AI too obstinate in sending his all his Corps despite the odds?

[Drakken]

After watching AI playing battles against itself numerous times, especially between the Frenchs and the Germans, I must admit that I feel sometimes that the AI is sending its Corps too easily to butchery despite all military common sense. I've seen the French sent flipped Corps after flipped Corps into Mulhouse for rounds after the Germans had acquired the "numerical superiority" bonus. Other times, I've seen the same behavior even when the attacker had only flipped Corps remaining, against three or four full Corps of overwhelming better quality for the Germans.

I know I have commented earlier this week about the AI being way too obstinate about sending its Corps, even flipped Corps, to battle in face of a numerically superior enemy, that perhaps it was due to the Obstinate rating. But I've seen this kind of behavior when the AI had reached way beyond the Leader's Obtinacy rating, and it worries me. A lot of battles finish because there's no more Corps to send to the meat grinder, while the Obstinacy is supposed to be a number of rounds that both player and AI has to send troops even though the situation is catastrophic and the player wishes to retreat.

But right now, there's no need for Obstinacy for the AI, because it will send all its Corps anyway until there's no more left.

I can rationalize in my head by saying that it's just because it's August 1914 and the French had this "culte de l'offensive" going on. But still, perhaps there is some improvement to be made to ensure that the AI, basically, leaders to recognize that it is most probably beaten and it is time to cut its losses to battle another day. After all, destroyed Corps cost EP and RP to build back, and after a while these can be unbalancing in the long run if the AI has to rebuild units it could have saved by just knowing when to call it quits.

Am I being too sensitive or is there room for improvement? Should I, as player, imitate the AI and send all my Corps even though I know I'm beaten, or as a player do I have an inherent advantage by allowing myself to stop when I know the battle cannot be won?

[rattlesnake]

The French corps does this,sending all the cops in the war.After several battles ,it declares neutral.Sometime the English corps don't.They know when to retreat.

[calvinus]

What's the AI Aggressivity level currently set on your PC?

[rattlesnake]

What's the AI Aggressivity level currently set on your PC?

The default .I do not change it .May be the medium.

[calvinus]

No, the default values is actually the max. Try setting one level less.

[rattlesnake]

No, the default values is actually the max. Try setting one level less.

I am telling the truth.Please see the details in my battle with AI.
Oh,it is actually the max.

[Drakken]

What's the AI Aggressivity level currently set on your PC?

When I saw what I reported, my AI Aggressiveness and my Difficulty Level were both at 2, and AI Full Behavior and All Time for AI options were selected.

[calvinus]

My advice is to set:
- Difficulty level 4+ (perhaps your AI is underevaluating the enemy forces in battle)
- Aggressiveness level 4.

I always use these settings and I do not see a too obstinate attitude in battles. Only sometimes in 1914... but almost tolerable.

[Drakken]

My advice is to set:
- Difficulty level 4+ (perhaps your AI is underevaluating the enemy forces in battle)
- Aggressiveness level 4.

I always use these settings and I do not see a too obstinate attitude in battles. Only sometimes in 1914... but almost tolerable.

On the other hand, wouldn't that give advantages to the AI in other aspects (FOW bonus, moral check, RP placement, etc)?

[Tamas]

The most important thing here is the attacking general's obstinancy. the AI may have no choice but to attack

[Drakken]

The most important thing here is the attacking general's obstinancy. the AI may have no choice but to attack

That's what I thought at first, but I counted the number of rounds the AI attacks, for comparison, and it reached constantly above the Leader's Obstinacy rating, even if its Corps were all flipped and the defender either exhibited next to no flipped Corps or the "numerical superiority" bonus.

The attacks stop either if the defender has lost or the attacker has exhausted/destroyed all its Corps.

[Tamas]

That's what I thought at first, but I counted the number of round the AI attacks and it consistantly reach over the Leader's Obstinacy rating, even if its Corps are all flipped and the defender exhibits next to no flipped Corps or the "numerical superiority" bonus.

Hmmm, okay then. This hasn't really been a problem for me though, altough personally, I also like to push attacks sometimes

The tactical battle has almost poker-like mechanics in terms of playing the other guy's "hand" as well as yours, its not a problem if the AI is not too predictable, even if it gets too stubborn at times

[Drakken]

Hmmm, okay then. This hasn't really been a problem for me though, altough personally, I also like to push attacks sometimes

The tactical battle has almost poker-like mechanics in terms of playing the other guy's "hand" as well as yours, its not a problem if the AI is not too predictable, even if it gets too stubborn at times

Oh, I agree that sometimes it is warranted. Like I said, I can understand it if is a "French-only" 1914 thing because of the cult of the offensive, as it was indeed Joffre's doctrine, among others at the time, to send Corps in brutal frontal attacks that were repelled by the Germans with enormous casualties.

Yesterday during a test run, I did see Metz fall because the French had some bad rolls first, but continued nonetheless with only flipped Corps the AI made some super rolls that allowed him to steal the battle from a winning Germany. But it is the exception that confirms the rule, in that most of these types of attacks were abysmally lost by the French, one of them with 5 Corps completely destroyed without OOB, which means they have to be rebought.

