The Railroad from Lexington, Ky to Knoxville, Tn...

[jimwinsor]

...seems to be apocryphal:

http://www.dean.usma.edu/HISTORY/web03/atlases/american_civil_war/html/acw02.html

Same goes for the rail line between Knoxville and Gallatin.

My various civil war paper maps (inside cover of Shelby Foote, History Channel Club CW Map, etc...) concur, these rail lines seem ahistoric.

Although they could be in for gameplay reasons (?)

[LMUBill]

The railroad from Knoxville to Lexington wasn't built until the 1880's, That is when they dug the railroad tunnel under Cumberland Gap.

The Southern Railroad, (actually Cincinnati and Southern) which goes from Lexington to Chattanooga was built about the same time. One cool thing about the Southern line, especially from Burnside, KY, through the mountains is that it was built by engineers who had originally travelled most of the same route when they went with Burnside and the Army of the Ohio from Kentucky to Knoxville in 1863.

There was only one rail line in the East Tennessee area during the war, The Tennessee and Georgia. It followed a line roughly parallel to modern U.S. 11 (and 11-e north of Knoxville). It entered the state at Bristol and went through Jonesville, Greeneville, Bulls Gap (where a spur line ran to Rogersville), Russellville, Strawberry Plains, Knoxville (and another spur line to Clinton), Loudon, Athens and Cleveland. At Cleveland the line split with one branch going down the valley directly to Dalton, Georgia, and the other branch going through Ooltewah to Chattanooga.

All of this is on the map that was linked to above, but with a little more detail added.

The single line was one of the main reasons the CSA kept troops in the area to keep East Tennessee in the south. It was also the reason for such incidents as Carter's Raid and the Bridge Burners in upper East Tennessee who attempted to burn several rail bridges and were later hanged.

[jimwinsor]

Yeah, and it looks like Louisiana and Texas are not as well railed as the game makes them, either. Hmmm.

This rail to Knoxville from Ky is significant IMO, as it essentially opens up a major invasion route into the south that did not exist historically. Yes Burnside did it, but he had a hell of a time getting there over dirt wagon trails, and massive logistical problems doing it, IIRC.

[LMUBill]

Yeah, and it looks like Louisiana and Texas are not as well railed as the game makes them, either. Hmmm.

This rail to Knoxville from Ky is significant IMO, as it essentially opens up a major invasion route into the south that did not exist historically. Yes Burnside did it, but he had a hell of a time getting there over dirt wagon trails, and massive logistical problems doing it, IIRC.

Yep. Burnside had to split up the army into three parts and send them by different routes. All of those routes have railroads going along them now. The Southern goes along the western route (as does US-27), the eastern route through Cumberland Gap was built in the 1880's and parallels US 25 and 25-E for a lot of the way and the middle route was built in the 20th century to shorten the line from Knoxville to Lexington. This route parallels I-75.

[TeMagic]

Well, I for one sure hope that the ahistorical railroads gets fixed. An offensive (of any size of importance) across the Appalachians (sp?) should really be a difficult task, if not outright impossible.

[mikee64]

Did we ever hear from anyone from Ageod on this? I agree it is a big deal, especially the Knoxville to Lexington line. I didn't think I remembered this line from back when playing VGs CW, and I just looked at the map and it's not there, either.

Until this gets fixed (unless there is a gameplay reason for it, although I can't imagine what it would be) I think I'm going to ask PBEM opponents to agree to destroy these sections of rail and make them "unrepairable".

BTW, nice map link jim.

[tagwyn]

Pocus: This RR business is important!! They must be fixed!! L3

[Montbrun]

CSA rail lines:

[PhilThib]

Correcting this is a huge work, because it implies re-drawing the graphic of large sections of the map, a long and cumbersome process (in addition Sandra is no longer in the team, so we have to sub-contract this).

I have enclosed herewith a low-qualityjpeg selection of the Appalachian region where I removed the two most cumbersome RR (red slashes). If this is OK (please confirm), then I'll do an implementation for this graphically, while I change the DB...

[jimwinsor]

Yeah, it isn't pretty, but it'll have to do for now! I've observed from other games that graphics are the hardest things to patch, and companies in general will do it very reluctantly. So, I think it's great you are making the effort here, thanks!!!

There are other rails that probably should go too (the only connecting Texas with Louisiana, for example). We should probably do a list of all the provinces involved, based on the rail maps above...

[LMUBill]

You might want to remove that whole section through Lebanon to Mt. Vernon in Kentucky as well. Had that railroad been there, the battle of Perryville (and the chase of the Confederates by the Union afterward) would have been very different. The route the railroad follows was a macadamized road as far as Crab Orchard (about 10 miles from Mt. Vernon) where the road started getting into the mountains.

