Ardie
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More bugs/stuff on Spanish Ulcer 1.04b

Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:42 pm

Bought the game a few weeks ago and been playing the Spanish campaign for some time...and noticed these problems:

1. The one element units lose their original (the element name!) name if added into an existing division and/or when disassembling an existing one. For example a French arty unit of 1e Bie 1C (unit name) would then replace the element name (which could be something like 1st Co of the 5th art Rgt fe).

2. Several French leaders have one of their abilities duplicated as fe Loison has 2 pillager abilities and Delaborde has 2 defender abilities.

3. There are some mixups with some Spanish leaders. These are Marques de Zayas (who's named de Zerain) and with the identical twins Carabajal and Carbajal. These are because of mistakes in model and unit files. Also 2 duplicate leaders for Cagical (spa) and Bonet (fra) who appear at the start of the campaign and are to be appear again in the event file.

4. Some events don't fire up...for example the Joseph, King of Spain doesn't show up which leads to Murat disappearing suddenly and Joey Boney appearing instead. (The event is missing the location $Madrid in the command line - I tested it with that and it worked).

That's it folks...proceeding into 1809.

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arsan
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Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:51 pm

Thanks for the reports! :coeurs:
I´m sure PhilThib will take a good look at them when he comes back form vacations.
I will repost them on the NCP beta forum too so they don't go unnoticed :siffle:
I reported some of the double leaders (Cagigal) on the beta forum a little while ago but not the others :bonk:

Please, Keep the bugs reports coming for the 1809 year! :cwboy:
Regards!

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jastaV
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Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:26 pm

Ardie wrote:Bought the game a few weeks ago and been playing the Spanish campaign for some time...and noticed these problems:


1. The one element units lose their original (the element name!) name if added into an existing division and/or when disassembling an existing one. For example a French arty unit of 1e Bie 1C (unit name) would then replace the element name (which could be something like 1st Co of the 5th art Rgt fe).


Guess, it's because of the way element name is encoded in scenery files: that to say elements are named in so far, and as long as components of superior formations: Divisions and Brigades. So, when you disband a Division or Brigade most informations related to it, including element names "disband" too.
In other words there is no name related to the single element.

2. Several French leaders have one of their abilities duplicated as fe Loison has 2 pillager abilities and Delaborde has 2 defender abilities.


Cannot say if leaders are able to acquire new abilities with experience......If so, may be a duplicate of a starting owned ability!?
If not, it's an editing bug related to leader MDL file.

3. There are some mixups with some Spanish leaders. These are Marques de Zayas (who's named de Zerain) and with the identical twins Carabajal and Carbajal. These are because of mistakes in model and unit files. Also 2 duplicate leaders for Cagical (spa) and Bonet (fra) who appear at the start of the campaign and are to be appear again in the event file.


Possibly a mistake in the setup file for the campaign, in the models file or in events file for "reinforcement" leaders.
I'm referring to excel template files, of course!
Anyawy guess AGEOD engine should not support twin duplicates......May be instead two different "profiles" for the same leaders are used here: more leaders have in fact more than one MDL file.



4. Some events don't fire up...for example the Joseph, King of Spain doesn't show up which leads to Murat disappearing suddenly and Joey Boney appearing instead. (The event is missing the location $Madrid in the command line - I tested it with that and it worked).


Event related bugs are possible: guess I have catched a minor one with 1813 scenery!
It's also true more events have a random chance of beeing activated.
So do nor expect to see all same events activated when playing that same campaign a second time.
BTW, events management is a very complex matter: I just started looking at it.

Ardie
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Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:33 pm

to Jasta:

Guess, it's because of the way element name is encoded in scenery files: that to say elements are named in so far, and as long as components of superior formations: Divisions and Brigades. So, when you disband a Division or Brigade most informations related to it, including element names "disband" too.
In other words there is no name related to the single element.


I think that there's something wrong with the divisions. This isn't a problem with just those divs that are there in the start of the campaign but with future ones also. I tested with O'Donnel's force which consisted of leader, a regular brigade and 2 single element provincial militia battalions.

