areas, supply should be readily available, unless your lines of supply are blocked. Supply during that era was mainly food and ammunition, and both were easily available. The main problem was getting them to the troops. Not much of a problem in western Europe, with its well developed infrastructure. I have not read of anyone having supply problems in Europe, unless they were besieged or cut off.

The problem is, I don't even see supply issues in other parts of the world, including the Far East or the Americas. This bothers me, especially as a player of other AGEOD titles too. Also, see my previous example regarding minimum decay per turn no matter what. Supplies do go bad. Supply decay is a very nice abstraction of what is going on.

I simply want to see decay catch up a little bit with production if possible. To keep a player more on its toes regarding production and sound logistics decisions.

[vaalen]

For example, just out of my head, I feel that the decay level in a pillaged region should be dramatic. A pillaged region means a region that (if even not "scorched", although it is the same mechanism) it has lost almost all of its logistics capability to sustain supplies, therefore it becomes a black hole for units that are in. I think I could set that to -80 if not higher. Also, the minimum end decay percentage should not be 0%. In 15 days there is always something in the supplies that "goes bad", especially in that era: rotten meat, moldy bread, worm-infested fruits, etc. I believe the minimum decay should be something like 5 or even 10% each turn.

Very interesting idea.


The problem is, I don't even see supply issues in other parts of the world, including the Far East or the Americas. This bothers me, especially as a player of other AGEOD titles too. Also, see my previous example regarding minimum decay per turn no matter what. Supplies do go bad. Supply decay is a very nice abstraction of what is going on.

I simply want to see decay catch up a little bit with production if possible. To keep a player more on its toes regarding production and sound logistics decisions. [/QUOTE]

I have had supply problems as the US player trying to hunt down Indians in the far west. I have also had severe supply attrition problems as the British in Burma, and As the French trying to conquer Indochina., and as the Russians trying to conquer central Asia. And in the Russo Japanise War scenario, supply became a huge problem due to the decay issue, and large numbers of Russian troops who were in supply, on a railroad, were starving and suffering heavy attrition. In fact, after suffering horrible losses, I now will never begin a war outside of Europe unless I have a supply network of ports, railroads, depots, supply trains, and hopefully some missions and outposts in the more remote areas. I will build the supply network first. And even having that network does not guarantee supply for all your troops, especially in a desolate place like the Sudan.

That said, a little more supply decay would add an extra degree of challenge. But I would ask that this be an optional setting.

[Kensai]

All of the above was for my own custom game, I am not implying it should be definitely added to v1.04 or anything. That said, what you describe above is PERFECTLY NORMAL as a situation. In fact, supply problems should be the norm and not the exception for any war away from civilized regions in this era.

Personally, I have never run out of supplies as I always try to follow the exact rules of the engine. You can have an army starve two regions away of a huge wealthy depot if you forget, for example, to have supply cart(s) on that force. From what I've seen in previous games and past questions, many players still do not understand completely the nuisances of the supply system.

I simply want it to be less fire-and-forget and more calculated. Right now it seems to me that most regions have more than enough supply production and accumulation (storing), thus you never actually have a problem, with or without depots nearby.

[vaalen]

All of the above was for my own custom game, I am not implying it should be definitely added to v1.04 or anything. That said, what you describe above is PERFECTLY NORMAL as a situation. In fact, supply problems should be the norm and not the exception for any war away from civilized regions in this era.

Personally, I have never run out of supplies as I always try to follow the exact rules of the engine. You can have an army starve two regions away of a huge wealthy depot if you forget, for example, to have supply cart(s) on that force. From what I've seen in previous games and past questions, many players still do not understand completely the nuisances of the supply system.

I simply want it to be less fire-and-forget and more calculated. Right now it seems to me that most regions have more than enough supply production and accumulation (storing), thus you never actually have a problem, with or without depots nearby.

I agree that what I described was normal, and I really like that aspect of the game. No other game I have ever played was this realistic about supply, except other Ageod games. And I agree, supply problems, or challenges, should be the norm outside of western Europe. I guess I am saying that I usually do experience these challenges, whereas you do not, perhaps because you know the rules of the game better. I am extremely impressed that you have never run out of supply. I still do, from time to time, though it is uncommon since I now develop the infrastructure to the extent I can before I send my troops or explorers into the bush.

[Kensai]

Truth to be told, even in my test games, I have never ventured in the black heart of Africa! But even if I tried, it would have been only after I had completely developed the departing base by the shore and only with a minor, well-supplied (2+ carts) small colonial stack. And that for only limited sorties-exhibitions. It is perfectly normal not to be able to transverse jungles or the Sahara without losing half of your forces on the way from disease.

