Searching Lutzen-Bauzen OOB

[jastaV]

I'm working to some notes over French OOB at April 1813.
The target is the extended 1813 Campaign, but the fact we do not know how to manange the Armistice......
I hope someone could provide detailed information for Lutzen & Bauzen French and Coalition OOB.

Thaks

JastaV

[Florent]

Jasta V, i have also started to work on a spring 1813 campaign although i have started on 28 dec 1812/ 3 January 1813 as the first turn and the last turns will be the armistice or a decisive victory by either side, toward 7/13 june 1813.
Thus the scenarios encompass the french retreat and reoganization of what is left after the 1812 retreat by Eugene, the release of the divisions of 11e corps, and reconstruction of the french army.
But a scenario starting on March or April 1813 would also be of interest.

[Adlertag]

I think (humm...have a doubt) I have already posted those files in the beta forum.

Here are they again, you will find Lützen (p.65, French armies) and Bautzen (p.69) OOBs, along with many others, I hope it will be helpful.

[aryaman]

The Osprey book on both battles have a more detailed OOB if you need it.

[Florent]

The most complete order of battle is Nafziger, in many case the number of battalions by Regiments given by Peter Hofschröer (Osprey) is not at all the same given by Nafziger. The Russian suffered heavily during the winter too, losing 150000 dead as well as 300000 wounded, maimed etc.
The result was that most of the battalions on January 1st were at 300 or 400 and most Rgts had only one battalion left.
In many case the second or third battalion (reinforcements) joined after the armistice only.
The source of Nafziger for his OOB is Plotho C " Der Krieg in Deutschland und Frankreich 1813 and 1814 " written in 1817.

[Adlertag]

Ok, here are the files extracted from the Osprey book quoted by Aryaman and Florent.

(Note : we have to take care of the copyright).

[FM WarB]

Der Krieg in Deutschland und Frankreich in den Jahren 1813 und 1814 is available on Google books for reading and download. You will have to deal with the old German Frakur script, however.

the source of the source!

[jastaV]

Hi mates,

I have the complete Lutzen & Baitzen Osp. Publication at hand.
....and have to thanks many of you for the great support granted.

I'll take a couple of days to examine the issue in detail.
I suggest all of you, having Osp. Lutzen & Baitzen 1813 at hand to do the same.

There will be some things to discuss over: the best starting date for the "long 1813 NCP Campaign" ,at first.
Hope also to have PhilThib opinion!

Best regards and a great thanks.

JastaV

[Nikel]

Based on the chronology posted in that thread, my suggestion was

17 march. Prussian declares war to France


http://www.ageod-forum.com/showpost.php?p=90501&postcount=2

[jastaV]

Based on the chronology posted in that thread, my suggestion was

17 march. Prussian declares war to France


http://www.ageod-forum.com/showpost.php?p=90501&postcount=2

Have you detailed OOB for French and Coalition on March 17th, at hand?

........I like to examine in detail quoted sources, before going after a decision.
Anyway most units were depleted, waiting for replacements and most of time reforming before very late April.

[aryaman]

I own Nafziger book on the Prussian army, it has an OOB for March 1813.

[jastaV]

I own Nafziger book on the Prussian army, it has an OOB for March 1813.

Is that to be intended you could upload it or send copy of OOB pages by email?

[aryaman]

I sent to you a PM on the subject
BTW, I would like to make a suggestion, as you know there are models representing battalions and regiments, that could somehow unbalance the scenario if you are not careful, because of the saving in command points using full regiments models. i suggest you could use only Battalion models for all the armies.

[jastaV]

Here are some notes.......but nothing has been decided!
....but I'm till after the documentation phase.
Plan to glance at Chandlers book on Napoleon's Campaign, too.

1. French leaders will not have Calvary bonus!
That to simulate poore quality of French Calvary in this campaign.

2. We’ll have more French Armies opertive in Germany: it’s an historical data.
It also simulate Napoleon’s troubles to manage a large scale operation.
Note Battle of Leipzig and the relative campaing was a large scale struggle with more indipendent Commands/Armies per side.
Events were most of time dictated and influenced by troubles and mistakes in coordination of Commands/Armies efforts.

A NOTE TO AGEOD NCP IMPROVEMENT
We should intruduce a limit to the number of Corps an Army leader can control or attach to his Army Command.
It could be a factor related to the Strategic Rating of the Army Commander.
Otherwhile we could have Strategic Rating of the Army Commander worsening and decreasing as the the Number of Corps his Army control increases.

3. Austrian Declaration of War shoould be managed by an event influenced by NM and/VP gained into the pre-Armistice phase of the Campaign. So we could have chance that Austria will not joint the Coalition belligerants if French side “perform well” in the Spring Campaign

4. Armistice will level NM and VP for both sides.
Points, (NM and VP) gained in the Spring Campaign will count for determine Austrian intervention, then they be levelled back to a balanced ratio at the start of the post-Armistice campaign.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME HOW TO GET IT WORKING WITH NCP ENGINE !!!!

