Question About Depots and a Supply Suggestion

[Queeg]

This game is amazing and comes about as close to "realistic" as any game I think I've ever played. But I do have one observation about supply.

Having played several of the campaigns, including the full FIW from both sides, I'm wondering about the value of depots. It seems to me that so long as I have at least one supply wagon, I can march an army across the map, so long as I rest and replenish over the winter inside a city or fort, even a hostile one that I just captured. I've never seen the need to worry about building or capturing a depot. I know depots provide replenishment and ammo advantages, but supply wagons seem to work just as well, so long as you wait long enough for them to replenish.

I seems to me that supply wagons replenish too easily in "hostile" territory. As the English, for example, I can take an army with just one supply wagon and capture Fort Niagara, then move around the north shore of Lake Ontario, capturing forts as I go, then down the St. Lawrence all the way to Quebec - so long as I rest and replenish over the winter in the various forts and cities along the way. Even if the French move in behind me and recapture the forts and cities in my rear, my lone supply wagon somehow replenishes enough to keep me going. By the mid to late game, I usually have several supply wagons sitting around with no need to use them.

I know the game does not model a supply chain. But I'm wondering if it would make sense to limit the amount by which a supply wagon could replenish if not located in friendly territory or at a depot - for example, perhaps supply wagons not located in controlled areas or in a depot would replenish only half as much as those located in controlled areas or depots. While not exactly a supply chain, it would place greater emphasis on controlling your rear areas and building and protecting depots accessible to your front.

I'm sure there are some subtleties that I am overlooking, but my overall impression is that supply is a bit too easy and depots too unnecessary. Thoughts?

[Hobbes]

Good point Queeg, I would agree with that.
Chris

[Pocus]

Your points are very valid yes, perhaps we are providing too much supply generation overall in fact... The main point about the "subtleties" you hint at, is that the supply wagon draw supply chips from its region or adjacent ones, and if there is not enough, it won't resplenish well (my point is that nothing is drawn from thin air )

So perhaps you are talking about a small to medium sized force (4 or less rgts eg) with a wagon, which are able to be resupplied even if only adjacent to a friendly fort. In this case the auto-resupply would seems ok for me (at least to not cripple too much how AI considers resupplying).

If you are talking about a bigger force, then yes that would be too generous and we can recheck what are the values given. If you have some examples (save game) of situations where you think there is too much supply gathered, send them too me, it will be more convenient and faster to check what is at hand.

[Queeg]

I'll check my saves. I'm pretty sure I've seen it with even large forces. I'll look for it in my current game.

I recognize, too, that there are AI questions involved.

[anarchyintheuk]

Not too sure there is a problem . . . but if you want to reproduce the effects of a loc, you could calculate the supply gained by a force from adjacent areas by its percentage of control, regardless of the presence of an enemy force. Currently I think a force gathers all of the supply from adjacent areas w/o an enemy force in it. Just an idea.

[Pocus]

Not too sure there is a problem . . . but if you want to reproduce the effects of a loc, you could calculate the supply gained by a force from adjacent areas by its percentage of control, regardless of the presence of an enemy force. Currently I think a force gathers all of the supply from adjacent areas w/o an enemy force in it. Just an idea.

it already work that way. And supply is not generated and gathered for a given force, but overall for a faction , then it is distributed to units in the same region and lastly to units in adjacents regions.

Supply generation take into account how much military control you have, how loyals are the people in the region, the weather, if the region is pillaged, etc.

[aryaman]

From my experience playing the game, supply considerations are rather irrelevant, I have an ongoing PBEM game in which I have always moved my armies (British) with supply wagons, which I usually destroy or leave behind, I have never had any supply difficulty.

[Pocus]

There is several balance tweaks in the 1.10 patch, and you will get less supply wagons (both side), so they will be more precious for the player.

Also the fact that you move your armies with wagons slow them, so you pay an indirect cost to be kept well fed and fat ... nothing abnormal to be in supply if you want to move with wagons I would say (except in very hostile territory like Canada for the english in the FIW, or in winter where the supply is depleted fast).

[Queeg]

After playing through another FIW campaign, I'm convinced the problem isn't a big one - more of a tweak than a rewrite. While you can avoid serious supply problems by hauling a Supply wagon around with you, you do sacrifice a lot in terms of mobility. So there is a trade-off there, and perhaps tweaking the effects a bit will do the trick.

By the way, any ETA on the 1.10 patch? I'm trying to decide whether to start another campaign. Thanks.

[Pocus]

It should be out at the start of november, if things goes well (give +- 3 days).

[aryaman]

[quote="Pocus"]There is several balance tweaks in the 1.10 patch, and you will get less supply wagons (both side), so they will be more precious for the player.

Also the fact that you move your armies with wagons slow them, so you pay an indirect cost to be kept well fed and fat ]
Sorry, my bad
I meant WITHOUT supply wagons. As you say they slow you down, so I moved without them all the time, burning or keeping them behind. As I finished my movement usually in a city I didn´t experience any supply problems, OTOH my opponent kept moving with supply wagons, so i could catch him on the move several times. My point is not that there are too many supply wagons, but also that as apparently the game only takes in consideration where your army finish movement, as long as you finish in a city there is no problem with supply. Too easy IMO

[anarchyintheuk]

Sorry, my bad
I meant WITHOUT supply wagons. As you say they slow you down, so I moved without them all the time, burning or keeping them behind. As I finished my movement usually in a city I didn´t experience any supply problems, OTOH my opponent kept moving with supply wagons, so i could catch him on the move several times. My point is not that there are too many supply wagons, but also that as apparently the game only takes in consideration where your army finish movement, as long as you finish in a city there is no problem with supply. Too easy IMO

Armies in America operating in developed areas rarely had food problems, unless it was in a wilderness area and it was not able to forage or was moving fast (Burgoyne and Cornwallis, respectively) or had weather and logistical problems (Valley Forge and Morristown). Those exceptions seem to be accurately reflected in the game. Armies, especially the CA, would have had far greater problems obtaining ammunition had there been as much combat in the game as there was irl. Maybe reducing full supply chits is better or limiting their production to size 3 cities, although I don't see a problem w/ how supply is currently modeled imo.

[runyan99]

I have not noticed that wagons slow movement at all. Are you sure this is the case?

For example, the speed coefficient for wagons is 100%, and maybe 110% for the American wagons. This is the same speed, 100%, as an infantry regiment.

I have noticed that artillery units slow an army, as their speed is only 70%. But this is not the case with the supply wagons.

It seems like the wagons should move about as fast as the artillery....

[Pocus]

check movement type though... wheels don't like forests... feet care less!