Now, those mil. battalions have unit level names like 1/Mil/Coruna and an element name like Rgto. Mil. de Coruna and when I combine these units into a Division and then reverse it, those militia units have still their unit names which have also replaced the element names. I don't remember if this was a problem in AACW.

Cannot say if leaders are able to acquire new abilities with experience......If so, may be a duplicate of a starting owned ability!?
If not, it's an editing bug related to leader MDL file.


Yup. The duplicated abilities were in the model files. I edited all the French leaders in the campaign just to be sure.

Possibly a mistake in the setup file for the campaign, in the models file or in events file for "reinforcement" leaders.
I'm referring to excel template files, of course!
Anyawy guess AGEOD engine should not support twin duplicates......May be instead two different "profiles" for the same leaders are used here: more leaders have in fact more than one MDL file.


All 3 are correct. I checked all the leaders (Eng, Fra, Spa and Por) and edited them so they now appear correctly (with their real names and all) in the campaign (with the exception of the 2 French division commanders of Junot's Army of Portugal who are supposed to appear again).

Event related bugs are possible: guess I have catched a minor one with 1813 scenery!
It's also true more events have a random chance of beeing activated.
So do nor expect to see all same events activated when playing that same campaign a second time.
BTW, events management is a very complex matter: I just started looking at it.


Yeah, but mostly they are minor bugs which at this phase should've been cleared out.

I played a little with the Cintra event by adding Burrard (Eng 3-star, appears with the Peninsular Army) and Moore. Burrard gets removed with Dalrymple and Wellesley by the event. I can believe it's difficult and time consuming.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Spanish campaign could do some cleaning up. There are lots of little things that need to be sorted out. I had to study the event file just in order to find out what the heck was happening with my French regiments and Brigades disappearing.

AACW had tooltiptexts for the events...NCP could use them too, IMO.

Still, I'm having fun.

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Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:32 pm

The mysterious disappearances are not only related to events. IN 1809 especially the French can lose a lot of units to... well something mysterious. I blame it on the epidemics event which reduces cohesion so much that elements start disappearing. It hits randomly though...

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Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:55 am

Epidemics are one of the causes...there is another one (and we indeed lack a more complete information message about this) which is that by 1809, the French gradually removed regiments from Spain to send them back to Germany to counter growing Austrian threats...hence a possible loss of men

Here is the event

StartEvent 1
Conditions NULL
MinDate 1809/04/09
EvalEvent evt_nam_CMN_FifthCoalition1809|=|1
Actions NULL
Probability 75
DescEvent evt_desc_CMN_FifthCoalition1809bis
SelectSubUnits Area $Theater_Spanish_Peninsula|Faction Tags FRA|Families $famLine
AlterCuSubUnit ApplytoList|Kill|Attempts 15|Probability 75
SelectSubUnits Area $Theater_Spanish_Peninsula|Faction Tags FRA|Families $famCavalry
AlterCuSubUnit ApplytoList|Kill|Attempts 5|Probability 75
EndEvent NULL
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Ardie
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Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:54 pm

Yeah, I figured out that this is the cause of disappearing French units. I have mostly lost single Regiments from Divisions and Brigades but also whole single element Brigades too.

Not too much detective work as 1 round later from the 5th Coalition event my units started receiving replacements.

Ok, back to the strange stuff:

1. The French start with 2 Militia battalions which disappear as soon as they are released from Divisions.

2. You can get 5 Militia (Fra) replacements from Military Options but they are not of any use as there are no militia units for the French.

3. The Garde de Paris Brigade (starts under Mouton in Bayonne) gets a German replacement Rgt. even if the unit is tagged as French. The German replacement unit is tagged as RHC (Rhine Confederation?).

4. The Rgt de Westphalie which starts in one of the Fra divisions under Murat in Madrid is actually a Brigade as it is capable of absorbing another German Rgt of infantry.

Most of this has been reported earlier, IIRC.

