Campaign 1755. Frustration in Louisbourg

[Juliano]

How the hell do I conquer Louisbourg?

I've sent a very large army (power:1420) in april 1758, supported by the whole British fleet, with lots of artillery (including the siege artillery unit). When landing there's a battle I usually win, and then I lay siege during at least 5 months without any breach or hit. Despite having all British warships available in the adjacent seazone, the blockaded port symbol doesn't appear (how many warships are necessary?)

When october arrives my 8-9 supply wagons are empty, and the winter is comming ... Without any advance in the siege I launch a desperate assault, but always finnish with a terrible defeat, and almost no time to evacuate the army before the sea gets frozen.

I don't know what to do. I've tried to build a depot in the region of Cap Breton, as a " supply base", but it isn' enough for such large army.

Any advice to take Louisbourg will be welcomed.

[PhilThib]

Make sure you have warships in all sea zones around the Isle Royale, so that the blockade symbol is displayed.

Send us the save of the siege turns (April to winter 1758) so we can try and see what goes on behind the scenes. Zip and mail to support@ageod.com

[Chief Rudiger]

I've had similar experiences trying to take Louisbourg. It always seems harder than it was in Real Life. A "gamey" strategy i find that works is to send empty wagons back to Halifax in one turn and then return them full to Louisbourg the next. Depending on the size of your army this supply wagon rotation should keep you in supply through to Jan/Feb, long enough to starve out even the largest garrison if you start the siege soon enough and don't have your blockade broken by the French Navy.

The below screen shot shows my men and their empty pockets in possesion of the objective after its garrison had completely been destroyed through lack of supply. The place can also be stormed the turn before to kill the last of the survivors and capture a few support units, for what they are worth.



As for the weather, your supply wagons "shield" your units from weather hits to a degree and if you are quick enough with your rotation you should be able to deliver enough supplies to see your men through before the seas become impassible.

Even if this does happen you can still usually send ships/wagons to resupply from the North at the British port on an island there or even to somewhere else in the Americas by a crazy route via the North Atlantic and Britain (which is inaccessible in this scenario?).

Phil, can you confirm whether the below is a bug or WIA? Louisbourg has been blockaded but still generates 70 Supply. I only managed to knock this down to zero by besieging the place. I will attach a save game when I can figure out which turns to zip!



PS. Don't bother with those last two screens, the pertinent information is illegible at that resolution.

[lodilefty]

I've had similar experiences trying to take Louisbourg. It always seems harder than it was in Real Life. A "gamey" strategy i find that works is to send empty wagons back to Halifax in one turn and then return them full to Louisbourg the next. Depending on the size of your army this supply wagon rotation should keep you in supply through to Jan/Feb, long enough to starve out even the largest garrison if you start the siege soon enough and don't have your blockade broken by the French Navy.



As for the weather, your supply wagons "shield" your units from weather hits to a degree and if you are quick enough with your rotation you should be able to deliver enough supplies before the seas become impassible. Even if this does happen you can still usually send ships to the North to the British port on an island there or even to somewhere in the America via the North Atlantic and Britain (which is non-accessible in this scenario?).

Phil, can you confirm whether the below is a bug or WIA? Louisbourg has been blockaded but still generates 70 Supply. I only managed to knock this down to zero by besieging the place. I will attach a save game when I can figure out which turns to zip!

Actually, the way you describe supply unit 'rotation' is WAD. This is how the game simulates the logistical challenges of the era.

AFAIK, the ships blockade will have no effect until there is a siege. I believe this simulates that the location could still gain supplies from the surrounding region.

I do agree that it would be better if the ship blockade reduced the supply state by the amount contributed by the port....

[PhilThib]

I do agree that it would be better if the ship blockade reduced the supply state by the amount contributed by the port....

I think this is normally the case (Pocus calls it Brown water blockade)...don't know if it works in WIA, but it should...

[Chief Rudiger]

Actually, the way you describe supply unit 'rotation' is WAD. This is how the game simulates the logistical challenges of the era.

Apologies, what I meant to say was that maintaining an army outside of Louisbourg throughout the winter is a bit gamey!

AFAIK, the ships blockade will have no effect until there is a siege. I believe this simulates that the location could still gain supplies from the surrounding region.

I do agree that it would be better if the ship blockade reduced the supply state by the amount contributed by the port....