I was just surveying my games and almost everywhere the SSL is really high. I will test the proposed change in my "Game of Victorian Thrones" (at PBEM) and report here. I feel that a higher decay rate is really the ideal mechanism as it will not influence much the advanced regions (as the cities create enough supplies each turn) but also make it harder to attempt full scale colonialism very early in the game (which is a realism goal). It will also make it easier to reach the SSL with a smaller concentration of troops, thus triggering decay which should be really dreadful for all but the best equipped stacks. Moreover, a pillaged region will really be scorched from now on! It should be avoided at all costs.

(anyway, will apply, check and report here... in the meantime read here)

[vaalen]

Kensai, I am very interested in seeing your future reports. Thank you for the link, it is very helpful!

[Kensai]

I will start with these changes to see if there any game breaking issues in an ongoing game (Game of Thrones):

Code: Select all

// ***** _SUPPLY_ *****
supSSLLandBase = 5 // Base supply free of any decay
supSSLNavBase = 2000 // Base supply free of any decay, water region
supSSLPerDevH = 200 // Each dev level gives this #of hundredth SSL (200 = 2 pts per dev)
supSSLPerColH = 100 // same for CP (all non enemy CP are ok) with a 100 bonus limit
supSSLNatSelf = 2000 // Bonus in SSL if region has a National Status for us
supSSLIfNatNotEnemy = 200 // Same but the region is a national status region for a faction which is not our enemy
supSSLPerStrucWantH = 250 // Each structure supply want adds this value (in hundredth of SSL), 500 = 5 per supply want
supSSLModHarsh = -25 // -20 to SSL if weather is harsh
supSSLModVHarsh = -50 // Same for very harsh
supSSLModPillaged = -100 // pillaged
supSSLPerPopH = 50 // Each point of pop in a 100% dev adds this value in hundredth of SSL, in ratio to dev
supSSLMinimum = 5 // End minimum is 5 SSL
supBaseDecayPerc = 20 // Base decay %
supIncDecayPerc = 5 // additional decay %
supMinDecayPerc = 5 // min end decay %
supMaxDecayPerc = 90 // max end decay %

Essentially I almost halved the SSL everywhere while I added more punitive decay (which lowers the SSL) in case of foul weather and pillage. Also, the normal decay minimum will not be 0% but 5% each turn, meaning no matter what, every 15 days a minimum of 5% of the accumulated supplies everywhere will go bad. If my calculations are correct, at that pace there is almost a complete "turnover" of supplies in the depots every 7 months (14 turns).

I find this realistic. Ok, hardtack might endure for much longer periods, but most of the other normal foodstuff (especially at garrison level) would have to be used or given away to the population, in any way, decay!

[Kensai]

My first impression is: it works! But more turns are needed to have a clearer view. As Japan and Greece, I obviously don't have SSL problems in any of my core provinces, but as many Russian and Greek troops have gathered and lay siege on an occupied province, I got lower than that limit. I have loaded other factions to see as well, indeed there are supply decay problems where you expect them, especially in less developed regions in Africa and the Middle East.

I need to play more to be certain though and to see if albeit the decay there is enough movement and reallocation of supplies in the chain. There is still a LOT of supplies accumulated, am curious how that will flow around the map now that many provinces cannot keep much of it stocked.

[Kensai]

So far so good in my game... I am still not certain if it works correctly with sea regions (especially where many ships reside in MTBs), but as far as land regions are concerned I finally see units with less than 10% supplies and a good wasting. It's amazing to finally see the depots release their extra supplies to the grid. This happens especially fast when you have an intensive regional war with supply rights in the vicinity.

[vaalen]

So far so good in my game... I am still not certain if it works correctly with sea regions (especially where many ships reside in MTBs), but as far as land regions are concerned I finally see units with less than 10% supplies and a good wasting. It's amazing to finally see the depots release their extra supplies to the grid. This happens especially fast when you have an intensive regional war with supply rights in the vicinity.

Kensai, this is most interesting! Please continue to let us know how this experiment continues to work. What areas (Europe, Africa, etc) have you noticed this effect in?

[Kensai]

"...less than 100%" should have been my previous remark!

As far as African regions go: so far I am moving around on the Northern coast of Libya (a colony with a rather low development rate, less than 20-30%) and the unit seems to manage it, even without a supply cart. However I have not ventured to the heart of darkness yet and not far from a supply depot.
As far as European regions go: they work properly, no bottlenecks whatsoever even with the base SSL cut to half.

[vaalen]

"...less than 100%" should have been my previous remark!

As far as African regions go: so far I am moving around on the Northern coast of Libya (a colony with a rather low development rate, less than 20-30%) and the unit seems to manage it, even without a supply cart. However I have not ventured to the heart of darkness yet and not far from a supply depot.
As far as European regions go: they work properly, no bottlenecks whatsoever even with the base SSL cut to half.

Sounds like it is working fine for Europe and North Africa. I would like to know how it works in Indochina, central africa, and Burma, where I have suffered huge attrition losses under the vanilla system.