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Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:01 pm

Actually I haven't found that the epidemics have hit me too hard. Maybe it's just me but the units are just a little bit too brittle in this game which leads to a massive consumption of replacements.

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Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:42 pm

PhilThib wrote:Epidemics are one of the causes...there is another one (and we indeed lack a more complete information message about this) which is that by 1809, the French gradually removed regiments from Spain to send them back to Germany to counter growing Austrian threats...hence a possible loss of men

Here is the event

StartEvent 1
Conditions NULL
MinDate 1809/04/09
EvalEvent evt_nam_CMN_FifthCoalition1809|=|1
Actions NULL
Probability 75
DescEvent evt_desc_CMN_FifthCoalition1809bis
SelectSubUnits Area $Theater_Spanish_Peninsula|Faction Tags FRA|Families $famLine
AlterCuSubUnit ApplytoList|Kill|Attempts 15|Probability 75
SelectSubUnits Area $Theater_Spanish_Peninsula|Faction Tags FRA|Families $famCavalry
AlterCuSubUnit ApplytoList|Kill|Attempts 5|Probability 75
EndEvent NULL



Bear with me coz I'm not exactly a genius in computers. :nuts: So does this mean that random regiments are lost? Instead of removing the regiments physically, can't we reduce the number of replacements? By 1809 every player will have accumulated a number of replacements. This could work like some other events that reduce the pool of replacements.

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Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:09 pm

to Offworlder:

Bear with me coz I'm not exactly a genius in computers. So does this mean that random regiments are lost? Instead of removing the regiments physically, can't we reduce the number of replacements? By 1809 every player will have accumulated a number of replacements. This could work like some other events that reduce the pool of replacements.


Yup. Random regiments get lost.

I agree that this can get quite harsh for the French player if one is unlucky. I once lost half of the strenght of a 2 division Corps.

So, I'd support the idea that only replacements are taxed away.

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Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:55 pm

Why not, you can tweak the event if you wish. :coeurs:

However, historically, whole regiments were removed, not just a few companies here and there..the French used to do it this way (unlike the Brits) and, after all, the Emperor needs those regiments elsewhere :niark:
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Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:12 am

PhilThib wrote:Why not, you can tweak the event if you wish. :coeurs:

However, historically, whole regiments were removed, not just a few companies here and there..the French used to do it this way (unlike the Brits) and, after all, the Emperor needs those regiments elsewhere :niark:


Then why not remove specific regiments rather than random ones? I mean sometimes it becomes really crazy. Once I lost 2 Italian brigades, the Westphalian brigade, several dragoon regiments and several French single element brigades. So why not remove specific regiments (maybe we should find out which ones were historically removed) and then its up to the player to have sufficient replacements to compensate. After all the brigades that were removed in toto are still removed by events. It is the very randomness of the event as it is that really makes it such a big drawback for the game. Remember its not like the French are thick on the ground compared to the Spanish and their allies.

On another matter - will the Spanish units serving in French service be implemented? M

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Thu Aug 07, 2008 7:32 am

I'll be glad to remove specific regiments instead, but this is barely feasible now; because:

* you do not know where they will be upon removal time, but, more important
* if ever they still exist (and if they were destroyed, the Emperor would have asked for "another" regiment)
* I do not know enough of the war history (nor do I have now the time to research it) to check for exact names and dates... which, btw, would make it a bit too predictable...after all, this is a game :sourcil:

Hence the randomness.... :indien:
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Ardie
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Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:51 pm

Hmm...maybe I could just reduce the hits and modify the success propability?

The Brits sent some of their single battalion regiments back home to recruit and refit.

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Thu Aug 07, 2008 7:56 pm

Actually I'm under the impression that Napoleon drafted a lot of personnel rather than units from the Spanish theatre. These veterans would than be used as kernel around which new units were built.

I appreciate the problems that this feature causes in game, but for me its a real game breaker. I would rather favour a big hit on the reinforcement ledger than the units in the field. Unfortunately the very randomness of this event, usually coupled with epidemics could easily destroy whole corps over a few turns.

