Is Gentleman Johnny locked into going to Canada?

[FM WarB]

Or does the British player get a strategic choice where to send him,,,and Cornwallis in 1776? Is the British player forced by scenario design to follow a historically failed troop deployment?

[GlobalExplorer]

I don't think he is locked or has the Canadian trait. But it could be overkill to ship his armies out of the St.Lawrence. Never tried though.

[FM WarB]

I don't think he is locked or has the Canadian trait. But it could be overkill to ship his armies out of the St.Lawrence. Never tried though.

I want to have the strategic choice not to send Burgoyne to the St. Lawrence in the first place. They sent him there fearing Quebec would fall. Then they sent him into the Adirondack wilderness. I want to send him to Boston or New York.

[lodilefty]

Go ahead. Write a mod!

[FM WarB]

General Greene,

Methinks I'll wait for a patch or two before I buy. I eagerly await peeking at database files. I hope any suggestions I make are not objected to, not Having the game. I'm into NCP now, and may even get the still to be perfected ACW.

le tondu

[GlobalExplorer]

Methinks I'll wait for a patch or two before I buy. I eagerly await peeking at database files. I hope any suggestions I make are not objected to, not Having the game. I'm into NCP now, and may even get the still to be perfected ACW.

How long you wonna wait? ACW is certainly perfected enough imo, I could alread enjoy it thoroughly 1 year ago, and there have been like 500 patches since then ..

As to your initial question yes, his army appears in Montreal, whereas cornwallis army appears boarded on a fleet next to the Carolina coast. So the solution for people like you would be to put Burgoyne on a transport fleet too, and spawn it in, lets say, halifax. I dont know if that would be hard to implement, and personally I would not mind at all to have it like that.

[Hobbes]

How long you wonna wait? ACW is certainly perfected enough imo, I could alread enjoy it thoroughly 1 year ago, and there have been like 500 patches since then ..

As to your initial question yes, his army appears in Montreal, whereas cornwallis army appears boarded on a fleet next to the Carolina coast. So the solution for people like you would be to put Burgoyne on a transport fleet too, and spawn it in, lets say, halifax. I dont know if that would be hard to implement, and personally I would not mind at all to have it like that.

I agree - off the coast of Halifax a turn earlier would be good. In BoA1 I sent him back to New York.

Cheers, Chris

[GlobalExplorer]

Maybe also impose some political cost for not sending him to Canada, I thought that's how such things are handled.

[lodilefty]

These ideas are great! Keep them coming!

Once things settle, one of two things will happen:

1. We'll start incorporating these into the 'chocolate' game [AACW is 'vanilla' ]
2. I'll write a mod...



Thread moved so we can find it to do improvements!!!

[GlobalExplorer]

I have thought about it, and I think as it is now Burgoyne should stay where he is. Not because I would mind freedom of choice, but because anything else could completely unbalance the game. I could already now completely surprise the AI by shipping a small army into Virginia. It had no problems to take anything between Richmond, Norfolk, Lexington, and keep it for the rest of the war. Any such strategy in Virginia means that the USA is basically cut in half, but at least right now you do not have enough regiments to spare to use it as a springboard for an additional offensive from there.

With the two stacks that Johnny has one could easily move north from Richmond for a drive on Baltimore and Philadelphia and thereby overrrun the last safe front that the USA has. As long as the AI can not react to this, it would not do the game very good imo.

Maybe it would work if the british/german stacks were much smaller, but I dont know ..

[lodilefty]

I have thought about it, and I think as it is now Burgoyne should stay where he is. Not because I would mind freedom of choice, but because anything else could completely unbalance the game. I could already now completely surprise the AI by shipping a small army into Virginia. It had no problems to take anything between Richmond, Norfolk, Lexington, and keep it for the rest of the war. Any such strategy in Virginia means that the USA is basically cut in half, but at least right now you do not have enough regiments to spare to use it as a springboard for an additional offensive from there.

With the two stacks that Johnny has one could easily move north from Richmond for a drive on Baltimore and Philadelphia and thereby overrrun the last safe front that the USA has. As long as the AI can not react to this, it would not do the game very good imo.

