2 Question Regarding AGEOD Leaving Paradox

[DaveLogan]

So I saw that AGEOD is leaving Paradox and signing up with Matrix/Slitherine (again). Does this mean that we who have bought some of your games through Gamersgate(Paradox) will receive Matrix keys to further update our software? Will we be able to still download these games via Gamersgate?

[loki100]

So I saw that AGEOD is leaving Paradox and signing up with Matrix/Slitherine (again). Does this mean that we who have bought some of your games through Gamersgate(Paradox) will receive Matrix keys to further update our software? Will we be able to still download these games via Gamersgate?

well gamersgate is independent of both groups of publishers so you can download etc as many times as you need from them. So that part is no problem in that you can use your Gamersgate account, or your Steam account, or whatever, to access the games you have bought

[bogkop]

well gamersgate is independent of both groups of publishers so you can download etc as many times as you need from them. So that part is no problem in that you can use your Gamersgate account, or your Steam account, or whatever, to access the games you have bought

Will Pride of Nations (+DLCs and Rise of Prussia) be available for purchase on Steam again? The store pages are still there, but without the price or 'add to cart' buttons. What about updates/patches for people who bought this game from Steam when it was available?

[loki100]

Will Pride of Nations (+DLCs and Rise of Prussia) be available for purchase on Steam again? The store pages are still there, but without the price or 'add to cart' buttons. What about updates/patches for people who bought this game from Steam when it was available?

not sure to be honest, I did all my own buying via Gamersgate, and there is no reason to think the split between Paradox and AGEOD affects how GG operates

[Erik Springelkamp]

On a Gamersgate installation you can apply the Ageod patches, and with a Steam installation you can copy the whole game directory to a new location and then apply Ageod patches.

So there is actually no need for GG or Steam to offer extended support (apart from allowing an installation of an old version on a new computer).

[Pocus]

As Erik said, you can copy your full installation indeed.

Steam will probably not sell anymore our products. As the general statement said (in News from Ageod), we don't feel it is a good thing in the long term to have games sold at 2 euros apiece (or even less, I saw ROP at 99 cents during a discount operation) because it means there is no way we can support on the long term these games. There are two philosophies here, either games are just consumable products, you use them for a short period of time and then you move on, or the games are supported for a long time and they strive to remains a reference and a classic on a particular subject. Given that we don't produce games dealing with dwarves making funny sounds and burps, with a lot of particles effects and coloured lights, I believe the second solution is better for us (I'm not against dwarves in games by the way, I like them actually, having played a lot of Dwarf fortress and even this little Dwarfs! game on Steam)

[bogkop]

As Erik said, you can copy your full installation indeed.

Steam will probably not sell anymore our products. As the general statement said (in News from Ageod), we don't feel it is a good thing in the long term to have games sold at 2 euros apiece (or even less, I saw ROP at 99 cents during a discount operation) because it means there is no way we can support on the long term these games. There are two philosophies here, either games are just consumable products, you use them for a short period of time and then you move on, or the games are supported for a long time and they strive to remains a reference and a classic on a particular subject. Given that we don't produce games dealing with dwarves making funny sounds and burps, with a lot of particles effects and coloured lights, I believe the second solution is better for us (I'm not against dwarves in games by the way, I like them actually, having played a lot of Dwarf fortress and even this little Dwarfs! game on Steam)

I don't think Steam will put any game on sale without publisher's approval. For example, you won't see a huge discount for a title published by Activision or Capcom often. Some publishers like Majesco never put their games on sale, while others like Paradox or 1C will drop the price by 75% just a few months after release. But completely removing your games from a leading digital distribution platform might not be a good thing for your sales. 99 cents for ROP is insane, but so is $25 for a three year old game. The lowest price of ROP on Steam, according to steamprices.com was $4. I belive it's better if houndreds of gamers buy the game for $7-10 than just a few afficionados for $25.

[wosung]

As Erik said, you can copy your full installation indeed.