Incidentally one other gripe I got (sorry just emptying my bag of problems with the game so bear with me :fleb: ) is that the French should be allowed to build more HQs. I say build because though the original 2 came with Napoleon (so to say), when the conflict dragged on, each marshal became a little warlord. At least 2 buildable HQs should be allowed for the French to mimic the arrival of Marshals like Massena and Marmont who virtually ran their own show, oblivious to central authority. On the other hand the Spanish should be allowed a few buildable HQs too, because many juntas really operated on a local basis without consulting much the Central Junta.

BTW could you also put in a few more event generated (only) reinforcements for HQs, supply trains and pioneers? In the normal short campaigns of NCP this doesn't matter much, but in the Spanish Ulcer campaign it is vital because these units get whittled down quickly due to the weather and terrain.

end gripe: sorry :innocent:

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Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:30 pm

(In reference to your second point...)

I haven't played NCP, but the issue with adding more HQ's is that they didn't exist. Napoleon tried to run it all, and from what I gather, the game simulates that the best way it knows how.

Also, units (even large-ish ones) operating independently does not translate to them having their own HQ. While all units of Bn. size or greater would have an 'HQ', the benefits given from a proper unit in game do not come from such commands.

Again, I have not played the game. But, from what I have read on these forums, it seems they model the issues faced by both sides reasonably well.
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Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:51 pm

Not in Spain. Napoleon only stayed there for a few months. Then he left never to return. Although Joseph was supposed to be the chief, many top generals and marshals operated on their own. In fact Spain was divided up in areas each with its army and general/governor. French failure can be attributed to such divisiveness.

Also I hope that one day in a future patch once the Grande Armee leaves, many of its units and generals leave too. This would make the game more interesting and more historical...

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Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:26 pm

Offworlder wrote:Not in Spain. Napoleon only stayed there for a few months. Then he left never to return. Although Joseph was supposed to be the chief, many top generals and marshals operated on their own. In fact Spain was divided up in areas each with its army and general/governor. French failure can be attributed to such divisiveness.


French failure in Spain can be attributed to a LOT of factors. My point was that Napoleon always tried to control everything, whether he was there or not. The divided command was not a product necessarily of his absence, but of his inability/unwillingness to lay command in another's hands.

I'm not trying to go back and forth here. To summarize: I think the shortages of HQ's makes historical sense.
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Fri Aug 08, 2008 6:55 am

hehe... then we agree to disagree ;)

Also from the little I remember, many major formations of the Grande Armee went home in response to the Austrian sabre rattling in 1809 (not just the Guard). If this could be implimented somehow together with an option to raise fresh brigades (which was what happened), it would make the game more interesting and long lasting. As it is now, with the arrival of the Grande Armee, its easy to capture cities denying the Spanish the ability to recruit their massive armies.

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Fri Aug 08, 2008 1:26 pm

to Offworlder:

Incidentally one other gripe I got (sorry just emptying my bag of problems with the game so bear with me ) is that the French should be allowed to build more HQs. I say build because though the original 2 came with Napoleon (so to say), when the conflict dragged on, each marshal became a little warlord. At least 2 buildable HQs should be allowed for the French to mimic the arrival of Marshals like Massena and Marmont who virtually ran their own show, oblivious to central authority.


I've been fine with the available 2 for the French and the 4 for the coalition. However, if these would somehow get destroyed then there should be an event which recreates them...maybe.

The lack of HQs effectively simulates the French conditions in Spain, IMO.

BTW could you also put in a few more event generated (only) reinforcements for HQs, supply trains and pioneers?


I did just that in my campaign and it works fine (added some for the junta events and some for the regular replacement schedule). I noticed that in late 1808 these support units can be down to half strenght even after very careful use.

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Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:49 pm

Ardie wrote:to Offworlder:
I did just that in my campaign and it works fine (added some for the junta events and some for the regular replacement schedule). I noticed that in late 1808 these support units can be down to half strenght even after very careful use.


Hope that the developers could insert it in a future patch especially since some of the units created by event (supplies and pioneers) start off really understrength.