Maybe it would work if the british/german stacks were much smaller, but I dont know ..

Game balance is an ongoing challenge. If only Pocus would stop improving the AI

Also, we need to remember that this is a Historical simulation. If we put Gentleman Johnny elsewhere, who/what else would we change? As WiA is 'Level 1 AGEOD', it is meant to simulate the role of a 'Theater Commander', who is at the mercy of the 'suits back home'. Historically, the British leadershp in London were terrified that Quebec would fall, so there he went. 'Orders, you know. Damnably difficult. Yas, yas.' The home office was also responding to the 'Grand Plan' to drive 3 prongs into the north and cut off New England...

There is nothing in the game to stop you from sending transports to Quebec and moving him elsewhere....

IMHO, we'll have to wait for VGN to get more freedom of force distribution...

...or you can edit the event file to send him elsewhere - a very simple mod!

[Pdubya64]

I have thought about it, and I think as it is now Burgoyne should stay where he is. Not because I would mind freedom of choice, but because anything else could completely unbalance the game. I could already now completely surprise the AI by shipping a small army into Virginia. It had no problems to take anything between Richmond, Norfolk, Lexington, and keep it for the rest of the war. Any such strategy in Virginia means that the USA is basically cut in half, but at least right now you do not have enough regiments to spare to use it as a springboard for an additional offensive from there.

With the two stacks that Johnny has one could easily move north from Richmond for a drive on Baltimore and Philadelphia and thereby overrrun the last safe front that the USA has. As long as the AI can not react to this, it would not do the game very good imo.

Maybe it would work if the british/german stacks were much smaller, but I dont know ..

I don't have the game yet, but GE's comments got me thinking...

Logic would suggest that historically, something kept the British from doing just what GE did in his game- I would find it pretty hard to believe the British HQ staff never thought of this themselves. So, I guess the next question would be what was the reason(s) behind their decisions historically, and thus, what should be allowable in-game that still provides enough "what if?" possibilities to the player to keep things interesting?

[GlobalExplorer]

Logic would suggest that historically, something kept the British from doing just what GE did in his game- I would find it pretty hard to believe the British HQ staff never thought of this themselves.

I am sure there were sound reasons, and if the plan had succeeded they it would have opened a connection to the forces in New York and split the USA along the Hudson. Another reason seems to have been that they overestimated support from their Indian allies and Loyalists in the North.

So, I guess the next question would be what was the reason(s) behind their decisions historically, and thus, what should be allowable in-game that still provides enough "what if?" possibilities to the player to keep things interesting?

I think there can never be enough of such options, in fact I am even thinking about researching completely "what-if" campaigns The problem is just that if in this case it unbalances everything, an unbalanced game, where you can win easily, is no fun.

[FM WarB]

Historically the Brits tried a separate the colonies along the Hudson strategy because they gave up Boston. If they hold Boston they can conquer the colonies from there. A much smaller force would be needed to secure Quebec and retake Montreal, if Boston is held, New York taken, etc.

Finally the Split the colonies along the Hudson plan presumed bateaux transport and water movement all the way from Montreal to New York. If there are no transport links at Montreal, Ticonderoga, Lake George to Hudson the plan is invalid and dumber than it was historically.

[lodilefty]

Historically the Brits tried a separate the colonies along the Hudson strategy because they gave up Boston. If they hold Boston they can conquer the colonies from there. A much smaller force would be needed to secure Quebec and retake Montreal, if Boston is held, New York taken, etc.

Finally the Split the colonies along the Hudson plan presumed bateaux transport and water movement all the way from Montreal to New York. If there are no transport links at Montreal, Ticonderoga, Lake George to Hudson the plan is invalid and dumber than it was historically.

Hmm, maybe conditional location for Johnny? Boston if held, else Quebec?

Currently, I know of no way to do a 'user choice' input to the event script [as in EU, HOI, etc...]

The water transport assumption may have been one of the errors.....