5. A.H.’s The Struggle of Nations is a Boardgame divisional level simulation of the 1813 Campaign.
Although useless for OOB data, (being a Divisional level game) it provides usefull indication for starting data and Corps starting deployement.

A.H.’s The Struggle of Nations full campaign begins is set to April 25-26, being 2 dayes the game turn lengh.
In NCP term we could start on last week of April.

For sake of semplicity I suggest to assume 25 April, (Fourth April week) as the opening date for the Campaign, while starting OOB will be based over Osprey publication referring to may the 2nd.
THIS IS NOT DEFINITIVE DECISION, JUST A POINT TO DISCUSS OVER!

[jastaV]

There are 175 models and 233 units, for land units for French.

To keep the things bearable, at a given time, you should not have more than say 20 land units and 10 ships.

This does not mean you can't change the units composition when year change, 20 units for 1805 and then 5 changing to another type every year is ok. In the end you can end up with say 60-75 land units, for the whole Imperial period, for France.

Also, models should have roughly the same number of men, this is very important. This consistency is not done in NCP and this is working upstream against how the engine is done: it thinks by element. If they vary in size, you have side effects.

I Got this important piece of Information from Pocus by PM.
It's a thing to keep over when editing OOB!

[FM WarB]

It seems to me you just need to pick the right moel or unit. There are not too many. See my 1812 oob thread. I believe trying to squeeze brigades into preset units that are not an exact match causes the game engine problems.

Very good idea about command penalties for armies contrlling large numbers of Corps!

[jastaV]

Very good idea about command penalties for armies contrlling large numbers of Corps!

.....it's an issue that will need a direct editing to NCP codes by AGEOD team!

So we'll have to suggest it at proper Forum page!

[aryaman]

Thinking about it, Florent´s project seems more logical an easier to do.
First, if you start late Aprile you have both armies in a collision route, so there will be a large battle the first turn, and then you have left only one month of campaign before the armistice.
Second, the armistice lasted for 2 and a half months, that is about 10 turns before the war resumes, how are you going to handle that?
Finally,an scenario starting in January of 1813 looks very attractive, armies were small, depleted after the Russian campaign, there is plenty of room for manouver unlike the regular 1813 scenario that is really too cramped.

[jastaV]

Thinking about it, Florent´s project seems more logical an easier to do.
First, if you start late Aprile you have both armies in a collision route, so there will be a large battle the first turn, and then you have left only one month of campaign before the armistice.
Second, the armistice lasted for 2 and a half months, that is about 10 turns before the war resumes, how are you going to handle that?
Finally,an scenario starting in January of 1813 looks very attractive, armies were small, depleted after the Russian campaign, there is plenty of room for manouver unlike the regular 1813 scenario that is really too cramped.

Well, guess I have to contact Florent for ideas exchange.......
Think it's useless to have two separate projects going after the same subject!

Keep mind that after a campaign start it's impossible to reproduce an historical flow of events: events flow being influenced by player decision, AI action and random events.
Of course, with Florent going after a Germany Campaign starting at January of 1813, and me going after a Germany Campaign starting at April 1813 we'll have two quite different campaigns, that could be of interest for players!
It's also true that last April week is a good starting point because at that time most Corps have completed their reorganization!
Anyway I'm also considering March as the starting date, being the struggle for Berlin and Saxony of great interest.

A scenario starting in January of 1813 looks very attractive, armies were small, depleted after the Russian campaign....

I agree, but it's very hard to manage, because of armies reorganization.
Dropping fresh units inside an existing Army is unrealistic, and not supported by AGEOD engine.
January 1813 Armies were built with 1812 units; or more properly with remnants of them.
The bulk of 1813 Campaign was fought by units raised into 1813, with standards and ratings very inferior to those of 1812 units, (expecially for French side).
We cannot have both in a campaign, (1812 standar units & 1813 standard units) because to the limit to number of unit type AGEOD engine can support.

Second, the armistice lasted for 2 and a half months, that is about 10 turns before the war resumes, how are you going to handle that?

The armistice issue is till enveloped in a thick fog of war courtine!
Anyway it's not said it will be triggered at and will last for the historical lengh!

In conclusion, but the historical documentation troubles, ( most of them being resolved thanks to generous collaboration and support of many of you posting here ); but the great interest for all phases of the German Campaign, (that could be seen as a natural continuation of 1812 Russian Campaign) we have always to keep mind of AGEOD engine potentialities and limits.

[aryaman]

We cannot have both in a campaign, (1812 standar units & 1813 standard units) because to the limit to number of unit type AGEOD engine can support.

