The Indestructable BEF?

[bk6583]

I have been chasing and attacking BEF for at least 7 months - and this in a capitulated France. Finaly cornered them and saw they were out of supply. The pop up says on the 2nd consecuitve turn the out of supply units are destroyed. Yet, at the start of the 2nd consecutive turn there they still sit. When I activated the I and II German armies (got them to cooperate) nothing happens. This is a follow-on to an earlier post - what am I missing??? Also once again can't creat a separate Map RAR so I've tried embedding it in the Quicksave game file.

[calvinus]

I believe the cause is that HQ I and HQ II are stacked in the same area and they grant supply each other, even if the area is enemy controlled. To be fixed. I'm studying a solution...

[calvinus]

Well I investigated more carefully. The two British HQs are not out of supply, they are encircled by enemy forces, check carefully what the tooltip says about the () sprite...

So the two stacks are supplied by Boulogne, that is under French control, even if garrisoned by a German stack.

As I said, the game engine considers only the control of areas when checking supply, not only the presence of forces. The purpose is to keep game performance at a reasonable level, because if we introduce a check also on stacks, the game can become really slow...

[bk6583]

Calvinus,

I know you said you'd look into it but the BEF wierdness continues. Not only is this the 3rd consecutive turn for them to be isolated, but the last turn two BEF arty units (no corps units) moved into Lille and forced the German GHQ AND and a German infantry corps to retreat!! This is driving me nuts! If you look to the east, several Russian corps that had been isolated for two turns in fact were destroyed.

Other questions regarding this save. In Serbia, I successfully attacked a Serbian corps in Pirot and forced a retreat. Thing is, except for one area controlled by Bulgaria (neutral) I had this corps surrounded. Yet it pops up in Kapoanic! Can a corps retreat through area with enemy corps in them or through neutral country territory?

What's with Luxemborg? I own one area outright and yet when I moved a corps into the remaining area on Luxemborg (name escapes me) at the start of the turn I don't control it. I also own all of Belgium as best as I can tell yet I've never seen a message stating that it capitulated.

Lastly, I've tried reading how diplomacy works but I'm still missing something. I have ambassadors in Italy and Bulgaria but every turn they just sit there and I don't seem to be able to do anything with them. How do I try to influence a neutral country? I'd love to get Bulgaria on my side to finally finish off those hardy and pesky Serbians.

[06 Maestro]

Calvinus,
Lastly, I've tried reading how diplomacy works but I'm still missing something. I have ambassadors in Italy and Bulgaria but every turn they just sit there and I don't seem to be able to do anything with them. How do I try to influence a neutral country? I'd love to get Bulgaria on my side to finally finish off those hardy and pesky Serbians.

Have you tried the "sending on mission" or "ask for audience" options in the diplomatic window? The diplomats don't do much good without the missions.

Bulgaria should be fairly easy to get into the CP. You can merge the existing diplomats that are assigned there already, then add another. After you get three of those units in there use the ask for audience button-you should have them in the war pretty quick.

Italy is another matter. It can easily go the other way when you try a mission. Also, there is a penalty of sending Austrian (IIRC) diplomats to Italy-so no point in doing that. That particular penalty is dropped if the A/H Empire give the South Tyrolia to Italy (again, IIRC).

Generally speaking, the missions should give you a benefit, but try to have 3 diplomats before using the mission. Success is not guaranteed-things can go the bad sometimes. Nothing ventured, nothing gained though.

[calvinus]

I know you said you'd look into it but the BEF wierdness continues. Not only is this the 3rd consecutive turn for them to be isolated... If you look to the east, several Russian corps that had been isolated for two turns in fact were destroyed.

Read carefully my post, you can see that the Britons are not isolated. Read the tooltip of the () sprite printed over the HQ card, it says are encircled: this is an operational situation, that gives you bonus in battle, but that does not match with out-of-suppy or isolation. The supply is now granted by Boulogne area.