Steam will probably not sell anymore our products. As the general statement said (in News from Ageod), we don't feel it is a good thing in the long term to have games sold at 2 euros apiece (or even less, I saw ROP at 99 cents during a discount operation) because it means there is no way we can support on the long term these games. There are two philosophies here, either games are just consumable products, you use them for a short period of time and then you move on, or the games are supported for a long time and they strive to remains a reference and a classic on a particular subject. Given that we don't produce games dealing with dwarves making funny sounds and burps, with a lot of particles effects and coloured lights, I believe the second solution is better for us (I'm not against dwarves in games by the way, I like them actually, having played a lot of Dwarf fortress and even this little Dwarfs! game on Steam)

Don't know if this will impact you, just read this over there at Matrix (an don't use Steam at all myself, so no own agenda. And 99 cents is just insane):

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3282644

"We have had so many requests to add the games to Steam we decided to try it out. There is no submission process to Valve other than Greenlight, so every single game has to go via Greenlight unless you already have a deal in place with Steam. We think Steam is an interesting option for some games but certainly would not plan to take everything to steam. Panzer Corps is at a good place in its life cycle where we've had the bulk of sales that we are going to get direct without the additional visibility of something like Steam. That's not to say it doesn't still sell well ( we just had our best week since August last year), but we think this is the right time to look for a wider audience and introduce them to these type of games and once they get a taste for them, hopefully draw them in to the rest of the line up.

As stated elsewhere we have no plans to do anything exclusive with Steam. We were doing digital downloads long before Steam and plan to be doing them long after!

If possible we will be allowing users who bought from us to add their game to their Steam account but we don't know enough about the process to understand how that works yet. We will almost certainly be offering the DLC's on Steam as well.

_____________________________

Iain McNeil
Director
Slitherine Software
Website http://www.slitherine.com"

[vaalen]

As Erik said, you can copy your full installation indeed.

Steam will probably not sell anymore our products. As the general statement said (in News from Ageod), we don't feel it is a good thing in the long term to have games sold at 2 euros apiece (or even less, I saw ROP at 99 cents during a discount operation) because it means there is no way we can support on the long term these games. There are two philosophies here, either games are just consumable products, you use them for a short period of time and then you move on, or the games are supported for a long time and they strive to remains a reference and a classic on a particular subject. Given that we don't produce games dealing with dwarves making funny sounds and burps, with a lot of particles effects and coloured lights, I believe the second solution is better for us (I'm not against dwarves in games by the way, I like them actually, having played a lot of Dwarf fortress and even this little Dwarfs! game on Steam)

Bravo Ageod! Pocus, you and Slitherine and Matrix made the right choice. Blessings on all of you. It takes great courage to say no to steam, and to support the long term viability of your great games.
Once again, you show the integrity and decency that is so much a part of Ageod. Thank you. I am so grateful.

[ERISS]

I don't think Steam will put any game on sale without publisher's approval. For example, you won't see a huge discount for a title published by Activision or Capcom often. Some publishers like Majesco never put their games on sale,

Maybe too few Steam users pay fullprice, so the work they add to the devs is not very well paid (as devs have to make the aftersale service on their own forum for Steam problems!: how to patch and mod, etc).

completely removing your games from a leading digital distribution platform might not be a good thing for your sales.

Theorically yes.

insane is $25 for a three year old game.

??? It depands on the game. Or you're already used to the almost given games of Steam. (I know GOG has also very often smaller prices)

I belive it's better if houndreds of gamers buy the game for $7-10 than just a few afficionados for $25.

Yes. Maybe these houndreds Steam users don't, and wait for an even smaller usual Steam price..

[Erik Springelkamp]

These AGEOD games are amazingly cheap compared to the physical wargames I bought in the 20th century.

They were easily $80 dollars, and buying them was an expensive hobby (I have over a 100 of them stacked away).

Compared to those days an AGEOD game with several scenario's at $25 is real bargain.

Real wargames have always been a niche (or elite, as we like to call it :wacko market, where a large volume policy of selling for $2 just doesn't work.

[Pat "Stonewall" Cleburne]

I actually like a 20-30$ price point for a game that is still being patched. 10-20 once support is ceased. Niche wargames can't survive at the steam price, and I won't buy games at the 40$+ price that Matrix/Slitherine keep all their titles.

[ERISS]

I won't buy games at the 40$+ price that Matrix/Slitherine keep all their titles.

ShrapnelGames too, they even lost their $55 Dominions3 (no longer on their store; lol their past huge -10% sales). Gamersgate is selling it $30 now, I would have bought it from Shrapnel at this price.. I'm not so a fan.
I only bought from SG: SteelPanthers (winSPWW2; still very good), WeirdWorlds (Sg lost it too!), and Bronze (nice, but disapointing: don't expect a Civilization game..).
From Matrix I don't remember buying; add my french taxes: price goes to $50. Still expensive even through sales. I'm not so an hardcore wargamer. However I'm looking on Hannibal and Close Combat.