I think you could as long as you keep your OOB as simple as possible.

[Florent]

Very interesting posts here.
I agree with Jasta V that there is room for 2 different scenarios starting at different dates. After all 1813 is Napoléon's longest campaign !!
Nevertheless 25 April is perhaps too late and you should consider starting in March or early April.
For the exchange of information i totally agree because it will allow a continuity with the units.
I should ask when i need and Jasta has already started.

I 'm doing a 28dec-3 january 1813 to 7-13 june scenario or a little longer (end june), because i want a scenario where i can take decisions about puting my forces in fortresses or have them in the field.
Historically a 112000 Russian army was reduced to about 46000-56000 soldiers on the eve of Lützen because of the numerous sieges to do, thus it was a gre/at success for Napoléon.
But the armistice as stated by Nafziger was his biggest mistake since with the raising of Landwehr and Landsturm it allowed the regular troops to reach the front.
Thus i would like to get the decisive victory if possible knowing that my cavalry is very inferior in numbers, moreover the 1813 campaign was very hard on the young conscripts and the replacements shouldn't be too strong thus the army will decrease and an armistice could be asked perhaps in a manner like you asked for guns and horses and what have been done for WIA with the new options.
About the units there is few 1812 type units except the Augereau XI corps. His divisions will be released at historical dates.
About the remains of the Grande Armée, this is very simple :
On February 1 1813, the I corps had 1600 (2281 on january 1), II had 1900, III had 1000 and IV had 1900.
The correspondence between Napo and Eugene see that I corps had organized with the survivors 3 Btns, 3 in II corps, 2 in III corps that was dissolved on January 28 and soldiers given to II corps and 3 in IV send back to Italy rapidly.
And in the data you have a 2 or 3 Btns brigade (conscript or regular). I think i will use because of the terrible 1812 campaign, hanger, illness (typhus) and drop of morale.
There is an instruction for the events, reinforcements that you can see in the Ried Event(bavarian) that allow you to kill a stack and recreate it again elsewhere thus for example at one time i will be possible to create a new I corps for Davout erasing the old corps simulating incorporation and the sending of cadres and create a new one with the new units arriving at a particular dates.
Basically all the corps were new ones built from scratch.
Like Jasta V stated i will use the 1813 model but with some variation in morale or cohesion simulating the difference between different types of levy. The cohorts for example were raised in april and june 1812, had plenty of training and were far superior to the other conscripts of 1813 but are of 1813 type because of a lack of cadres.
With Scott Bowden books about Napoléon's Grande Armée of 1813 it's possible to see where the 3 or 4 different types of soldiers went.
An historical event will explain the different levies.
I will need (to create) nevertheless a single Old Guard Btn or Young Guard Btn to get the ad-hoc small division of Roguet with 2 YG btns, one Old Guard + Italian Btns.

For my main sources i use :
" Lützen and Bautzen : Napoléon's spring campaign " by Nafziger 1992 Emperor's press (dec1812 to the armistice)( the first of a trilogy ; Napoléon at Dresden and Napo at Leipzig being the others.
Each book has about 270 pages + 64 pages of OOB(Lützen.

" La guerre de 1813 " by Lt Col Charras Paris 1870( the first is Leipzig 1866; Charras was anti-Napo). From dec 1812 to the eve of Lützen ( Charras died to early to complete what should have been a decisive work)
Scott Bowden see above 1990 Emperor's Press
La campagne de 1813 by G Clément 1900 and reedited 2 or 3 years ago by LCV.
L'armée de 1813 by Camille Rousset paris 1892.
And the on line ressource like the correspondence and memories of Eugene (de Beauharnais) as well as Lorraine Petre and his book about the 1813 Campaign.
+ some ospreys. and a friend of mine (Vincent )that helps me a lot with his books about Saxons, Poles, and Bade Troops and he send me the links for the Internet ressources.
The first three books are the best but the informations lacking in a book is in the other and so on

[jastaV]

..... there is room for 2 different scenarios starting at different dates. After all 1813 is Napoléon's longest campaign !!
Nevertheless 25 April is perhaps too late and you should consider starting in March or early April.

I considered an early date for campaign start too: mid' March 1813!
It's an interesting starting point, but........ leure:
At that date most Corps were till under formations.
Davoult's I Corps was reorganized more times between February & April 1813....Indeed it is proper see at it as Davoult's Command, rather than Davoult's I Corps.
On May, Davoult was set in charge of XIII Corps, while the 1813 I Corps was assigned to Vandamme.
It's hard to keep track of these movements and reorganization in the game!

Most important I HAVE NOT DETAILED INFORMATIONS OVER THE COMPOSITION OF DAVOULT's COMMAND IN THIS PERIOD leure: .......at worst relative to mid' March 1813!
BTW, if you could provide them him It will grately help starting the campaign on mid' March, as you too suggested......