The retreating CSA forces had to split up into 2 separate "columns" with one following the edge of the mountains to near Richmond where they followed the old Boone Trace and the Wilderness Road back thru Cumberland Gap. Bragg and the main force went from Crab Orchard down he "main" road (the Wildeness Road) to Cumberland Gap.

The Wilderness Road basically went through Cumberland Gap, crossed the river at what is now Pineville, went near the town of Barbourville (missed the town by a couple of miles.... the "Battle of Barbourville" actually happened about 4 miles from the town) and then up through London. North of London at Hazel Patch the road forked with the main Wilderness Road going through Mt. Vernon to Crab Orchard and eventually Stanford, Danville and Harrodsburg and Boone's Trace going through Jackson Coiunty to Richmond and eventually Boonesboro. The battle of Wildcat Mountain (or Camp Wildcat) was on the Wilderness Road a few miles north of Hazel Patch.

In 1864 Grant thought about using that route as a supply line and to send troops up the valley from East Tennessee into Virginia, but after riding along that route to get from Knoxxville to Cincinnati he decided against it because the roads were in such bad shape.

Sorry to ramble.

[PhilThib]

We should probably do a list of all the provinces involved, based on the rail maps above...

YES exactly, we could them do the patching much faster...because I don't have time for this right now...help most welcome

[tc237]

Here is an attempt at removing the unwanted railroads from the map.
A zip file with the fixed regions is attached. This is only a "graphics" fix, I haven't changed any data files, someone else can give that a shot.
Let me know how it works.
If there are other change requests I may be able to try fixing them also, but I will need specific locations and detailed instructions.(only removing RR's, not adding, that is above my pay grade and skill level )

Sorry if the screenshot is to big:


Download the RR_Fix_Mod_1.0.zip.
Un-Zip the new region .bmp images into C:\Program Files\AGEod's American Civil War\ACW\Graphics\Regions

They will overwrite the original files, so download the Original_Map_Regions.zip as a backup.

[Stonewall]

The problem with the maps posted is that they are not definitive and only cover major lines. There are many many rail lines in existence in 1861 that are NOT included with the maps people are posting.

I've got an 1850 map of Kentucky that suggests a line existed from Lexington to Knoxville. It starts in Knoxville and runs north into Whitley County Kentucky, then does an s-curve northeast into Knox County before turning back northwest back through Whitley county. Then it runs North by Northwest through Laurel and Rock Castle Counties. In Rock Castle at the town of Mt. Vernon, the line turns almost due north into Madison County when at Richmond, it turns north by northwest again straight into Lexington. Then its due north straight to Cincinnatti. Its part of the Charleston and Cincinnatti RR. This is an 1850 map, so anything added after 1850 is not reflected.

Whether this line was suitable for military purposes, I don't know. I suppose my point is that before wholesale changes are made, make sure the information the changes are based upon is completely accurate. So far, the maps posted in this thread are good, but are by no means comprehensive.

[jimwinsor]

The problem with the maps posted is that they are not definitive and only cover major lines. There are many many rail lines in existence in 1861 that are NOT included with the maps people are posting.

I've got an 1850 map of Kentucky that suggests a line existed from Lexington to Knoxville. It starts in Knoxville and runs north into Whitley County Kentucky, then does an s-curve northeast into Knox County before turning back northwest back through Whitley county. Then it runs North by Northwest through Laurel and Rock Castle Counties. In Rock Castle at the town of Mt. Vernon, the line turns almost due north into Madison County when at Richmond, it turns north by northwest again straight into Lexington. Then its due north straight to Cincinnatti. Its part of the Charleston and Cincinnatti RR. This is an 1850 map, so anything added after 1850 is not reflected.

Whether this line was suitable for military purposes, I don't know. I suppose my point is that before wholesale changes are made, make sure the information the changes are based upon is completely accurate. So far, the maps posted in this thread are good, but are by no means comprehensive.

Hmmm, it looks like the rail line was indeed envisioned in 1850, but as this article on one it's tunnels indicates, never built:

http://www.walhallasc.com/stumphouse/history.htm

[Stonewall]

Hmmm, it looks like the rail line was indeed envisioned in 1850, but as this article on one it's tunnels indicates, never built:

http://www.walhallasc.com/stumphouse/history.htm

I'll be. I wonder why they would put a "planned" railroad on a Congressionally mandated geologic survey as if it already existed? Especially since the map has a key symbol for "planned" road, rail, and canal routes.

[runyan99]

Here is an attempt at removing the unwanted railroads from the map.

Let me know how it works.

Your screenshot looks pretty well done to me.

[Franciscus]

@ TC237: your images look fine to me. If they are ok'd by AGEod I will probably use them. But what about winter textures ? They should also be corrected, I think.

Good job.

[tc237]

...But what about winter textures ? They should also be corrected, I think...

Oops, forgot about the winter textures.
I'll work on them after I get more feedback.