[Bruit Bleu]

I'm not so an hardcore wargamer. However I'm looking on Hannibal (...)

Hannibal: Rome and Carthage in the Second Punic War (for its complete title) is definitely a very good solo game ! The AI is tough, the art design gives a nice ancient mood inspired by Tabula Peutingeriana and the gameplay is well thought : with 1 turn / year, you have to deal with the Senate and its prerogatives, be everywhere at the same time, and use Hannibal punic tricks to face larger roman armies and turn the course of the war...

It is somewhat different to AJE, and doesn't taste to everybody (for only Carthage is playable and the game balanced in that way : the AI isn't cheating but uses different rules for Rome - and the ancient art style may be disturbing to some)... But there is a demo ! http://www.matrixgames.com/products/388/downloads/

Of course, I don't mean to shadow AJE & BOR with Hannibal, just to inform about a nice small little-known game. Please remove the message if inappropriate on these boards.

[bogkop]

Maybe too few Steam users pay fullprice, so the work they add to the devs is not very well paid (as devs have to make the aftersale service on their own forum for Steam problems!: how to patch and mod, etc).

AGEod or Slitherine might just set fair prices for their games and don't do those -75% sales. I think they just don't want to give part of their profit to Steam/Valve, I can understand that, but I'm sure that a game available on Steam store will reach a broader audience.

I have Pride of Nations on Steam and now I'm dissapointed that I can't buy DLCs from there anymore. I thought that in 2013 I will no longer have to manually download and apply patches and updates for my games.

Or you're already used to the almost given games of Steam. (I know GOG has also very often smaller prices)

I've just bought March of the Eagles paying the full price. I bought Unity of Command few days after release and I don't regret it, even though the game has just been a -66% daily deal. On the other hand, I bought many games only because they were on sale. Some of those wasn't even worth that low price, some still sit in my backlog and I will probably never find a time for them. But some of those games I would probaly never bought were good, so I bought few more DLCs or the next game from that developer.

Another example: I bought a Steam version of Crusader Kings Complete when it was on sale for $2.5. But I already have a retail box and all expansions. I basically bought another copy of the game just because I wanted an updated digital download so I don't have to install from cds and apply patches, and I'm not even sure if I will ever again play this (still great) game now when I have CK II.

$25-$50 is a fair price for a good (new) game. But there are other good or even better games available at the price of $10-$15. Sometimes you have to lower the price to compete with those, especially when your game was released a few years ago (and has a rather mediocre reviews like Rise of Prussia).

Yes. Maybe these houndreds Steam users don't, and wait for an even smaller usual Steam price..

...and they will play March of the Eagles, Crusader Kings, Hearts of Iron, Europa Universalis, Civilization or even Total War series instead...

[loki100]

its worth bearing in mind that Paradox repeatedly have said that after a consistent sales period, sales of full cost games increases. I suspect the logic is that people pick up one on the basis 'its cheap, if I don't like it so what' and enough of that group then buy another Paradox game out of sale.

Now the key question is whether the extra sales at a price that means you cannot support the game, will, for a relatively niche game company, generate enough of the secondary sales to make the package work. I think (& this is a purely personal opinion) that in addition to their flagship games (CK-EU-Vic-HOI) Paradox will start doing more 'play for a while and drop' games such as Senguko/March of the Eagles. Not least that pattern fits better if they really want to exploit the typical sales dynamics on Steam.

[Franciscus]

I have just two comments:

1. Being a physician in Portugal and seeing everyday patients that have to choose to spend their money in food or medications, and others that can't afford the electric light bill - this in Lisbon, Portugal, Europe, 21st Century, we should be very thankful to be so fortunate and continue to be able to indulge in our hobby, buying games at whatever price.

2. In this as in everything else in the end you usually get what you pay for

Regards

[ERISS]

I thought that in 2013 I will no longer have to manually download and apply patches and updates for my games.

Yeah sorry for you. The worst is Steam-only, having to being dependant of more owners of technology; example:

have to choose to spend their money in food or medications, and others that can't afford the electric light bill

In France, I had water and electricity cut some years ago, and I had to live for two weeks in my car (despairing!). I had to come back to parents... Now I'm some ok I live in a one-room rathole "beetween cellars and bins" lol (I'l have to move in bigger for my soon wife and her daughter).
And I know I belong to the rich half part of the world...

- this in Europe, 21st Century, we should be very thankful to be so fortunate and continue to be able to indulge in our hobby, buying games at whatever price.