AFAIK, much portage would have been needed at both ends of Lake Champlain/Lake George, and that means hauling a lot of stuff through wilderness....

I'd welcome some solid, referenced research on these portage areas, if you can point me that way

[GlobalExplorer]

Historically the Brits tried a separate the colonies along the Hudson strategy because they gave up Boston. If they hold Boston they can conquer the colonies from there. A much smaller force would be needed to secure Quebec and retake Montreal, if Boston is held, New York taken, etc.

Right now the Continental Army makes a push on Boston everytime and fails. So maybe the initial 2 Expeditionary Forces should start not in Boston, but somwhere else (New York)? And the US AI should not attack, but defend behind the rivers??

But also see my remarks about British strategy involving Virginia exploit.

Finally the Split the colonies along the Hudson plan presumed bateaux transport and water movement all the way from Montreal to New York. If there are no transport links at Montreal, Ticonderoga, Lake George to Hudson the plan is invalid and dumber than it was historically.

I agree as I was also unhappy with the lack of any water transport from Montreal, see my posts in the map errata thread.

For the player, the plan will still work out if you capture Ft. Ticonderoga and Albany, which - with the AI's habit of leaving structures insufficiently guarded - should be no big problem. But at least the AI is absolutely incapable of making any use of the Burgoyne army and lets them just freeze to death.

[lodilefty]

Right now the Continental Army makes a push on Boston everytime and fails. So maybe the initial 2 Expeditionary Forces should start not in Boston, but somwhere else (New York)? And the US AI should not attack, but defend behind the rivers??

But also see my remarks about British strategy involving Virginia exploit.



I agree as I was also unhappy with the lack of any water transport from Montreal, see my posts in the map errata thread.

For the player, the plan will still work out if you capture Ft. Ticonderoga and Albany, which - with the AI's habit of leaving structures insufficiently guarded - should be no big problem. But at least the AI is absolutely incapable of making any use of the Burgoyne army and lets them just freeze to death.

First part: History intervenes again, but it could be a new 'what if' scenario...

Second part: I'm looking forward to 'tweaking' the AI using the new 'emphasis' options, as well as AutoGarrison.

Second answer is gonna take some time and testing....

[GlobalExplorer]

Second part: I'm looking forward to 'tweaking' the AI using the new 'emphasis' options, as well as AutoGarrison.

better_ai:
{

[INDENT]Emphasis garrison

if (ai_faction == USA)
{
[INDENT]Emphasis defense[/INDENT]}

if (season == WINTER)
{[INDENT]stay_in ( town where supply > 20 )[/INDENT]}[/INDENT]}

Second answer is gonna take some time and testing....

OK, then let's say next weekend?

[lodilefty]

better_ai:
{

[INDENT]Emphasis garrison

if (ai_faction == USA)
{
[INDENT]Emphasis defense[/INDENT]}

if (season == WINTER)
{[INDENT]stay_in ( town where supply > 20 )[/INDENT]}[/INDENT]}



OK, then let's say next weekend?

We don't have the new executable yet!

Maybe I can figure out the syntax by next weekend...

[FM WarB]

http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?t=8182&highlight=Portage

There's a link to a website source here. Portagegot put on the back burner, it appears.

[GlobalExplorer]

Intreating thread about portage, and +1 on vocabulary.

[lodilefty]

Ah! The portage story has come back to me:

During design, it was discussed.
The existing jumplinks [transit and longtrasition] would allow ALL ships to go from St. Lawrence to Lake Champlain.

I can't see a Frigate being portaged....

As I recall, we discussed creating a new link terrain [portage] to do this, but never reached closure so it got tabled in the 'heat of battle' [i.e. I forgot it ]

It was also part of the discussion around creating 'canal link' for AACW...

Let's try again... if nothing else, I can offer a quick mod, but I'd like to see this part of the official version....

[FM WarB]

I can't see a Frigate being portaged....

