AGEOD Forums

This has probably already been mentioned but I'll do it anyway. Blizzards in southern Florida? The climate model needs a little tweaking I think. On the brighter side, I love this game. I haven't had this much fun with a wargame in a long time, thanks.

This is an issue we are currently fixing. Not as easy as it seems. Will probably make it in a future patch

Just off the top of my head why have computer generated climate at all, especially in the small scenarios. Even if the climate was pre-programmed to be historical in a campaign game it wouldnt bother me at all. You could even pre-program 20 years of historical climate and randomly select each year in January. This would probably baffle even the most anal of players.

That would mean some code change (relatively easy) and huge database compilation (easy but not so 'easy' to do...a volunteer ?)

Generally speaking, the easiest way to improve the climate model would be to eliminate the possibility of snow/frozen conditions south of the Kentucky/Tennessee, the Missouri/Arkansas and the Virginia/North Carolina borders. Although it can snow south of these lines, it rarely amounts to more than a couple of centimeters and it doesn't stay around for more than a few days at most. Instead, when snow conditions are supposed to occur for these southern areas, just have the game engine convert the snow result to muddy conditions.

I wouldn't even have snow in the climate model from late April to mid-November ANYWHERE in the US, since deep snows that might severely affect operations over a 15-day period are very rare after mid-April. On the other hand, muddy conditions can occur in any of these areas much of the year, and especially in the winter months.

In my game I've been running into Tennessee and Mississippi snowstorms in late April and May. I don't ever recall hearing of a major snowstorm that time of year in the deep south. Major snowstorms last occurred there about the end of the Ice Age 15,000 years ago, but even then the snow didn't remain on the ground very long

Generally speaking, the easiest way to improve the climate model would be to eliminate the possibility of snow/frozen conditions south of the Kentucky/Tennessee, the Missouri/Arkansas and the Virginia/North Carolina borders. Although it can snow south of these lines, it rarely amounts to more than a couple of centimeters and it doesn't stay around for more than a few days at most. Instead, when snow conditions are supposed to occur for these southern areas, just have the game engine convert the snow result to muddy conditions.

I wouldn't even have snow in the climate model from late April to mid-November ANYWHERE in the US, since deep snows that might severely affect operations over a 15-day period are very rare after mid-April. On the other hand, muddy conditions can occur in any of these areas much of the year, and especially in the winter months.

In my game I've been running into Tennessee and Mississippi snowstorms in late April and May. I don't ever recall hearing of a major snowstorm that time of year in the deep south. Major snowstorms last occurred there about the end of the Ice Age 15,000 years ago, but even then the snow didn't remain on the ground very long

Von Beanie is absolutely correct in all particulars here. A little shorter winter on most of the map would be more in keeping with actual North American climate conditions (it's about right in the mountainous areas of the West).

I prefer variable rather than strictly "historical" weather. Uncertainty about the weather forecast is one of the great uncertainties we budding Lees and Grants need to account for in our grand planning.

Besides, if scant resources have to be allocated to the various game development tasks, I think weasther ought to be pretty low on the priority list (far behind improved AI command organization, for example).

pasternakski wrote:Von Beanie is absolutely correct in all particulars here. A little shorter winter on most of the map would be more in keeping with actual North American climate conditions (it's about right in the mountainous areas of the West).

I prefer variable rather than strictly "historical" weather. Uncertainty about the weather forecast is one of the great uncertainties we budding Lees and Grants need to account for in our grand planning.

Besides, if scant resources have to be allocated to the various game development tasks, I think weasther ought to be pretty low on the priority list (far behind improved AI command organization, for example).

I'm in 99% agreement. My 1% difference is that I do think weather should be given priority over any time consuming AI changes. I'll like to see Weather fixed, a few minor AI upgrades and at least a few of the missing general portraits sooner than having all it wait until its all fully fleshed out.

von Beanie wrote:Generally speaking, the easiest way to improve the climate model would be to eliminate the possibility of snow/frozen conditions south of the Kentucky/Tennessee, the Missouri/Arkansas and the Virginia/North Carolina borders. Although it can snow south of these lines, it rarely amounts to more than a couple of centimeters and it doesn't stay around for more than a few days at most. Instead, when snow conditions are supposed to occur for these southern areas, just have the game engine convert the snow result to muddy conditions.

I wouldn't even have snow in the climate model from late April to mid-November ANYWHERE in the US, since deep snows that might severely affect operations over a 15-day period are very rare after mid-April. On the other hand, muddy conditions can occur in any of these areas much of the year, and especially in the winter months.