Sure, europeans should help greek and spanish and other neighbors fighting against their thieves bosses and governments.
As medias, controled by bosses and governments, don't share what happen, and common people prefer being blind, we may be the next in France in being hard thieft and no longer able to buy games...

2. In this as in everything else in the end you usually get what you pay for

Common people is inductively (as all is now well protected property, there is no free land left where to live, so there is no longer need of slavery coercition for no-one has somewhere to escape) in waged labor, so they aren't being paid for what they worked for (the boss legaly, or not, took the lion's share), so they won't get what they worked for.

[Baris]

Free version of winSPWW2 from shrapnel games is good but I got discouraged by the price of game for only higher resolution. My native res 1920*1080. I guess it has better pbem options and campaign, but...
Hannibal game is quite nice and it is definitely worth it. But it does not have pbem and limited to only AI play.

Sure, europeans should help greek and spanish and other neighbors fighting against their thieves bosses and governments.

Not surprising that some of those have no real economy, excluding shipping economy.

[Kensai]

Given that we don't produce games dealing with dwarves making funny sounds and burps, with a lot of particles effects and coloured lights...

Now imagine that on an AGE v2!

A question... I guess you will drop the "Paradox France" company name now, right? Return to old AGEOD or a new combination?

[Pocus]

Yes, Ageod Ltd probably, or Ageod.

I'll make no further comment on the Steam or not Steam and will let you discuss that to your heart's content, hoping you'll all stay cool and polite, we are between gentlemen, right?

[keeveek]

With all respect, I think you couldn't be more wrong. Almost every smaller, indie dev notices that after a while. For example, creator of great but niche RPG games like Avernum series, held high prices for his games for a long time. He thought that's the only way of doing business. But he changed his mind, and started to offer his games on steam and other platforms for lower prices - he admitted that he earned much more money than he earned before, allowing him to continue his work and comit to more projects he never thought he could.

I could give many many more examples, when stubborn devs changed their pricing policy and started to grow.

Do you want to know how I discovered your amazing games? By accident. During one of the steam winter sales, when I had little money left, I started browsing the catalogue for something unique. Guess what I found? Birth of America for 1.5 EUR. I didn't think twice, and bought the game. I was astonished by it and searched for more.

I bought Rise of Prussia, BoA2 and Pride of Nations afterwards. Of course all of them on sale - you earned 15 EUR on me, instead of 0. Is that bad?

I am waiting for sale on Gamersgate for Napoleon's Campaigns and American Civil War a few years now. And I already lost my patience. Why are you closing yourself on market? You should start thinking global. I guess thousands of people in Russia would buy Revolution Under Siege, but not for 30 bucks! It's like 10-15% of a regular salary there!

Making big cut sales is not damaging value of your games - it allows you to open yourself to other markets. I am from Poland, and tossing 20 EUR on a game is a big deal. I would love to play more of your games, but it seems you just are not interested in a customer like me - to poor to buy your games. I am very sorry to hear such things, because I fallen in love with your games from the first sight. But it looks like it works just one way.

Holding high prices for your old games closes you to new fans. Somebody would buy a game he doesn't know for 5 EUR, and if he likes it, he would be more likely to buy a new games from you for full price. Nobody is going to risk 20 EUR for an unknown game, especially while there are hundres of other strategy games to choose from.

Once again, if not for a low price, I would never discover you and your games. And there are thousands of people like me. Thousands of people that will never buy a single game from you, because they can't afford them, or can't afford to risk 20 EUR on a franchise they don't know. Think about that.

You are not niche because you make "hardcore games". You are niche, because you are unwilling to change.

[Pocus]

Rise of Prussia and Pride of Nations have been offered through Steam by Paradox. It is true that a huge number of people bought it, but as it was at severely discounted price, it amounted to only a 'medium' level of sales, if you compare to a normal priced product. Side effect is that anybody and his cat and goldfish that could remotely been interested by these products have bought it, so the 'afterlife' of these 2 games is much more desert that our others games.

[keeveek]

I understand that. This is a problem you need to analize - if you want to stick with a far less number of fans and develop few of your games for many years, or if you want to make new games, like AAE and reach to more fans.

You seem to choose less people higher price, and if that idea suits you, I wish you good luck. You make awesome games, I am just sorry I can't afford to play them. I wish you all the best in the world. Cheers! :-)

When Paradox started, their games were niche as well - hardly anybody was playing EU1, Crusader Kings and HOI, at least here. But they managed to expand to a pretty big publisher. Of course there is downside of this - they started to publish games with a very short lifespan, but on the other hand, they now have money to make games as great as Crusader Kings 2 or EU4. They would never look this way, if not a success of their previous games, like Magicka.