A frigate, probably not. Carleton in 1776 did dissamble on the St Laurence the Inflexible, 18x12lb and the schooners Maria and Carleton, 14 and 12x6lb. Took them 28 days to rebuild the Carleton at St. Johns, so the whole process would be a long jump link of two turns with no other movement.
Carleton also portaged a whole passle of bateax and other small craft from Chambly to St Johns. He had to build a fleet to secure Lake Champlain because Arnold was building a fleet at Ticonderoga and Skeensboro to contest the lake.
The time needed to build the fleet to fight the Battle of Valcour Island caused Carleton to decide there was not enough campaign season left to take Ticonderoga, so he wintered in St. Johns. A bad start for Gentleman Johnny!

[FM WarB]

I should point out that these bateaux/portage issues apply to French and Indian war scenarios and 1812 scenarios as well. One reason I only concentrated on the American Revolution, and sending Jentleman Johnny somewhere else.

[Edward Ord]

I'm a big fan of this era, but I always have a problem when the game forces me to do what really happened. I think the best example of this was War in the Pacific, where you really couldn't do much that wasn't done in real life...making me ask the question why play at all if I know how it's going to end.

I don't really know if I'm staying on topic with this, but I wonder just how much freedom the player has in this game? Can I move anyone anywhere, or am I stuck doing what history, and the programmers want me to do?

[Offworlder]

Well I find that there are several options from which to choose when handling Burgoyne.

Option 1: Send a fleet from Boston and retrieve the army and send it elsewhere. Most of the time I either send them to Boston or New York. If Cornwallis runs into trouble, I send Burgoyne south.

Option 2: Procede historically with the campaign for the north. The bateaus next to St John are obviously extremely important, to avoid the attrition. Send them to Ticonderoga and procede south to Albany. Normally its not that problematic to take Albany, making Burgoyne's army the anvil for Howe's or Clinton's hammer coming up from New York.

Frankly the British have a great advantage in their fleet so shifting Burgoyne from Canada is not such a problem.

[lodilefty]

Well I find that there are several options from which to choose when handling Burgoyne.

Option 1: Send a fleet from Boston and retrieve the army and send it elsewhere. Most of the time I either send them to Boston or New York. If Cornwallis runs into trouble, I send Burgoyne south.

Option 2: Procede historically with the campaign for the north. The bateaus next to St John are obviously extremely important, to avoid the attrition. Send them to Ticonderoga and procede south to Albany. Normally its not that problematic to take Albany, making Burgoyne's army the anvil for Howe's or Clinton's hammer coming up from New York.

Frankly the British have a great advantage in their fleet so shifting Burgoyne from Canada is not such a problem.

...and even better once the portage patch goes in.

[Offworlder]

...and even better once the portage patch goes in.

What concrete advantages would portages have in the game? Would they function like unofficial canals (albeit with slower movement rates)?

[lodilefty]

What concrete advantages would portages have in the game? Would they function like unofficial canals (albeit with slower movement rates)?

Yes. Bateaux will be able to move from Lac St. Pierre [St. Lawrence River] to Lake Champlain. Thus, an all-water transport from Quebec or Montreal to Fort Carrillon [Ticonderoga] is possible. Huge impact on lines of supply and troop movements.

Movement though the portage will be slow, and very slow in mud!

[Heldenkaiser]

Frankly the British have a great advantage in their fleet so shifting Burgoyne from Canada is not such a problem.

Except it takes two months. Four, if you send the fleet only when he actually shows up in Quebec. Too late for a campaign in 1776.

I just had this great idea in a BoA (1) MP game, seeing how, holding Boston and environs, there really was no need for a move from Canada that violated the principle of strategic concentration without good reason. I do think that under these circumstances the historical plan would never have been devised in the first place, as has been pointed out above. So while I agree that the scope of BoA is the command in North America and the chaps back in London decide where your reinforcements arrive, tough luck, live with it, higher strategic needs, orders and all that .... , I also agree that under certain circumstances decisions back in London don't seem to make sense at all. Some variation depending on the actual situation in America would certainly make the game more plausible in this respect. Can't reinforcements be event-based? So that holding or losing certain regions would mean (major) reinforcements go here or there?