Athena, she's .. well, different

[Captain_Orso]

I haven't played in a long time and I'm playing the Full Campaign w/ Ky. I've heard that Athena has been tweaked here and there, had a facelift, lipo-suction and gotten implants Well maybe not the last three but you know what I mean.

I won't try to evaluate on a large scale how good she is, but she is tricky and not as wild on normal aggressiveness. But I she is pushing 2 army-HQs around in Virgina, using them like they were cavalry units and only has one army in the field; in Virgina. In Tennessee or elsewhere, she has none; I've lifted her skirt and had a look around (opened her orders).

This just seems to me to be a great waist of resources using army-HQs as cavalry while other regions go without an army. Just wanted to report this.

[MarkCSA]

Noticing the same, 3 to 4 armies in Virginia, none in Kentucky or Missouri (where I am mopping up, enthousiastically).

[Captain_Orso]

I was playing at Sgt. Level. At Lt. she does a lot more to build decent divisions and corps. What I really can't say is how much effort she is putting into 'training' generals that will be very important later; Grant, Meade, Hancock, Sherman, etc, but I am seeing some of them coming up in the ranks.

The thing with buying Army HQs and then not building armies with them is somehow really stupid, like she has a split-brain. One side says, "build the HQs, they're important", and the other side says, "ohhhh, looky, super-cavalry units, giddy-up cowboy".

One thing for sure is that she's a lousy economist on Lt. level still. As the Union if you aren't out-building the CSA and not dominating the seas with your navy, you're doing it wrong.

When I play the Union, there's nothing really fancy going on with the navy; it's hammer-n-anvil time. I build blockade fleets and transports and occupy the Blockade Boxes to the fullest extent that is useful, which is 5 blockade fleets each and 6 transport squadrons in each to keep them in supply, practically always within the first year. The only other things I regularly do is to build up the African Squadron Fleet to chase Semmes, and build up and invasion fleet to transport and protect the inevitable New Orleans invasion.

I'm seeing Athena using the navy a bit helter-skelter. She does occasionally do something aggressive with them, like sailing about 4-5 blockade fleets into James Estuary on the day the Virginia can set to sea, but that's a total waist; those blockade fleets are far more useful in the boxes than plugging the estuary so full that you can walk across for afternoon tea like they'd build the world's largest pontoon bridge.

She also actively patrols the oceans with fleets of varying sizes. I don't see this being effective as being the target of this--though it is occasionally exciting to watch--, nor have I ever used these tactics to any effectiveness. Also this is very expensive, because to intercept enemy shipping you have to be in attack RoE, and that causes a lot of random hits on your fleet while deployed, which means, long periods in harbor for repairs, which means you need multiple fleets to control the seas and constantly have costs for repairs.

I have as the CSA however built up large raiding fleets over time and put it under Semmes with the results of knocking out $150-200 plus WS per turn on sunken ships from Union income. I thought that this would not be that consequential for Athena's economy, but now I think that that was wrong; Athena was already staggering under a failing economy.

I've not followed Athena's strategy by checking her orders each turn, because I wanted to enjoy the game I was playing, but I may have to do that to acquire a clear overview of her strategies.

[charlesonmission]

Is there any reason to have fleets on offense in the blockade or shipping box?

I was playing at Sgt. Level. At Lt. she does a lot more to build decent divisions and corps. What I really can't say is how much effort she is putting into 'training' generals that will be very important later; Grant, Meade, Hancock, Sherman, etc, but I am seeing some of them coming up in the ranks.

The thing with buying Army HQs and then not building armies with them is somehow really stupid, like she has a split-brain. One side says, "build the HQs, they're important", and the other side says, "ohhhh, looky, super-cavalry units, giddy-up cowboy".

One thing for sure is that she's a lousy economist on Lt. level still. As the Union if you aren't out-building the CSA and not dominating the seas with your navy, you're doing it wrong.

When I play the Union, there's nothing really fancy going on with the navy; it's hammer-n-anvil time. I build blockade fleets and transports and occupy the Blockade Boxes to the fullest extent that is useful, which is 5 blockade fleets each and 6 transport squadrons in each to keep them in supply, practically always within the first year. The only other things I regularly do is to build up the African Squadron Fleet to chase Semmes, and build up and invasion fleet to transport and protect the inevitable New Orleans invasion.

I'm seeing Athena using the navy a bit helter-skelter. She does occasionally do something aggressive with them, like sailing about 4-5 blockade fleets into James Estuary on the day the Virginia can set to sea, but that's a total waist; those blockade fleets are far more useful in the boxes than plugging the estuary so full that you can walk across for afternoon tea like they'd build the world's largest pontoon bridge.

She also actively patrols the oceans with fleets of varying sizes. I don't see this being effective as being the target of this--though it is occasionally exciting to watch--, nor have I ever used these tactics to any effectiveness. Also this is very expensive, because to intercept enemy shipping you have to be in attack RoE, and that causes a lot of random hits on your fleet while deployed, which means, long periods in harbor for repairs, which means you need multiple fleets to control the seas and constantly have costs for repairs.

I have as the CSA however built up large raiding fleets over time and put it under Semmes with the results of knocking out $150-200 plus WS per turn on sunken ships from Union income. I thought that this would not be that consequential for Athena's economy, but now I think that that was wrong; Athena was already staggering under a failing economy.