[calvinus]

Other questions regarding this save. In Serbia, I successfully attacked a Serbian corps in Pirot and forced a retreat. Thing is, except for one area controlled by Bulgaria (neutral) I had this corps surrounded. Yet it pops up in Kapoanic! Can a corps retreat through area with enemy corps in them or through neutral country territory?

Maybe Bulgaria is granting right of supply to the Allies. To be investigated.

What's with Luxemborg? I own one area outright and yet when I moved a corps into the remaining area on Luxemborg (name escapes me) at the start of the turn I don't control it. I also own all of Belgium as best as I can tell yet I've never seen a message stating that it capitulated.

Belgium has a -2 penalty modifier to capitulation tests. It's quite hard to make it capitulated! And it's historically coherent...

[bk6583]

Calvinus,

Ok - Major apologies for not reading your post more carefully and obviously still not fully grasping the rules. That said, it's still weird and ahistorical that those BEF units are completely surrounded by my German units, in a capitulated country, and yet they are still fully combat functional!

Let me try to ask several different questions related to the same subject. How do two 'support' units, i.e., artillery, without any corps, move into an area and force an infantry corps to retreat? There never was any combat - at the end of the turn I was informed that my German infantry corps in Lille was forced to retreat "far away" to Ypres?? Did the presence of the GHQ in LIlle along with the infantry corps affect this?

I have reapeatedly attacked these BEF units and always get the same result. One round of combat is conducted and the BEF "retreats". Except those BEF units stay in exectly the same area - even though I have overwhelming forces in the same area. Those BEF units in essense, turn after after turn, retreat after one round, and stay camped out in the same area right along with my own overwhelming forces. Please tell what aspects of the game rules allow this.

[bk6583]

Have you tried the "sending on mission" or "ask for audience" options in the diplomatic window? The diplomats don't do much good without the missions.

Bulgaria should be fairly easy to get into the CP. You can merge the existing diplomats that are assigned there already, then add another. After you get three of those units in there use the ask for audience button-you should have them in the war pretty quick

.

That's my frustration. The "Ask for Audience" button is never active. After doing the "Merge" function, I sent two '3' level diplomats "On a Mission" to Italy and Bulgaria repsectively almost from the start of the campaign. Yet turn after turn "Ask for Audience" never activates. Basically, those diplomatics just sit there turn after turn. So obviously I'm not fully getting how the diplomacy function really works. Tried sending economic aid to both countries but that button is also never active. Help!

[06 Maestro]

.

That's my frustration. The "Ask for Audience" button is never active. After doing the "Merge" function, I sent two '3' level diplomats "On a Mission" to Italy and Bulgaria repsectively almost from the start of the campaign. Yet turn after turn "Ask for Audience" never activates. Basically, those diplomatics just sit there turn after turn. So obviously I'm not fully getting how the diplomacy function really works. Tried sending economic aid to both countries but that button is also never active. Help!

Are you attempting the diplo missions during the diplomatic phase? If so, and you have the diplomats concerned highlighted while attempting to order a mission, then it sounds like your game is broken.

The "send on mission" assignment can be given at the same diplo phase as the movement of the concerned diplomats. The "ask for audience" mission may be used in any subsequent diplo phase after the diplomats have been assigned.

[calvinus]

Let me try to ask several different questions related to the same subject. How do two 'support' units, i.e., artillery, without any corps, move into an area and force an infantry corps to retreat? There never was any combat - at the end of the turn I was informed that my German infantry corps in Lille was forced to retreat "far away" to Ypres?? Did the presence of the GHQ in LIlle along with the infantry corps affect this?

No idea, I should debug this stuff, do you have a save just before this happening?

I have reapeatedly attacked these BEF units and always get the same result. One round of combat is conducted and the BEF "retreats". Except those BEF units stay in exectly the same area - even though I have overwhelming forces in the same area. Those BEF units in essense, turn after after turn, retreat after one round, and stay camped out in the same area right along with my own overwhelming forces. Please tell what aspects of the game rules allow this.