They should be easier.
By the way, it was done with GIMP. I used the "stamp" tool to copy&paste adjacent pixels onto the RR's. Took about 2 hours to do.

[LMUBill]

I'll be. I wonder why they would put a "planned" railroad on a Congressionally mandated geologic survey as if it already existed? Especially since the map has a key symbol for "planned" road, rail, and canal routes.

Maybe money was the issue. all the maps in the Official Military Atlas have the railroads in Kentucky (going toward Knoxville) ending at Lebanon and Nicholasville. Now looking at the map there are extensions from Lebanon to near London and a point on the Rockcastle River and from Nicholasville to north of Somerset, with the lines crossing south of Danville (at what is now Junction City, where the Southern and L&N lines did cross when they were finished).

The same thing appears on the Lexington and Big Sandy RR with a solid line along the route with the "track marks" going from Ashland to near Grayson. It is also marked "located and partly finished" so when that dark line appears it must be the planned route with some grading work done but no track laid.

If you have access to the atlas or anyone with the atlas on CD-Rom it is Plate CXLI. I would try to scan it but the book is huge and I don't have a scanner.

[Pocus]

excellent work, but we have a map version without any rails, so we can replace things on our side too (but you help can be needed if we want to remove only one rail amongst some others for a given region).

[gbs]

But.....since this is just a graphics fix, doesn't the AI still think there are rail lines there for supply movement, speed of movement etc ???? If so I will leave it like it is.

[Korrigan]

You're right.
Obviously, an official patch or a mod should correct both the graphics and the Database.

[Franciscus]

If I may add my 2 cents, I would say that major changes (namely the Lexington to Knoxville RR, which existence is an error with potential strategic repercussions, maybe Texas) should be corrected in an official patch. But AGEod should not, in my opinion, strive to be completely accurate in the minor details. It would be a gargantuan task, with many uncertainties - there were in the period after all many unfinished RR (Manassas, anyone ? ), and lots of construction, mainly in the North. - and it does not have real importance to possible more than 5% of the players.
The players that wish to engage in this kind of realistic change should do it maybe via a mod.

Good gaming.

[Lonster]

If I may add my 2 cents, I would say that major changes (namely the Lexington to Knoxville RR, which existence is an error with potential strategic repercussions, maybe Texas) should be corrected in an official patch. But AGEod should not, in my opinion, strive to be completely accurate in the minor details. It would be a gargantuan task, with many uncertainties - there were in the period after all many unfinished RR (Manassas, anyone ? ), and lots of construction, mainly in the North. - and it does not have real importance to possible more than 5% of the players.
The players that wish to engage in this kind of realistic change should do it maybe via a mod.

Good gaming.

I guess I would disagree with you.

Yes, they don't need every detail, but this is a historical simulation, and so if there are "easy" things that they can do {substitute another graphic that they already have, and and tweak the terrain database}, then I would "vote" for the change. Of course it can wait until the next patch, and they have plenty of other things that they are also working on.

I guess this falls under the heading of how "historical" should a historical simulation be.

Maybe I'm part of the 5%, but I would think that it would be larger than that.

cheers

[Doomwalker]

OK, looks like I can stop my adjustments then. Here is the Marion, KY region redone.



You can see this region in TC's work above, but this is my rendition.


I have been useing this site for my map of rail in the 1865 time period.

http://www.csa-railroads.com/

Look under Maps for some really beautifull maps. I really like the Eastern US 1865 map.


I have not changed the graphics yet in game, I am working from a copy of the Regions folder. I don't want to be sitting back wondering why all these units are movin so quickly only to remember that I took out the rail.

[tc237]

So there is no need for a community mod/fix?

Doomwalker,
Did you modify one of my re-done regions or did you use the original game region?
That looks very good, much better than my work. It is very clean and no traces that the RR has been removed.

Do you have any tips or techniques you can share?

[Doomwalker]

I used the in game region files. I followed the same techniques that you spoke of I believe. I tend to do my copy and paste, but then go through and try to fix some of the repeat apperance that I get with the copy and paste.

I tend to use only 1 copy when I do stuff like this fix. I will then pick a diferent section and cross it over what I just put in, repeating until the entire project is done. Then I will zoom out to the 100% view and look for anything that looks like a repeat on the picture and fix with a small section of something else.

A good example of the fixes to repeats is the area to the right of the image above. It has those dots all over that area, and when I did my fixes it looked even worse. So I went through and did copies of some small 2 x 2 pixel sections and covered some of those dots.


Oh by the way TC, my OCD helps also.

[Doomwalker]

On a side note. After looking at my maps from the Confederate Railroads link I think that the map needs some serious rail clean up. I am not saying that I don't like what we have now. I am just thinking that it would make the Union attacks into the CSA more realistic without all that extra superhighway of the1860's.

[Pocus]

wait for our official fix, and then if things are not satisfying enough (we can't change everything), resume your work. Thanks for the effort though!