In my game I've been running into Tennessee and Mississippi snowstorms in late April and May. I don't ever recall hearing of a major snowstorm that time of year in the deep south. Major snowstorms last occurred there about the end of the Ice Age 15,000 years ago, but even then the snow didn't remain on the ground very long

We would still need snow in the Appalachian regions of the south. The main pass through the Smokies between Tennessee and NC is not opened until around mid-April if I am not mistaken (I have been there a couple of times). It even snows in May and very rarely in June in some spots in the southern Appalachians at higher elevations. It gets cold in the mountains. Those higher mountain passes are frequently closed in the Winter for the duration, but lower passes exist and there is still snow that falls in these lower passes. Western NC and SC and VA and northern Georgia and even Alabama do get snow. The mountain provinces should get snow and Winter weather.

Chris

Having lived in Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, and Texas, I can tell you that it does snow there, in '93 Mississippi went through one godawful storm that had me trapped with no power for a week before I could get out. Everything from Memphis down past Jackson looked like a hurricane had come through from the ice and snow taking down trees.

Gargoyle wrote:I'll like to see Weather fixed, a few minor AI upgrades and at least a few of the missing general portraits sooner than having all it wait until its all fully fleshed out.

What I'm saying is that weather doesn't need intensive "fixing," just a minor tweak or two.

The portraits are a very minor thing, and can be added anytime as they are finished - no time taken from other tasks.

Stuff that affects how the game plays (including AI improvement) belongs at the top of the heap for me.

Agreed. Just a bit of tweaking. Shorter winters would probably do the trick.

When I see "snow" in Texas, I just think of it as ice. We definitely get that.

Just a reminder, the portraits are being done by an out-sourced artist.
So they really have nothing to do with the other parts of the game.
Although they will require changing any file that shows the leaders face, but I'm sure Ageod is smart enough to have this ready before the portraits are done.

Queeg wrote:When I see "snow" in Texas, I just think of it as ice. We definitely get that.

Muh Maw 'n muh Sis lives in Tejas ... they calls them storms "blue Northers."

I know it occasionally snows in the deep south, but if you have been playing this game for a while you will find deep south (i.e., Mississippi) snowstorms in April and May are commonplace. Most of the time when that region gets bad weather it results in mud, not snow/freezing conditions. The first night at Shiloh was marked by heavy thunderstorms, not snow, and that was in early April.

As for the central and southern Appalachians, modeling the weather as mud is good enough for me. It is already difficult enough to move through there with good weather. The mountains will become a much more formidable barrier if they just remove the ahistorical railroads that didn't exist at the time. You're forces will die of natural causes just trying to move through that area--regardless of the weather. I know, because I've tried it more than once and then regretted it.

Spharv2 wrote:Having lived in Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, and Texas, I can tell you that it does snow there, in '93 Mississippi went through one godawful storm that had me trapped with no power for a week before I could get out. Everything from Memphis down past Jackson looked like a hurricane had come through from the ice and snow taking down trees.

Hee hee hee. I remember that snowstorm that hit Miss. and Tenn. etc. in '93, it was a whopper.

Our Winters in Detroit are getting warmer it seems, but lasting a bit later. Glad I don't live in Michigan's upper Lower Penninsula or the UP, or Minnesota, Wisc., upstate NY, Maine, Montana, etc. Snow and especially ice are a real pain in more ways than one. Ice/sleet storms are the worse. One year here back in the 1970's or early 1980's we had 3 Ice Storms. The large trees and many large limbs were crahing continually all night and it sounded like mortars. One large and heavy Elm limb fell in front of my car and hit another car and another large Silver Maple limb fell directly behind my car and hit another car, so, I was lucky.

The Asheville area etc. of western NC can also really get nailed with snow and ice.

Yeah, for the game I can see snow in the mountains down South but not anywhere else and rain and mud should suffice. Maybe a 50% chance in the lower elevations of Tennessee and northern Alabama and Georgia but of short duration.

Kentucky and the western areas of Virginia could be classed right in there with the middle States of Kansas, Missouri, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, West Virginia, Pennsylvania, and about the southern 1/3 or 1/2 of half of Michigan's lower penninsula.

Chris 1/39, always on call, AAA-0 (Anything, Anytime, Anywhere, Bar None!!! (or Nothing)), but sometimes I just don't know anymore.