My worry, is that the AI will continually sent all its Corps in meatgrinders it cannot possibly win because it always decide to fight to the bitter end even for tertiary objectives, well passed the Leader's Obstinacy. If after a few rounds the defender has the numerical advantage, is positioned good defensive terrain, and has next to no damaged Corps, these are "objective" reasons to deduct it is the time to stop the attack and regroup, fetch more Corps from the sides or the rear, and pursue next month.

Plus, if the player can retreat but the AI is "wired" not to do so or to pursue assault to the bitter end without regard to Obstinacy, it gives an unfair advantage to the player.

[calvinus]

5 corps completely destroyed?
Are you sure they weren't simply out of combat?

When you see "destroyed" only (red coloured text on screen), the unit is destroyed.
When you see "destroyed" + "out of combat" texts, the unit is out of combat and returns as reinforcement during next turn.

In any case, we can study a modding to improve the AI think:

AIParamsTable .xls /.csv DB:
increase the value of LR4-LR5 from 2.0 to 3.0

This will make battle AI more willing to retreat when the amount of destroyed/out-of-combat corps become high.

Edit: otherwise we can set..
LR4 (destroyed) = 3.0
LR5 (out-of-combat) = 2.5

[Drakken]

No, they weren't out of combat, but destroyed.

5 Destroyed, 0 Out of Combat. I thought it was a fluke of battle of AI vs AI, as it was the first and only time until now I had ever seen such a butchery.

Sadly, I do not have any save game nor any pic readily available. But when I saw that, it gave me the idea to post here about this issue.

[calvinus]

Indeed I never saw such a blood battle on West Front. On East Front, the Mujik units of Russia bring often to such results...

Can you try modding the LR4 param and report me if the AI works better?

[Drakken]

Indeed I never saw such a blood battle on West Front. On East Front, the Mujik units of Russia bring often to such results...

Can you try modding the LR4 param and report me if the AI works better?

Yeah, damned Mujiks indeed, as I am playing Russia.

I'll change them and post you a sample of battle reports tonight (Eastern time) to see if they make any sense.

[rattlesnake]

That's what I thought at first, but I counted the number of rounds the AI attacks, for comparison, and it reached constantly above the Leader's Obstinacy rating, even if its Corps were all flipped and the defender either exhibited next to no flipped Corps or the "numerical superiority" bonus.

The attacks stop either if the defender has lost or the attacker has exhausted/destroyed all its Corps.

Sometimes ,you can detect what's the AI's plan by some cards,you can see clearly where it is going to .On the head of it's icon there are signs. I think the AI mostly wants to take the strategy place not the HQ.

[rattlesnake]

No, they weren't out of combat, but destroyed.

5 Destroyed, 0 Out of Combat. I thought it was a fluke of battle of AI vs AI, as it was the first and only time until now I had ever seen such a butchery.

Sadly, I do not have any save game nor any pic readily available. But when I saw that, it gave me the idea to post here about this issue.

5 destroyed?That seems incredible.That means 5 cops are destroyed.None of them are wounded or out of battle or something else.

[rattlesnake]

Indeed I never saw such a blood battle on West Front. On East Front, the Mujik units of Russia bring often to such results...

Can you try modding the LR4 param and report me if the AI works better?

You discriminate against Russia? Or the east ?Or the uneducated?

[Drakken]

You discriminate against Russia? Or the east ?Or the uneducated?

Nah, calvinus is speaking the historical truth.

Most Russian soldiers that fought at Tannenberg and in East Prussia, and many of their NCOs as well, were conscripted illiterate peasants (moujiks). Many of them didn't have shoes, boots, or even rifles, because the mobilization was done so fast that almost no thought was given to logistics, so they could respect their promise to Poincaré that they would march on the 15th day of mobilization.

The problem wasn't the equipment itself. By 1914 Russia's military equipment was getting on par with the continental mainland, and the Mosin-Nagant M1891 was on the way on becoming the standard rifle (all the way to World War II, it was the standard rifle in 1941 as well) although production quotas were difficult to deliver at first and production had to be exported to the US.

Also, I think most of the war problems for Russia were put too much on Sukhomlinov's back as a scape goat. He wasn't a genius, he had serious flaws, but for one of Rasputin's cronies I believe he tried in good faith with what he had, and coping the factions both in the military and around the Czar.

Russia's main problem in WW1 could be resumed in three words: logistics, command, Rasputin (and Alexandra).

[rattlesnake]

At that time ,they have not finnished slavery in Russia.So the production is low far behind the west European. Maybe in the WWII the situation is different.Russia has technology advantage in military area.

[Drakken]

At that time ,they have not finnished slavery in Russia.So the production is low far behind the west European. Maybe in the WWII the situation is different.Russia has technology advantage in military area.