PhilThib wrote: "I think this is normally the case (Pocus calls it Brown water blockade)...don't know if it works in WIA, but it should..."

How much supply should lvl 2 City w/ lvl 3 Fort and lvl 1 Depot but w/o lvl 4 Harbour generate? In the scenario that my screen shots come from the French sustained 11,000 men consuming 128 supply a month on the un-blockaded and un-besieged town. This size garrison meant my 9,000 man, out gunned army couldn't take the place. As I could over-winter my army I resorted to a naval and land blockade/investment rather than a close siege reasoning that his Navy was weak and what unlocked forces he had were numerically inferior and thus neither was able to break my stanglehold. His supply production was halted when my army laid "siege" (and not before) and were exhausted in Jan/Feb, causing his army to dissappear through lack of supply. He did not surrender and the fortress defaulted to my control.

My armies supply wagons rotation had been halted by the bad weather at sea and all my men had left was what was in their pockets. The strategy was gamey but did the job that was otherwise impossible and let me get on with my game. Being able to reduce his supply production by a naval blockade alone could possibly have draw down his supply reserves beforehand, resulting in a quicker land campaign that could have been over before the winter. A much more believable game.

As is, I can't think of another alternative to the A.I.'s turtling in Louisbourg. Give Wolfe's reinforcements siege artillery?

[PhilThib]

Defenses in Louisbourg are probably overstrenghtened compared to history... and the engine makes sieges a bit too long... we have to work out these points

[lodilefty]

http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?p=96360#post96360

So:

City Level 2 = 5 * 2 = 10 SC => ~50 supplies

Fort Level 3 = 10 * 3 = 30 SC => ~150 supplies

Depot Level 1 = 20 * 1 = 20 SC => ~100 supplies

Total ~300 supplies, then adjust for weather, etc. vs. 128 used.

Certainly, a 'brown water blockade' should reduce the port to 0, and combined with a siege should reduce these values also.

Design-wise, we may well have built it too strong....

[Chief Rudiger]

As the French i've often found it difficult to find enough transport to remove whatever reinforcements land there. Might this be happening to the A.I. - resulting in an involuntary accumulation of forces there?

[PhilThib]

Most surely....especially because the AI is not as good as you are transporting troop over long stretches of sea... we really need more fixing here

[Chief Rudiger]

http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?p=96360#post96360

So:

City Level 2 = 5 * 2 = 10 SC => ~50 supplies

Fort Level 3 = 10 * 3 = 30 SC => ~150 supplies

Depot Level 1 = 20 * 1 = 20 SC => ~100 supplies

Total ~300 supplies, then adjust for weather, etc. vs. 128 used.

Certainly, a 'brown water blockade' should reduce the port to 0, and combined with a siege should reduce these values also.

Design-wise, we may well have built it too strong....

PhilThib/lodilefty

There is not much room for fine tuning with the supply values is there?

My 2 cents worth are:

The city could be downgraded to a Level 1 City and the Fort to Level 2 making 225 Supply/turn (45 SC x 5) w/o the Harbour. The "Fortress" would still be more substanstial than the regular player-buildable ones but would not generate a massive amount of supply. This would cap the forces sustainable there and more importantly make them more vulnerable to taking hits in a siege and from falling to assault. Coupled with more scripted siege artillery this could make it less of an impossible task.

Making the fortress less strong would make it really important for the French player /A.I. to break the blockade and open the harbour (if I am right in saying that the harbour being open effects the calculation of hits/breeches as in BOA).

At present the French fleet doesn't have to break the blockade because the garrison is pretty safe behind its Level 3 walls, that is, unless the British try to starve them out by stranding their siege force on the island over the winter.

The case for scripted siege artillery:

According to the following website, 24lbs were the mainstay of the British direct fire batteries (60%) with other field artillery calibres (12 & 6lbers or just 6 lb for this period?) accounting for another 30% of the cannon. Cannon accounted for two thirds of the total "tubes" and mortars and howitzers the remaining third. Fifty percent of the mortars were 4 2/3 inch pieces. The Osprey book on the siege mentions similar numbers.

http://www.1stroyals.org/louisbourg.html

Edit: Here's the info graphed, if your into that kind of thing...

[Chief Rudiger]

Most surely....especially because the AI is not as good as you are transporting troop over long stretches of sea... we really need more fixing here

Could the majority of reinforcements not be landed at Quebec, and if that place isn't controlled then not at all (i.e. Canada is a lost cause)?

