Athena's preoccupation with Harpers Ferry

[squarian]

I've played several games against the AI which have followed nearly the same pattern: at some time usually late in 1861 the Feds move to Harpers Ferry, Winchester or the vicinity and get stuck there, uncovering Washington in the process. Even moves to threaten Washington - taking Alexandria in force, or crossing the Potomac into MD - will not jar the Union into defending the capital.

Now, I realize it's only the AI - it's probably the best I've seen, but it's still just AI logic. I also know this isn't the first time the problem has been noted, and I'm not making any eureka discovery here. And lest anyone think this is one of those petulant rants which crop up from time to time, I'm aware of the limits the designers (pro or am) operate under, and I'm very appreciative of their continuing work on this game.

But - if there is a simple tweak which could solve or ameliorate this problem, how about it then? As I understand, Clovis altered the status of Harpers Ferry as an AI objective, and my experiments with SFV suggest he was on to something - faking the AI into abandoning Washington seems more rare with his mod than with vanilla. I know SFV can't be ported over wholesale, but can that adjustment (whatever it was he did) be done with the vanilla AI? Or if not, then maybe something else?

Great game, by the way.

[Gray_Lensman]

deleted

[tagwyn]

Clovis: Love your work, can you reformat to "vanilla" format? apy:

[squarian]

Gray - Thanks for the explanation; I think I'd absorbed a small part of it before, but you lay out the problem very clearly.

However - without diving into the vanilla database files myself (not yet, anyway), I wonder if these wouldn't somewhere contain a list of AI priorities and conditions? There must be a data entry somewhere instructing the AI to concentrate N troops in region A if conditions X and Y are met? I understand that Clovis' mods can't be directly ported - but maybe the vanilla AI databases can be adjusted.

It may be that even if theoretically possible, these files are hopelessly inaccessible - I frankly haven't taken a look. I'm not suggesting you or Pocus do it right now, right away - you're doing splendid work with other issues, and Pocus has new projects to keep him busy.

But it clearly is a glaring drawback to AI performance, and if corrected it would certainly enhance the replayability of the game, and therefore the value to Ageod of the original design work. Or so I think, anyway.

[Pocus]

I think the fix he did is along this way: Harper Ferry is only an objective if Fairfax is occupied. Something conditional like that, a string of objectives to conquer/protect. Lodilefty did that in several scenarios in WIA, this take time but the AI is much better.

[squarian]

From what Clovis has posted here about his changes, it sounds like HF is conditional, yes. He has referred to other objective cities being conditional also.

So a reasonable set of conditions for HF to be an objective might be:

HF = objective if
Alexandria is Union-controlled and
Washington is Union-controlled

Hopefully, if either Alex or Wash are lost, the AI would drop HF and concentrate on the next or nearest objective, whatever that might be - I'm assuming Washington is an AI objective, at any rate.

[Spharv2]

HF = objective if
Alexandria is Union-controlled and
Washington is Union-controlled

I would go further and make Manassas a prerequisite also. Until this is controlled, then Washington is only a turn away from being threatened. With Manassas under control, the Union has the central position in Northern Virginia, and can afford to look at secondary objectives like HF since a larger force should be sitting in the CSAs path to the capitol. If you only control Alexandria, then the possibility of a swing to the west into Pennsylvania by the South is wide open. There are commands that can be used to modify this behavior (We think), and I hope to start learning how to use them soon...like once work slows down and I finish up some work I've been putting off for VgN, so it'll be a bit before I can start, and once I do, no guarantees on how long it would take.

If you're interested in giving it a shot, check out the modding forum, there's enough info in there to get started.

[Clovis]

I've played several games against the AI which have followed nearly the same pattern: at some time usually late in 1861 the Feds move to Harpers Ferry, Winchester or the vicinity and get stuck there, uncovering Washington in the process. Even moves to threaten Washington - taking Alexandria in force, or crossing the Potomac into MD - will not jar the Union into defending the capital.

Now, I realize it's only the AI - it's probably the best I've seen, but it's still just AI logic. I also know this isn't the first time the problem has been noted, and I'm not making any eureka discovery here. And lest anyone think this is one of those petulant rants which crop up from time to time, I'm aware of the limits the designers (pro or am) operate under, and I'm very appreciative of their continuing work on this game.

But - if there is a simple tweak which could solve or ameliorate this problem, how about it then? As I understand, Clovis altered the status of Harpers Ferry as an AI objective, and my experiments with SFV suggest he was on to something - faking the AI into abandoning Washington seems more rare with his mod than with vanilla. I know SFV can't be ported over wholesale, but can that adjustment (whatever it was he did) be done with the vanilla AI? Or if not, then maybe something else?

Great game, by the way.

My solution is really simple: after a few turns, HF isn't anymore an objective. On the contrary, Winchester remains a VP location.

Interestingly, AI seems to be less interested in Winchester control than HF. I guess it's because HF region is belonging to WV and Winchester to Virginia...I'm not joking. WV belongs to the OHIO Great Aera. Great Aera are the basis of AI computations and something in the code must enhance attraction for units in the nieghbouring Great Aera.

Keeping Winchester forces CSA player to keep as most as possible control over Shenandoah. For the US side, war showed HF couldn't block the way to Confederate offensives. And the Potomac gunboats dissudas CSA player to take offensive on Washington by the eastern road.

[Eugene Carr]

I suppose once the armory was seized most of Harpers Ferry's importance waned, it became more of a trap than anything else.
I like the idea of it only being a VP city for a spell. As regards Winchester I prefer Strasburg and indeed Staunton as strategic points.

S!

[tagwyn]

I agree with this suggestion. In any event Athena should be devoted to protection of Richmond. t