I will debug this too using your save. In theory, if unable to retreat anywhere, these stacks should be destroyed.

[calvinus]

.

That's my frustration. The "Ask for Audience" button is never active. After doing the "Merge" function, I sent two '3' level diplomats "On a Mission" to Italy and Bulgaria repsectively almost from the start of the campaign. Yet turn after turn "Ask for Audience" never activates. Basically, those diplomatics just sit there turn after turn. So obviously I'm not fully getting how the diplomacy function really works. Tried sending economic aid to both countries but that button is also never active. Help!

So if you select a diplomat (on the left panel), what does say the tooltip on the "Ask for Audience" button?

[bk6583]

No idea, I should debug this stuff, do you have a save just before this happening?

Darn - sorry - I don't.

[calvinus]

I tested again diplomacy, no bug in sending missions.

I fixed the retreat bug for BEF: in your case it should reatreat to the nearest supply source (Boulogne) taking additional big losses...

Next patch 1.08K.

[bk6583]

Calvinus,

I have the 'k' patch installed. I see the two arty units in Lille have 'disappeared' (destroyed?). So now I attack the two BEF corps and arty in Hazebrouck and get the usual one round and 'retreat'. I then see that these BEF units retreat to the port just south of Dieppe! This goes back to one of my earlier questions where you made a distinction for supply purposes between 'controlling' an area and just having a corps occupying it. Can a unit retreat through an area not controlled by the other side (controlled by a capitulated France in this case - Artois) but which is occupied by enemy corps. The BEF was completely surrounded - how did it retreat?

[calvinus]

Yes, it can retreat through enemy areas as special occurrence, provided it's a HQ or GHQ only, and it suffers additional heavy losses.

[bk6583]

Calvinus,

Sorry but I'm back. After one year the BEF, in an incredible feat of arms, continues to fight dozens of battles against overwhelming German forces in a surrendered France, always retreating and living to fight again! This time two turns earlier I had it whittled down to one arty unit and the Haig HQ. The following turn I moved in for the kill (the arty unit was in the port south of Dieppe - name always escapes me) - I moved I Corps into that area and NOTHING happened. It only gets better - I'm then informed when the next turn rolls around that the German III Corps was forced to retreat from Bolougne! When I look at that area there is now a depleted British infantry corps stacked with Haig and the arty unit. I'm going to surrender to Britain next turn.

[calvinus]

Hello, I can try your save but I already know very little can be done. Your current situation is a bit rare, but it can occur yes. The main problem is that France surrendered and provides right of passage to both sides, and I can't do elseway... A solution could be to force a retreat by sea (to Britain) for these particular cases, but what about side-effects? Think of a retreat from Greece, for example...

[Tamas]

Maybe an event could be scripted for France's surrender?

[calvinus]

Maybe an event could be scripted for France's surrender?

This would require a new bunch of code anyway, because actually no scripted routine can force such a withdrawal by sea.

[patrat]

i dislike surrendered country's giving right of passage to both sides. it leads to weird stuff like this. Ive run into situations like this myself.

how about the surrendering country gives rights of passage to just the conquering side? is this possible? or am i missing something?

if it is possible, then what would happened in cases like this, is that the bef would have to beat a quick retreat to the coast and evacuate, or face certain destruction. this sounds much more realistic then what is happening now.

[calvinus]

i dislike surrendered country's giving right of passage to both sides. it leads to weird stuff like this. Ive run into situations like this myself.

how about the surrendering country gives rights of passage to just the conquering side? is this possible? or am i missing something?

if it is possible, then what would happened in cases like this, is that the bef would have to beat a quick retreat to the coast and evacuate, or face certain destruction. this sounds much more realistic then what is happening now.

