Naval unit loss affect on National Will

[RGA]

Hi Calvinus,

What is the affect on National Will for losing a naval unit like Battleships and naval squadrons ? I couldn't see anything in the tables.

If I lose a battleship how much does it affect my National will ?

Regards,
Rob

[PhilThib]

The loss of Capital ships is a huge blow to NW.... IIRC it's 1 per unit, but not sure... in any case, avoid to lose them

[Random]

Rob,

I believe it is -1 NW per battleship, battlecruiser or old battleship and I do not think this is moddable at all.

In current game, June 1916 saw a major action in the North Sea where the RN lost five ships (Tiger, New Zealand, Orion, Bellephron, St. Vincent and Hercules) and I lost -5 NW for the next turn.

Sank German nine ships, (2 BC, 4 BB and 3 B) but was still declared the loser in the battle although fortunately have modded the applicable turn rule to mitigate the horrible lost battle penalty for Britain in the stock game. After the battle turn German NW was into the single digits so the AI seems to have taken a hit greater than that gained by the victory in battle.

During a Fall turn I lost -1 NW when Prince of Wales (B) hit a mine in the Med and France took a -1 NW hit when Danton (B) was lost in action against the Austrians later in the year.

-C

[RGA]

Thanks Chris,

Was that -5 in addition to the -4 for Britain losing a Naval battle or do you think it was included. The save files keep statistics on Battleships and squadrons lost so my intial thoughts were that these were the only ones that affected National Will however I was going to do some further investigating to see if I could understand what was going on.

The save file contains a line for each nation on how its National Will has changed for the current turn.

NationalWillChanges={1;40;37;37;0;0;0;0;0;-2;0;-1;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0}

I have only started looking at this so its not fully clear to me yet what each column is for specifically. The -2 was for combat losses (although the game informed me I had lost -3 for combat loses) and the other -1 I think is from a strike event which was played on me. Each of the other columns may apply to a specific reason for National Will gain/loss.

I also am puzzled by how the game determines the victor in Naval combat. I believe its not just loses but also damage that is taken into account but still looking at this also.

Will post more as I find it.

Thanks,
Rob

[RGA]

Advanced another turn after some heavy combat and lost -3 more from my National Will (for a running total of -5 from combat losses) and the save file now says

NationalWillChanges={1;40;34;34;0;0;0;0;0;-5;0;-1;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0}

So it looks like this is a complete record of your National Will changes through the game. This is good as you will be able to see what has driven it up and down.

[Random]

Rob,

Nice catch finding the Nationalwillchanges paragraph in the save files, wish we knew what the numbers mean. Anyway, I missed it and so well done to you!

I have modded out the -4 battle loss penalty for the RN, changing it -1 like everybody else. See Turnrule 240 in the GC2 and GC4 folders.

[color="Red"]240;TR_NavalDefeatNationalWillEffects;1;100;-;ENG;-4,1[/color]

to:

[color="SeaGreen"]240;TR_NavalDefeatNationalWillEffects;1;100;-;ENG;-1,1[/color]

Rationale for this is subjectively based on how I suspect the British government would have spun even a spectacular defeat of the Grand Fleet.

We can see how defeats at sea were handled politically after Coronel (determination to destroy Spee), the initial disappointment after Jutland (anger followed by acceptance and soon overall satisfaction in the results) and the October 1917 convoy disaster in the North Sea (the public was never told the facts, just the heroic last-stand fight of HMS Strongbow and Mary Rose).

On the other hand, the stock NW adjustment for the loss and commissioning of capital ships seems just right.

Although another topic all together, I believe (with plenty of evidence) that Jutland was an unambiguous RN victory in spite of the disparity in losses but one that was ultimately strategically irrelevant.

Have written elsewhere here how I too have no idea how the game computes the victor in a naval battle. Time after time have out killed the HSF and had them flee only to lose the battle and corresponding NW.

-C

[RGA]

Chris,

Found these in the gamesrules.csv table.

NBB;1;1;Naval Battles: National Will value for a damaged Modern Battleship (BB), Older Battleship (B) or Battlecruiser (BC)
NBC;3;1;Naval Battles: National Will value for a sunk Modern Battleship (BB) or Battlecruiser (BC)
NBD;2;1;Naval Battles: National Will value for a sunk Older Battleship (B)
NBE;1.5;1;Naval Battles: National Will value for a sunk Armored Cruiser (AC)
NBF;1;1;Naval Battles: National Will value for a sunk Light Cruiser (CL)

..so even these are moddable which is excellent. Would these figures agree with your results ?

Also this was in the same table.

NCW;1;1;National Will gain when finishing the construction of a BB or BC ship of a naval squadron

and

ST1;4;1;Die roll required for failing a 'critical hit' and 'naval survival' tests (applied to common naval squadrons)
ST2;6;1;Die roll required for failing a 'critical hit' and 'naval survival' tests (applied only on modern battleships and German battlecruisers)

That last one explains why those German Battlecruisers take all that damage but then refuse to sink.

With regards to Jutland it was spun in Germany as a tactical victory so may have raised morale there but I agree that overall it was a strategic British victory. With the failure to obtain any parity with the Royal Navy the German Navy returned to sumbarine warfare.

Rob

[Random]

Rob,

Would these figures agree with your results ?

They look about right as I recall except that the National Will Changes do not seem to match in the save files. Indeed, after reviewing all the .SAV files back to Jan-Feb 1915 I could not even find the Battle of the North Sea but I know it happened and a temporary lifting of the Fog of War shows that German naval losses have been heavy and are as I remember from the battle log.

Curiouser and curiouser...

I'm not entirely sure what has happened here and sure wish there was a guide to what the numbers in the Nationalwillchanges lines actually represent.

Had forgotten all about GameRules.csv; D'oh! there are some other potentially powerful tweaks that can come from there including;

[color="DarkGreen"]RP6;0;1;Must reinforcements be placed only on major cities? (1: yes, 0: no)[/color]

Default value is 1 = Yes but I modded this some time ago since took it as a given that over the course of a one or two month turn, a modern industrial state could mobilize anywhere within its borders in game terms.

Running with the AI Log feature enabled provides valuable details as to what is happening during a turn but I have found it creates all sorts of other issues with game freezes, CTD's and hanging during combat resolutions. I can seldom get more than one game turn out of a session when it is activated in the WW1G configurator.

-C

[calvinus]

Running with the AI Log feature enabled provides valuable details as to what is happening during a turn but I have found it creates all sorts of other issues with game freezes, CTD's and hanging during combat resolutions. I can seldom get more than one game turn out of a session when it is activated in the WW1G configurator.

The freezes and CTDs are caused by the antivirus that detects the WW1 logging activity as a potential threat, because the logs are in html format.

Use AVG like me and AI can log with no problem...

[RGA]

I've not tried logging, will give it a try.

With regards to dertermining who wins a naval battle I think the following happens.

1. Die (or dice) are rolled for each side.
2. These results are then modified by losses/damage
3. May also be modified by a penalty for fleeing
4. May also be modified for who is left in control of sea zone.

I have ran away in the Jutland scenario as the Central powers before a shot is fired and have been decalred the winner and loser on different occasions which makes me think there is a random element.

Maybe Calvinus could explain in more detail

Rob