And again - I wish you all the best, people. You made games that I loved. I will just stick with those I could afford. :-)

[ERISS]

Rise of Prussia and Pride of Nations have been offered through Steam by Paradox., so the 'afterlife' of these 2 games is much more desert that our others games.

Yes that was not nice for Ageod. The offer should occure on the oldest games.
But you didn't yet try GOG, as I told many times. You could sell here some of your oldest games, in the same time making advert for Ageod.
Battlefront made it since long, with its very first 2001' CombatMission. I'm sure it has brought consummers for more recent games on Battlefront website.
What prevented this with Ageod? Not good contract with GOG?

[Baris]

I think what differs here is the product rather than marketing method. Second version of ACW declared as the most anticipated game for the community. Where as it seems global conflicts matter most for people. No problem with that as long as the product have quality.
I came from no where rich but steam sales for 1.99 for any game especially seeing ROP and PON were pretty unfair !

[ST3V3 D4V3]

Steam will probably not sell anymore our products. As the general statement said (in News from Ageod), we don't feel it is a good thing in the long term to have games sold at 2 euros apiece (or even less, I saw ROP at 99 cents during a discount operation) because it means there is no way we can support on the long term these games.

I can appreciate a publisher/developer wanting to sell their product at whatever price they want. I can appreciate a publisher/developer not wanting to sell in a particular market, even if I personally think cutting out that market from your product is particularly wrong-headed, especially given that list price and discounts are dictated by the publisher/developer and not the platform.

What I can't abide is a publisher/developer outright lying in trying to justify their decision. The lowest price on Steam was $3.99 for Rise of Prussia, this past Winter Sale -- steamprices.com/us/app/42870/rise-of-prussia -- before dropping to $0 since it's no longer sold. While I could live with only being able to get the product from Slitherine direct or possibly GamersGate at an increased price, I can't in good faith support a company that is using false data and later a "well, at least we're not selling it at $80" mentality. Do you know who uses those tactics and is hated nearly universally by the gaming community for it? Electronic Arts. AGEOD lost all of my respect.

[keeveek]

I think what differs here is the product rather than marketing method. Second version of ACW declared as the most anticipated game for the community. Where as it seems global conflicts matter most for people. No problem with that as long as the product have quality.
I came from no where rich but steam sales for 1.99 for any game especially seeing ROP and PON were pretty unfair !

Why unfair? Well, it was quite sudden, I'll give you that. Making sales wisely can get you a lot of dough.
First of all, your game gets attention, because it's mentioned on the main page of steam, the largest digital distributor on earth. Secodnly, you approach a wide variety of gamers.

For example, when you release the game for 30EUR, you get money from all people who want the game for that price. Let's say, after 6 months, you make a 25% sale, and you get all the people who are willing to pay that. After a yeat you make 50% off, and you get more people. After two years you make 75% off and you basically managed to get to all the people who wanted the game already.

If you keep a 20 EUR price on your old and oldest games, like Birth of America 2, you shouldn't be surprised that you are niche. This is a basical marketing mistake. What is the right decision imho, is to give big discounts on the oldest game of your franchise, to hook up as many new gamers as you can, while offering your full price for a longer period for your newest games.

The most important thing is you gain new fans everytime you make a sale for your oldest products. Among these fans are people who didn't know about your games and now are willing to pay the full price for your new games. If you keep full price for all of your games, you only are making money on people who are already here. Wrong move, if you asked me. It creates a false reality when only a few people are interested in your "hardcore" game. When it's not true - a lot of people are playing your games. But only a part of them are willing to pay for them their current price. If you know what I mean.

[ERISS]

- steamprices.com -

Lol, shocking tool. pc games as market products on survey. Using this scavenger tool is already showing even fewer respect for pc gaming (i.e. and the devs).
It reminds Infinite Interactive (back independant), who can only do alimentary Puzzle Quest games now, hoping doing again Warlords strategy games.
I hope Ageod won't be compelled to such too, if consumers want to wait for their games selling for 1$.

[ST3V3 D4V3]

Lol, shocking tool. pc games as market products on survey. Using this scavenger tool is already showing even fewer respect for pc gaming.

A website that shows you historical prices is disrespectful to you? Every market has something like it, do you live under a rock?