The rule was added before the Gold edition, for both sides to avoid weird situations.

Right of Passage and Grant of Supply are two separate rules. We could grant Right of Passage and Grant Supply (edited) to the winnig side and only the Right of Passage to the losing side...

I will try to tweak the save of bk6583 in order to get such result...
Then he should test if some (more) weird side-effect arises!

[calvinus]

The rule was added before the Gold edition, for both sides to avoid weird situations.

Right of Passage and Grant of Supply are two separate rules. We could grant both to the winnig side and only the Right of Passage to the losing side...

I will try to tweak the save of bk6583 in order to get such result...
Then he should test if some (more) weird side-effect arises!

Herewith enclosed you can find the savegame of bk6583 where I removed the rule of Supply Granted by France to the Entente powers.

Let's see if something improves.

[bk6583]

I am ever so grateful Sir! And I continue to be enormously impressed with your attention and action on this forum!!!

[Franciscus]

I have not encountered this problem yet, but I would like to add some thoughts, if I may.

I think the changes proposed by Calvinus make perfect sense, although I would like also to know how it worked in the boardgame and Philthib's views on it.

Nevertheless, "historicity" and "plausibility" are very important things to me. And regarding an hypothetical French surrender, we actually know what would happen to the British army - because that was what happened in WW2 !

After France's defeat, what did the British forces do ? They certainly did not stay in France and fought to the last man, they attempted to retreat to England as fast as possible, trying to save as many men as possible in the process. Did the defeated French forces opposed their retreat ? No, so in fact we could say France gave them "right of passage". Were they supplied and did they get logistical support from the defeated French forces ? I think not, although the local population and some units could have given some little help. But the British were mainly dependent on their own means, and needed a coastal port both to get supplies and to escape. So, we could saythat France did not "Grant" them supply. And what would have happened if Dunkirk (or other British held port) were cut-off by Germany's forces ? - most certainly a quick catastrophe to British arms. So, if we manage to simulate something like this in WW1 game, I think it would be OK

[calvinus]

Agreed with Franciscus, I hope the removal of the rule Grant Supply by France to UK will make the English AI willing to retreat by sea to the British isles. So let's wait a feedback by bk6583.

[patrat]

though i used the term right of passage, i meant passage of supply. so i agree whole heartily with calvinus proposed fix.

[patrat]

I have not encountered this problem yet, but I would like to add some thoughts, if I may.

I think the changes proposed by Calvinus make perfect sense, although I would like also to know how it worked in the boardgame and Philthib's views on it.

Nevertheless, "historicity" and "plausibility" are very important things to me. And regarding an hypothetical French surrender, we actually know what would happen to the British army - because that was what happened in WW2 !

After France's defeat, what did the British forces do ? They certainly did not stay in France and fought to the last man, they attempted to retreat to England as fast as possible, trying to save as many men as possible in the process. Did the defeated French forces opposed their retreat ? No, so in fact we could say France gave them "right of passage". Were they supplied and did they get logistical support from the defeated French forces ? I think not, although the local population and some units could have given some little help. But the British were mainly dependent on their own means, and needed a coastal port both to get supplies and to escape. So, we could saythat France did not "Grant" them supply. And what would have happened if Dunkirk (or other British held port) were cut-off by Germany's forces ? - most certainly a quick catastrophe to British arms. So, if we manage to simulate something like this in WW1 game, I think it would be OK

good points.

i would also like to add that in 1914, just prior to the battle of the marne, sir john french was so convinced that the french were beat that he plans to retreat to the channel ports. the british government in the form of kitchner i believe, had to order him back into the fight.

[calvinus]

Right before waiting any feedback from bk6583, I introduced the following change in game rules for the next patch (1.08L):

- Surrendered or capitulated nations do not grant anymore any supply to former allies

[bk6583]

Well Calvinus, in the saved game you sent back to me your fix appears to have worked - no more BEF in surrenered France.