We have to keep mind these are first serious modding attempts with NCP***, while the 1813 Campaign is perhaps the more complex subject to deal with!

***My previous Mod "THE EAGLE's RETURN" has just a playground to get some experience with AGEOD files.

It's also true I have at hand A.H. Struggle of Nations, the boargame, to be used as a pathfinder for starting troops placement: Spring campaign start within Avalon Hill game is 25 April!

There is an instruction for the events, reinforcements that you can see in the Ried Event(bavarian) that allow you to kill a stack and recreate it again elsewhere thus for example at one time i will be possible to create a new I corps for Davout erasing the old corps simulating incorporation and the sending of cadres and create a new one with the new units arriving at a particular dates.

There're many examples of such events with Peninsular War Campaign: I tried it a couple of times, but I did not look to related files yet.
Perhaps you should too!
Anyway having Corps and Armis simply disappearing from map is not the best solution, but a reason of disappointment when forces you deployed for a planned offensive simply disappeared unpredictably!
I suggest to limit, when possible, these kind of "tip"!

Like Jasta V stated i will use the 1813 model but with some variation in morale or cohesion simulating the difference between different types of levy. The cohorts for example were raised in april and june 1812, had plenty of training and were far superior to the other conscripts of 1813 but are of 1813 type because of a lack of cadres.

I dedicated hours to examine in detail setup file for default NCP 1813 campaign.
I already reported it:
http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=9887

It's true setup file for default NCP 1813 campaign makes large use of 1812, sometimes earlier, units,..... that although a mess of subunits for 1813-1814 are available in DB_models file, while some of them have been encoded into DB_units file as selectable units.
I decided to check and rework 1813 setup files, replacing 1812 and erlier units with 1813-1814 ones.
I'm 1/3 of the work now!.......But I have not tested it yet!
I'll post the new 1813 setup files, on completion of the re-editing attempt....

I plan also to release a public mod for NCP 1813 scenery, with historical 1813 units used in-place of erlier ones.......it could be interesting to play it in so far French 1813-1814 units are definitely weaker compared with 1812 units!

BTW, I have created a some new units and one new unit-model!!!!!

Testing of NCP_DB files is also part of the challenge!
I experieced some "CVSSplitter conversion" errors in my first attempts.
So, now I prefer to examine and possibly fix them, ( the NCP_DB files), before going deep in 1813 project!

As regard sources:
1. Someone has been quoted in the present thread: have to thank many for support granted, as regard !!!!!

2. I'm exploring the net for sources almost dayly!
Here is a very good link:
http://www.napoleon-series.org/

3. Have also at hand Osprey publications, D. Chandler books, Boardgame notebooks.

It's clear that to edit historical OOB to be used with AGEOD NCP we need battalion level informations: knowing that Davould Commands, (I Corps) in early 1813 was composed of 19.000 men and 60 guns from Gerad's Div, remains of Reynier's Corps, one brigade from XI Corps is USELESS: WE NEED TO KNOW DETAILS AT REGIMENT/SQUADRON/BATTERY LEVEL!
......can you help with that?

Hope the information exchange will go on!
As regard suggest to use this public thread!
Files could be exchange by e-mail, if strictely related to our projects development.
Files of public interest, as mod files, are to be posted at NCP Mods page:
http://www.ageod-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=160
....that to save time to RAFIKI!

[jastaV]

A very usefull feature to use with 1813 Campaign:

http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?t=9899

We could start with Corps quadres & severely depleted in manpower, expecialy in early 1813....
Adding more replacements than usually we should see Corps reforming!

BTW I had not yet tried suggested tip!

[Carnium]

4. Armistice will level NM and VP for both sides.
Points, (NM and VP) gained in the Spring Campaign will count for determine Austrian intervention, then they be levelled back to a balanced ratio at the start of the post-Armistice campaign.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME HOW TO GET IT WORKING WITH NCP ENGINE !!!!

WiA has a scenario called Fallen timbers where a certain area becomes inaccessible after XY turns. This could be well used in your scenario if they are prepared to share the code for this event. However it would require a check for all foreign troops in the soon-to-be inaccessible territory and its transfer to the proper territory.

[jastaV]

WiA has a scenario called Fallen timbers where a certain area becomes inaccessible after XY turns. This could be well used in your scenario if they are prepared to share the code for this event. However it would require a check for all foreign troops in the accessible territory and its transfer to the proper territory.

Thanks for suggestion!
Indeed I noticed something like that in a thread dedicated to events editing & event rostering: unfortunately all my attemps to edit & process such a file type were negative!

[jastaV]

The thread dedicated to my Struggle of Nations - Germany, APRIL 1813project is here:

http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?t=9973

You'll find state of art development reports and project related issues.