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Sun Aug 10, 2008 5:17 pm

Err...just in case...I meant I added some replacements for the pool.

Some more oddities I forgot to add previously:

1. 2 Portuguese commanders of Mafra Depots (the arty parks) appear as brigadier generals but their tooltips show them as 2 stars.

2. One brigade under Escourier (spelling?) in Madrid has another one of those French brigades which start understrenght but receives a German regiment. Incedentally the starting French regiment is composed of Paris Garde battalions.

That's it...more later.

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Sun Aug 10, 2008 8:16 pm

And btw the Portugese get generals as reinforcements too.

The biggest problem is that if you manage to save the Army of Portugal, you still get the Army of Portugal reconstituted with the same generals and all.

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Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:17 pm

The biggest problem is that if you manage to save the Army of Portugal, you still get the Army of Portugal reconstituted with the same generals and all.



If that happens to me...I dump the generals into Lisbon so that they get lost with the Cintra event.

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Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:32 am

I meant the French Army of Portugal under Junot.Why should French generals disappear with the Cintra event?

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Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:45 pm

Offworlder wrote:I meant the French Army of Portugal under Junot.Why should French generals disappear with the Cintra event?



That's a good question. I'm under the impression that the French Army of Portugal was historically captured by the British after the battle of Vimeiro. That's why there's the Cintra event.

Another question is why there is the Cintra event in the first place? My guess is that is was a significant event that had effect on the British actions later in that year (leading to the retreat to Corunna and to the death of Moore).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok. Back to the strange stuff:

1. The depot in Toulouse is named Depot de Perpignan and vice versa. The depot in Ciudad Rodrigo is something else. Somebody at Ageod should check spelling.

2. I don't understand why create single element brigades if there's only 1 regiment in the unit as there are regimental units in the game too.

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Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:28 pm

Problem is that sometimes, when the French Army of Portugal is activated prior to Wellington's landing, its possible to save it by breaking through to Ciudad Rodrigo. Yet if you manage to save them, the army still "reforms" with the same generals and all, once Napoleon appears on the scene.

The Cintra event relates to the Convention of Cintra whereby the British Generals Burrard and I forgot the other ones, repatriated Junot's men after they were defeated by Wellington. Parliament wanted to parade the prisoners and use them as a bargaining counter in a possible peace treaty. So basically courtmarshalled all the generals involved in the Convention of Cintra, in the meantime appointing Moore as head of the Army. It would be nice in the game if Moore appears to lead the army even for a short while because he was credited with being the father of the British army.

-------------------------------------------------

Another strange thing is that when Reynier appears on the scene, whichever division he commands in labeled 7 Corps.

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Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:32 pm

Offworlder wrote:Problem is that sometimes, when the French Army of Portugal is activated prior to Wellington's landing, its possible to save it by breaking through to Ciudad Rodrigo. Yet if you manage to save them, the army still "reforms" with the same generals and all, once Napoleon appears on the scene.

The Cintra event relates to the Convention of Cintra whereby the British Generals Burrard and I forgot the other ones, repatriated Junot's men after they were defeated by Wellington. Parliament wanted to parade the prisoners and use them as a bargaining counter in a possible peace treaty. So basically courtmarshalled all the generals involved in the Convention of Cintra, in the meantime appointing Moore as head of the Army. It would be nice in the game if Moore appears to lead the army even for a short while because he was credited with being the father of the British army.

-------------------------------------------------

Another strange thing is that when Reynier appears on the scene, whichever division he commands in labeled 7 Corps.


Well, I guess there should be somekind of check for the recreation of Armee de Portugal.

I added Burrard to appear with Peninsular Army (he disappears with Cintra) and Moore to lead the Brits (he appears with Cintra). The problem is that he's senior to Wellesley when Wellington returns.

The Reynier thing is easily remedied by altering his SetName status in the event file. I recommend it.

I made a lot of corrections to the event file myself after a few first games.

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Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:22 am

Maybe you can make an event that remove Moore?

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