I've not followed Athena's strategy by checking her orders each turn, because I wanted to enjoy the game I was playing, but I may have to do that to acquire a clear overview of her strategies.

[Captain_Orso]

NO!, absolutely not. If you are sending ships into the Boxes you should send them in defensive RoE and I personally set them to Avoid Combat. The reason being is that it takes such a long time to get them into the Boxes and even longer to get them out when they have lost cohesion, that having them lose cohesion on the way into the Boxes lessens their effectiveness and longevity in the Boxes and thus works against you.

Sorry, I apparently wasn't clear enough here. Athena is sending smaller and larger fleets along the Ocean Regions--just outside the Coastal Regions--on patrol, actively searching for my ships which are on the way to or from the Boxes or between the Gulf and Atlantic Coasts. To do this she has to set her fleets to Attack RoE, otherwise, if we meet, our fleets will simply pass each other by; the same as when 2 stacks in one land region are both on Passive RoE.

[charlesonmission]

So, a fleet on defensive in the shipping box will try to attack Semmes?

Charles

NO!, absolutely not. If you are sending ships into the Boxes you should send them in defensive RoE and I personally set them to Avoid Combat. The reason being is that it takes such a long time to get them into the Boxes and even longer to get them out when they have lost cohesion, that having them lose cohesion on the way into the Boxes lessens their effectiveness and longevity in the Boxes and thus works against you.

Sorry, I apparently wasn't clear enough here. Athena is sending smaller and larger fleets along the Ocean Regions--just outside the Coastal Regions--on patrol, actively searching for my ships which are on the way to or from the Boxes or between the Gulf and Atlantic Coasts. To do this she has to set her fleets to Attack RoE, otherwise, if we meet, our fleets will simply pass each other by; the same as when 2 stacks in one land region are both on Passive RoE.

[Captain_Orso]

So, a fleet on defensive in the shipping box will try to attack Semmes?

Charles

That really depends, I guess. My understanding is that the Boxes have their own contextual logic. So CSA brigs in either of the Blockade Boxes are Blockade Runners, per context. They are not trying to find anything but are trying to avoid contact; although I do often enough get reports as the CSA that one of my Brig Squadrons 'found' such-n-such a fleet and how many hits this encounter caused. I also get reports the other way around; e.g. Fleet so-n-so found Brig Squadron such-n-such and how many hits occur on each side because of this engagement.

The Shipping Box is different only in that transports also provide income and Oceanic Supply to owned harbors. This works for both sides now. I actually have income and supplies being transported to harbors as the CSA.

So how the engine actually decides who finds whom or if there is actually contextual intentions integrated into this I don't actually know beyond that 'Evade' and 'Patrol' values are used to determine whether fleets find each other. Whether CSA fleets are actually 'trying' to find Union fleets in the Shipping Box and trying to avoid them in the Blockade Boxes or whether it is totally random chance I do not know.

What I do know for sure--at least I've read it often enough in the forum--is that your RoE plays no role at all in the Boxes and that since being on Attack RoE causes cohesion loss, for no gain what so ever in the Boxes, it is best to stay on Passive RoE in the Boxes. Also, since how well you patrol or evade in the Boxes is affected by your cohesion it is better to have the good cohesion in the Boxes, which means that you should move to the Boxes in Passive RoE too.

If you are hunting the other side--usually as the Union--you might want to send your fleets to the Boxes with Attack RoE and then turn it off once arriving, as in the Boxes themselves they play no role what so ever, but on the way, until you've actually received the message that your fleet has arrived in one of the Boxes, you will have a higher chance of finding and attacking an enemy fleet, because you are still on open waters and patrolling. This will however shorten the useful time that your fleet has in the Boxes, so it is a strategic decision.

[lodilefty]

The fleets can be in any posture and still fight. AFAIK, it's all about spotting, hiding and probability.

The essential detail is that the loss of strength and cohesion while moving is lowest with "passive" posture.

[Captain_Orso]

The fleets can be in any posture and still fight. AFAIK, it's all about spotting, hiding and probability.

Yes, I suppose that that is true. With very large forces, at least with land units--I've never really tried it with fleets--even if both are in Passive RoE combat will still be initiated.

The essential detail is that the loss of strength and cohesion while moving is lowest with "passive" posture.

Well, yes there too. I kind of ignored fleets patrolling in just one a region without moving, but I'm pretty sure that just being at sea and in Attack RoE will cause cohesion and thus strength loss.

---

*grrr* I'm going back to bed Everything I said about 'Passive' RoE, I actually meant Defensive

[veji1]

I really think the AI should have cheat events, to allow it to organise better, and to historically promote the good leaders that are otherwise just waiting away. I for example would be fine with the AI getting free army creation (with just a numerical cap that increases with time), etc...

What I find frustrating with the Lt level is that the AI might be a bit more organised, but it just races around so fast because of its movement bonuses that the game just becomes like watching a mouse trying to escape from a closed room... Bonkers.

I think that in lots of strategy games, a form of cheating by the AI is OK. Full division teleport ? hell no, but free army HQ that just show up as needed to creat an army here and there ? Great.

I also think that the AI should have been programmed to have staging points for reinforcements and new generals, so that it can create divisions there and than dispatch them to the Armies. Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, St Louis should be convergence points for reinforcements for the Union where generals would be teleported as wish to create the new divs, and then moved to the Front...

all this C&C crap has meant that the 61 scenario has become unplayable against the AI, while the 62 helps somewhat to begin with because the force is already structured.