Sugar Beet Production

[Narmorce]

Can anyone tell me what the point of the Sugarbeet production facility is, which comes in around 1890? It seems to be more expensive but less productive than the older sugar plantations, and yet uses the same resource.

[Kensai]

Yes, this has been asked in the past, do not worry it is all perfect and realistic design. It simulates the passage of production that happened in the late 19th century from sugar cane to sugar beet. The latter is less efficient if I have understood correctly.

[czert2]

well but with this it sould create new sugar planations in europe + russia to simulate use of sugar beet. Are they created via event or it need to create new ones ?

[Egg Bub]

and yet uses the same resource.

If this is the case then there is a problem. Sugar beet can be grown in a temperate climate, so should use the cereals resource in a given region. In East Anglia where I live there is plenty of land used for sugar beet growing, which can also be used to produce grain or maize.

It seems to be more expensive but less productive than the older sugar plantations

The reduced efficiency should be offset by the ability to grow it in Europe, where there is lots of agricultural land.

[Narmorce]

The sugar beet plantation card indicates it needs the traditional sugar resource, and when I select it the only places that show green are in the Caribbean. As long as both sugar cane and sugar beet use exactly the same kinds of resources, I can't see any justification for building the latter. I've got some spare cereals in Canada and elsewhere but I can't build the plantations on them.

[Kensai]

I know, kind of counterintuitive... but let's just say it is an abstraction of the lowest productivity of global sugar production globally.

[Egg Bub]

Surely it's more than an abstraction if a crop, which is almost always grown in a temperate climate, must be grown on land which is suitable for sugar cane (which is more productive). It wouldn't make sense for a farmer to grow sugar beet in the Caribbean, as he would just be wasting land on which he could more profitably grow cane.

"Sugar beets grow exclusively in the temperate zone, in contrast to sugarcane, which grows exclusively in the tropical and subtropical zones." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugarbeet#Description

Depending on how big a change this would be (not very big I imagine), maybe this could go on the next list of bug fixes?

[Kensai]

Nah, it would take the authoring of a VGN Sugar Resource Events, the way we have events for further introduction of historical gems, oil, gold resources. Perhaps it's something we could do ourselves if you care to gather all information about where sugar beets grow (the Wikipedia article is a good start point). Then we could add these resources to the temperate places and perhaps decrease a couple of them in the tropical ones for balancing reasons.

[Albert Herring]

Might it not be possible to alter beet factories to share the existing cereal resource in the same manner that both vineyards and orchards share the fruit resource? Maybe change the resource name to something more generic like "arable land".

[Sir Garnet]

Might it not be possible to alter beet factories to share the existing cereal resource in the same manner that both vineyards and orchards share the fruit resource? Maybe change the resource name to something more generic like "arable land".

That would make more sense, though Cereals are in myriad places and with too wide a range.

[Kensai]

The easiest thing and most sensible, if you ask me, is to simply remap the places where these "sugar resources" appear. After all, they are already generic: they mean sugar (irrespective if it is from cane or beet).

[Pocus]

+1

add events in Europe adding sugar resources

[Albert Herring]

The easiest thing and most sensible, if you ask me, is to simply remap the places where these "sugar resources" appear. After all, they are already generic: they mean sugar (irrespective if it is from cane or beet).

But that would give the player no incentive to use the beet factory apart from pool limitations, and would allow plantations in temperate zones in the early game when historically it was a driving force behind the colonisation of tropical regions.

For a wilfully complex solution, as there are already defined climatic zones on the map, have a generic arable/agricultural land resource but put a climate restriction on different crop/product types ("cereals" = general vegetable foods anywhere, cotton and tobacco where it's warmer, sugar beet where it's cold; perhaps also some similar arrangement for tropical fruits/tea/coffee/cane sugar/rubber in tropical areas). Or retain the existing special resources for the rarer products but allow them to be used for some other crops with a production penalty.

[Le Ricain]

As part of a planned development of a 1914 scenario, I worked on the industrial structures. For sugar beet production, I identified the following PoN provinces:

FRA: Nord, Ile de France, Picardy, Champagne & Artois
RUS: Kuban & Kursk
USA: San Francisco, North Platte, Denver, Salt Lake City & Hawaii (cane)
GBR: Yarmouth
GER/PRU: Hanover, Braunschweig & Anhalt
JAP (cane): Tainan
AUS: Boehmen, Maehren & Pilsen
ITA: Lombardia, Parma & Venetia.
BEL: Wallonie

The event that unlocks the Sugar Beet Factory structures could also unlock these provinces for sugar production in exactly the same way as petroleum works.