Serfdom was abolished since 1861, and some level of industrial boom was slowly occuring, especially around mining production and factories. I agree that very few peasants owned their land, and workers didn't enjoy the type of social security their German Krupp counterparts in Essen were enjoying for their hard labor.

Anyway, it is the type of discussion to have in another thread.

[rattlesnake]

Serfdom was abolished since 1861, and some level of industrial boom was slowly occuring, especially around mining production and factories. I agree that very few peasants owned their land, and workers didn't enjoy the type of social security their German Krupp counterparts in Essen were enjoying for their hard labor.

Anyway, it is the type of discussion to have in another thread.

You mean the German company pays for the Russian workers?
If that is true,it is wonderful .They earn a salary of the West European ,and spend it at a low price level in Russia.
Even the well-known Benz company produces munitions.German also has technology advantage in the military area in WW II.

[Drakken]

You mean the German company pays for the Russian workers?
If that is true,it is wonderful .They earn a salary of the West European ,and spend it at a low price level in Russia.

No, they didn't. Krupp, and other German industrialists, hired good German workers in Germany. But Essen was de facto owned by Krupp, a fully equipped city with schools, churches, hospitals, kindergardens, etc., that were funded or subsidized by Krupp to keep its employees happy.

In general, Wilhelmine Germany had one of the most advanced social security nets in industrialized countries before WW1, although workers still had to work 12 hours per day in rude conditions.

[rattlesnake]

No, they didn't. Krupp, and other German industrialists, hired good German workers in Germany. But Essen was de facto owned by Krupp, a fully equipped city with schools, churches, hospitals, kindergardens, etc., that were funded or subsidized by Krupp to keep its employees happy.

So Essen is a heavy industrial city in Ruhr area.
Schools,churches,hospitals,kindergartens are basic facilities for a city,which can not be conneted with the spirit of the labors.

In general, Wilhelmine Germany had one of the most advanced social security nets in industrialized countries before WW1, although workers still had to work 12 hours per day in rude conditions.

Maybe the working conditions in Germany is no that bad as you mentioned.

[Drakken]

So, I have run a turn on my save game in August 1914.

Settings were :

AI Aggressiveness 4
Difficulty Level 4

LR4 (destroyed) = 3.0
LR5 (out-of-combat) = 3.0
First battle : Morhange
Note : AI Attacker attacked to the bitter end and stopped only when no more Corps was remaining.



Second battle : Colmar
Note: Witnessed a Retreat by AI Attacker, but only with one flipped Corps remaining.



Third Battle : Mulhouse
Note : AI Attacker attacked to the bitter end and stopped only when no more Corps was remaining.



Fourth Battle : Metz
Note : Bitter end. Continued to attack with more than one Corps even after reaching 0.0 RP, so lost all to Morale checks..

No screenshot

Fifth Battle : Luxemburg
Note : AI Retreat as soon as RP reaches 0.0 with two flipped Corps remaining.

[rattlesnake]

No, they didn't. Krupp, and other German industrialists, hired good German workers in Germany. But Essen was de facto owned by Krupp, a fully equipped city with schools, churches, hospitals, kindergardens, etc., that were funded or subsidized by Krupp to keep its employees happy.

In general, Wilhelmine Germany had one of the most advanced social security nets in industrialized countries before WW1, although workers still had to work 12 hours per day in rude conditions.

So, I have run a turn on my save game in August 1914.

Settings were :

AI Aggressiveness 4
Difficulty Level 4

LR4 (destroyed) = 3.0
LR5 (out-of-combat) = 3.0
First battle : Morhange
Note : AI Attacker attacked to the bitter end and stopped only when no more Corps was remaining.



Second battle : Colmar
Note: Witnessed a Retreat by AI Attacker, but only with one flipped Corps remaining.



Third Battle : Mulhouse
Note : AI Attacker attacked to the bitter end and stopped only when no more Corps was remaining.



Fourth Battle : Metz
Note : Bitter end. Continued to attack with more than one Corps even after reaching 0.0 RP, so lost all to Morale checks..

No screenshot

Fifth Battle : Luxemburg
Note : AI Retreat as soon as RP reaches 0.0 with two flipped Corps remaining.

RP is the main reason of AI's retreating.But it does not mean,when RP reaches 0 ,AI retreats.

[calvinus]

Be sure you have saved the modded CSV file into the Data/DB folder.

[Drakken]

Be sure you have saved the modded CSV file into the Data/DB folder.

I am sure, here is what I have when I open the AIParamsTable.csv file :

LR1;1.0;1;Land retreat tactical situation calculation: multiplier applied to each wounded unit
LR2;2.0;1;Land retreat tactical situation calculation: multiplier applied to each disorganized unit
LR3;0.0;1;Land retreat tactical situation calculation: multiplier applied to each shaken unit
LR4;3.0;1;Land retreat tactical situation calculation: multiplier applied to each destroyed unit
LR5;3.0;1;Land retreat tactical situation calculation: multiplier applied to each out-of-combat unit
LR6;4.0;1;Land retreat tactical situation calculation: multiplier applied to each unit in panic