Italy declares war, and it all goes wrong for them

[StephenT]

I know, that's pretty historical, right? But not this way, I don't think.


I've been trying a grand campaign as the Allies, and run into a problem with Italy. I managed to get them on my side earlier than normal with my diplomats. "Great!", I thought. But then I looked at the map...

The Italian army appears spread all over northern Italy, presumably in its peacetime locations. The Austro-Hungarian army begins deployed right along the border. Yes, it's locked in position - but the moment Italy joins the war, the Austrian units are unlocked. The result is inevitable. The Italians have to frantically rail-move all the way from Milan and Rome; the Austrians can simply step across the border. It's a race the Italians simply can't win.

End result? The turn Italy declared war, the Austro-Hungarians managed to seize multiple provinces from them. Without a shot being fired, they captured as much land as historically they did after Caporetto, all the way up to the Piave. Surely that's not the intended result? I don't think there's anything I could have done differently, though if I missed something obvious please let me know...


Can I suggest that either the Italian units appear deployed in their wartime positions - I suppose you'd need two alternative set-ups, depending on whether they join the Allies or the Central Powers - or alternatively that the French and Austro-Hungarian border armies are not unlocked until the turn after the Italians join the war, giving the Italians a chance to reach their mobilisation positions?

(Also, I don't know what would happen if I were playing the Central Powers instead and declared war on Italy - would I likewise have found the Italian army in its barracks and leaving the Isonzo frontier unprotected?)

[CSS]

The Italians fought 11 battles at the Isazno, until finally the 12th against a collapsed AH empire suceeeded.

So getting them in underprepared and being in a jam should not be a suprise.

LOL

[Chris Ferrous]

Stephen T

Same happened to me, and this was one of the recommendations I was going to make when I finished my full compaign; either give the Italians 'off to war' start positions for joining as Entente or Central Powers, or as you suggest one turn grace during which they can move up. The latter may be easier and work out for the best although like many things in the game it may seem a bit forced.

Albeit on a smaller scale, a similar thing happened when Greece entered on my side also since Bulgaria was already fighting against the Entente. So I suppose there must be lots of other small nations that would be affected similarly.

[Mitra]

I suggest to leave austrian troops blocked just they are attacked or to first strategic redeploy. Austrian strategy was defensive on Italian front just to 1916, they retreat at the start to stronger positions.

Is Isonzo not Isazno.

For english speaker I suggest to purchase "The White War" of Mark Thompson, a good book

"
Some of the most savage fighting of the Great War happened on the
front where Italy attacked the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Around a
million men died in battle, of wounds and disease or as prisoners. Until
the last campaign, the ratio of blood shed to territory gained was even
worse than on the Western Front. Imagine the flat or gently rolling
horizon of Flanders tilting at 30 or 40 degrees, made of grey limestone
that turns blinding white in summer. At the top, Austrian machine guns
are tucked behind rows of barbed wire and a parapet of stones. At the
bottom, Italians crouch in a shallow trench. The few outsiders who
witnessed this fighting believed that ‘Nobody who hasn’t seen it can
guess what fighting is needed to go up slopes [like these].’
"

[Random]

Mitra wrote:

For english speaker I suggest to purchase "The White War" of Mark Thompson, a good book

Ordered it today, it has been on my wish list for some time. There has been a consistant trend by English language military historians (particularly British) to denigrate Italy's war efforts, my understanding is that Mr. Thompson treats the subject with objectivity and fairness. We'll soon see...

Back on subject, it seems to me that the initial Italian deployment is the same whether Italy joins the CP or Entente. Italian deployment appears to be fixed in the [color="SeaGreen"]Data\DB\Units.csv[/color] file and reinforcements starting in August 1914 in the specific [color="seagreen"]Data\DB\Goldscenarios\[scenario name]\Reinforcements.csv[/color] file so the deployment is probably moddable to some extent.

In my opinion though, modding an war with Austria deployment would be incompatable should the situation result in a war with France. I could not see a way to provide for different initial deployments based on variable war scenarios but that does not mean there isn't one.

The current deployment situation is by no means ideal but in most cases (in my experiance anyway) the Italians can act quickly enough and are initially strong enough to limit Austrian incursions (due to an agressive CP AI) and then throw them out of Italian territory before the end of the summer of 1915.

Hopefully Calvinus will wander by with some insights.

[calvinus]

This setup reflects the boardgame rules, of course. Historically, Italian forces invaded plains and valleys left by the Austrians who took refuge on the mountains. The numerical superiority of the Italian army was indeed nullified by the better defensive stronghold of the Austrians, and by the better quality of troops, of course.

In boardgame / PC game terms this is not properly replicated, to my opinion, because the advantage to the Austrian forces is a bit too evident...
In fact, when we played the boardgame, we introduced a house rule: Austrians locked during the first turn.

[Random]

This setup reflects the boardgame rules, of course. Historically, Italian forces invaded plains and valleys left by the Austrians who took refuge on the mountains. The numerical superiority of the Italian army was indeed nullified by the better defensive stronghold of the Austrians, and by the better quality of troops, of course.

In boardgame / PC game terms this is not properly replicated, to my opinion, because the advantage to the Austrian forces is a bit too evident...
In fact, when we played the boardgame, we introduced a house rule: Austrians locked during the first turn.

So I take it that one could mod the assorted Austrian warplans to lock the units on the Italian border but with variable Italian war entery this would seem to be a bad idea and the best course of action would seem to be just suck it up and carry on. But this could be a valid house rule if playing multiplayer.

My experiance is that the Austrian's generally invade but never stay long and the situation stabilizes in a couple of turns when they are driven out of Italy proper.