[Albert Herring]

East Midlands ought to be in there, and most of Belgium, and I did a bunch of work for a client who supplied refinery machinery to northern Italy, and the German wiki page suggests the first cultivation was in Waldleben and has a map of beet-growing areas in modern Germany on http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Zuckerr%C3%BCbengebiete-D.PNG&filetimestamp=20081213073308

[Kensai]

But that would give the player no incentive to use the beet factory apart from pool limitations, and would allow plantations in temperate zones in the early game when historically it was a driving force behind the colonisation of tropical regions.

You cannot stop progress.
And yes, pool limitations would eventually abstract the effect quite nicely, as interest from Western nations moves to sugar beet extraction. Colonization should be in its final strokes by the time sugar beet is in full regime.

For a wilfully complex solution, as there are already defined climatic zones on the map, have a generic arable/agricultural land resource but put a climate restriction on different crop/product types ("cereals" = general vegetable foods anywhere, cotton and tobacco where it's warmer, sugar beet where it's cold; perhaps also some similar arrangement for tropical fruits/tea/coffee/cane sugar/rubber in tropical areas). Or retain the existing special resources for the rarer products but allow them to be used for some other crops with a production penalty.

Isn't this a tad too complex? It would be cool to improve things, but not reinvent them.

East Midlands ought to be in there, and most of Belgium, and I did a bunch of work for a client who supplied refinery machinery to northern Italy, and the German wiki page suggests the first cultivation was in Waldleben and has a map of beet-growing areas in modern Germany on http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Zuckerr%C3%BCbengebiete-D.PNG&filetimestamp=20081213073308

To be precise we need to have a map of early 20th century, not today. But this goes to the right direction!

[Kensai]

East Midlands ought to be in there, and most of Belgium, and I did a bunch of work for a client who supplied refinery machinery to northern Italy, and the German wiki page suggests the first cultivation was in Waldleben and has a map of beet-growing areas in modern Germany on http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Zuckerr%C3%BCbengebiete-D.PNG&filetimestamp=20081213073308

To be precise we need to have a map of early 20th century, not today. But this goes to the right direction!

[Le Ricain]

In my post above, I deleted Louisiana, as it is already present and added to the USA to reflect the sugar beet production areas 1870 - 1901 and added Hawaii.

[Le Ricain]

East Midlands ought to be in there, and most of Belgium, and I did a bunch of work for a client who supplied refinery machinery to northern Italy, and the German wiki page suggests the first cultivation was in Waldleben and has a map of beet-growing areas in modern Germany on http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Zuckerr%C3%BCbengebiete-D.PNG&filetimestamp=20081213073308

The first British sugar factory was established in Cantley, Norfolk (Yarmouth Province in PoN) in 1912. Additional factories were built in the 1920's.

[Le Ricain]

East Midlands ought to be in there, and most of Belgium, and I did a bunch of work for a client who supplied refinery machinery to northern Italy, and the German wiki page suggests the first cultivation was in Waldleben and has a map of beet-growing areas in modern Germany on http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Zuckerr%C3%BCbengebiete-D.PNG&filetimestamp=20081213073308

Yes, GER needs to have sugar beet production. By 1880, Germany was the world leader in sugar beet production. PoN production provinces were Hanover, Braunschweig & Anhalt.

Italian sugar beet production began in 1872 and was located in the PoN provinces of Lombardia, Parma & Venetia.

Belgian sugar beet production was located in Wallonie province

[Egg Bub]

What's wrong with sugar beet factories having "cereals" as a necessary region resource, but a limited structure pool (perhaps increased incrementally) to prevent spamming? It's more accurate than a generic "sugar" resource.

[Le Ricain]

Just to complete the set:

JAP (cane): Tainan

AUS: Boehmen, Maehren & Pilsen

[Savoyard]

What the game won't simulate is how stinky the process is.

[Gen. Monkey-Bear]

Perhaps this is a bit off the original topic, but I find that rum and sugar are closely related in the game. Do the sugar modifier structures also affect rum?

Which technology modifies rum production?

[Jim-NC]

Sugar Diffusion Diffusion tech increases Rum and Sugar. I think it allows you to build level 2 structures.

[Albert Herring]

Belgian sugar beet production was located in Wallonie province

Dunno about the history, but the current centre of sugar production is Tienen (Tirlemont pour les francophones) which is decidedly Flemish, although close to the taalgrens, and there's certainly lots of beet grown in the Hesbaye (the flattish bit between Brussels and Namur). I note that Flanders starts with a sugar resource anyway, though.

[czert2]

2009 stats of production of sugar beet

France 35.2
United States 27
Germany 25.9
Russia 24.9
Turkey 17.2
Poland 10.8
Ukraine 10.1
United Kingdom 8.5
China 7.5
Netherlands 5.7
World Total 228.2

and some map
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sugarbeetoutput.png

easiest solution - when you invent latest factory, let it triger event which add some sugar to europe (any myby china + us too, ut oonly few). Removing of some sugar "cane" from game is not good idea IMO - sugar was still produced here, they just swaped slaves with cheap chinese labor (but in terms realy similiar to slavery).