[PhilThib]

It's already the case... leure:

[Hobbes]

PhilThib/lodilefty

There is not much room for fine tuning with the supply values is there?

My 2 cents worth are:

The city could be downgraded to a Level 1 City and the Fort to Level 2 making 225 Supply/turn (45 SC x 5) w/o the Harbour. The "Fortress" would still be more substanstial than the regular player-buildable ones but would not generate a massive amount of supply. This would cap the forces sustainable there and more importantly make them more vulnerable to taking hits in a siege and from falling to assault. Coupled with more scripted siege artillery this could make it less of an impossible task.

Making the fortress less strong would make it really important for the French player /A.I. to break the blockade and open the harbour (if I am right in saying that the harbour being open effects the calculation of hits/breeches as in BOA).

At present the French fleet doesn't have to break the blockade because the garrison is pretty safe behind its Level 3 walls, that is, unless the British try to starve them out by stranding their siege force on the island over the winter.

The case for scripted siege artillery:

According to the following website, 24lbs were the mainstay of the British direct fire batteries (60%) with other field artillery calibres (12 & 6lbers or just 6 lb for this period?) accounting for another 30% of the cannon. Cannon accounted for two thirds of the total "tubes" and mortars and howitzers the remaining third. Fifty percent of the mortars were 4 2/3 inch pieces. The Osprey book on the siege mentions similar numbers.

http://www.1stroyals.org/louisbourg.html

Good post Rud, this sort of thing will make for a better game.
Cheers, Chris

[PhilThib]

May be you can try "tweaking" the scenario by yourself and see the effects... very easy to change Louisbourg value from 3 to 2, and you may even tweak the structure files to "reduce" the effects of supply generation...

Hist Note: if you reduce Louisbourg to level 2, you may as well reduce Halifax too, which was much less fortified...

[Chief Rudiger]

Phil,

I have editted the 1755 file in the Scens directory using notepad to make a unit of GBR Siege Art appear with the Royal Navy squadron in Boston in the first turn. However, scrolling through this file i cannot find entrys for the appearance of Wolfe or any of the other scripted Halifax reinforcements. Which file(s) do I need to edit?

[PhilThib]

Hok, who did the scn, is away on vacation till next week, but if I remember correctly, I believe these events are loaded from the 1756 Montcalm scenario, so you should find them in the 1756 event files

[lodilefty]

Hok, who did the scn, is away on vacation till next week, but if I remember correctly, I believe these events are loaded from the 1756 Montcalm scenario, so you should find them in the 1756 event files

Correct

Search in 1756 Montcalm.sct for the event named evt_nam_Renf101_ENG

[Juliano]

Total ~300 supplies, then adjust for weather, etc. vs. 128 used.

How does weather influence in the supply level?

[Juliano]

Make sure you have warships in all sea zones around the Isle Royale, so that the blockade symbol is displayed.

Send us the save of the siege turns (April to winter 1758) so we can try and see what goes on behind the scenes. Zip and mail to support@ageod.com

OK. I'll try to send it tomorrow. I'm on holidays and I have to come back to the cyber.

[Chief Rudiger]

Bump

May be you can try "tweaking" the scenario by yourself and see the effects... very easy to change Louisbourg value from 3 to 2, and you may even tweak the structure files to "reduce" the effects of supply generation...

Hist Note: if you reduce Louisbourg to level 2, you may as well reduce Halifax too, which was much less fortified...

Phil,

I can't find the file for changing the level of forts, all i can find is the one which controls what levels of city/harbour each region starts with. Little help?

[lodilefty]

Bump



Phil,

I can't find the file for changing the level of forts, all i can find is the one which controls what levels of city/harbour each region starts with. Little help?

That's a tough one in the actual .scn file, as this parameter is difficut to locate and identify.

Its 'easy' in the DB....

If you search in the 1755 Campaign.scn for this:

{Structure}
1000938
1
[color="Red"] 3[/color]
0
1000001
0
0
0
0
0
Forteresse de Louisbourg

{/Structure}

I think the '3' is the fortress level...

Note: the long numbers might be different, so try search for Forteresse de Louisbourg

[Chief Rudiger]

Thanks,

I shall try this tommorrow. I gave myself 3 units of siege artillery and still couldn't make a breach or inflict hits on Louisbourg!