PS: Also, Columbia, SC (where Ft. Jackson is) and regions west of it can drop to 20F and less and get snow and ice accumulation because of higher elevations than the coastal areas. Still nothing like up north for duration and intensity, but still conditions like that can last for a day to a week.

Of course there's going to be snow on the ground way down south in the 1860's..... don't you know the earth was a frozen ball of ice in space before we started all that global warming?

von Beanie wrote:Although it can snow south of these lines, it rarely amounts to more than a couple of centimeters and it doesn't stay around for more than a few days at most.

The South has never had any centimeters of snow. But they have had many inches.

Its not only snow that is a problem IMO.

I've played two US campaigns to mid late 62 and in both Tn/ KY / Ar / MO.
I had either mud of snow until may. Mud posses problems too.
I get cohesion hits in mud too. No way to redo all the early 62 offensive fights of Tn /KY campaigns and Ar/Mo campaigns in feb april if u from time to time loss up too 30 hits of cohesion.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

Working out a realistic and efficient climate model is a long and cumbersome task. We have started it, but give us some time..

Will do.

PhilThib wrote:Working out a realistic and efficient climate model is a long and cumbersome task. We have started it, but give us some time..

You sound like me at work when upper management needs a report that I find particularily difficult. Many of the posters here have attempted to describe methods that would be easier. But there may be many reasons why those suggestions are off base.

I will not presume to tell you how to do your work. Heaven knows you have done a bang up jump so far.

I leave you with only one thought, if it seems too complicated, then it probably is. You might consider what I do in this case. The KISS system (you know what that is, right - Keep It Simple, Stupid.)

Simple weather model:

Four types of weather, basic model, could be tweaked for regional differentiation:

1) Good; only in Spring (50% chance), Summer (65% chance) and Fall (50% chance). No impediments to movement and combat, less atrition due to sicknes and and movement. This weather class would include 'normal' heat and rainfall. Movement is maximum allowed and sickness and movement attrition very low, maybe 5% maximum to keep the game playable and mechanics simple.

2) b) Hot; only in Summer (25% chance). Impediment to movement and movement is reduced by a percentage, maybe 20 or 25%, what ever fits into the game engine easily. Movement penalty (-20 or 25%), and sickness and straggling attrition rise.

3) c) Wet; All 4-seasons, Spring (30% chance), Summer (10%), Fall (30% chance), and Winter (25% chance). Movement penalty (-30 to 50%), and sickness and straggling attrition rise.

4) Bad; Only in Fall (20%), Winter (75%), and Spring (20%) seasons. Movement penalty (-50 to 75%) and sickness and straggling attrition rise.

Something simple, yet partially accurate and also fickle as the weather can be, and is a rough educated guesstimate as to the wims of the weather and its effects upon us poor, miserable humans.

Chris

So do I need to sit on this until weather gets fixed for maximum historical accuracy? I'm having a fairly strong (by my standards) campaign game going and just getting to winter 1861 and I don't want all of my progess undone by weather craziness.

I don't see it as a big thing, daddy (I'm sure someone who thinks I am wrong will attempt to correct me, of course).

As I gather from the foregoing (and from my own experience), the weather is a little extreme, particularly in the south, and too early and too late in the winter season. A "tweak," not a "revision" is needed here, the way I see it.

What you call it and whether it can be present at location "A" during month "B" is really all that is at stake here.

I think.

maybe I just need to read the weather sections of the manuel again. Just freaked me out when I saw frozen+harsh weather in southern AL in December 1861. Started worrying about my troops down there.

daddytorgo wrote:maybe I just need to read the weather sections of the manuel again. Just freaked me out when I saw frozen+harsh weather in southern AL in December 1861. Started worrying about my troops down there.

I know whatya mean. When my girlfriend got mad at me because she thought I was fooling around with somebody else behind her back, I started worrying about MY "troops down there."

Anyway, when I see bad weather on the map, I try to deal with it as "bad weather" and not pay too much attention to what it's called.

I trust AGEod to do its usual "hocus pocus" magic trick and get it all sorted out for us satisfactorily.

As Eddington said to Rock Torrey's son in "In Harm's Way," "Bums like your friend Owen are with us all the time, like bad weather. A real sailor, like your old man, only comes along every once in awhile."

the issue I have is that i'm not a fan of having to camp all my forces in the deep south in cities due to frozen lands. I knew my forces in some areas would be, but I was planning on using the time to shuffle things around as best I could and what-not.

Rail transport.