AGEOD Forums

Hi guys!

Perhaps this is an irrelevant issue, but some time ago I realized that some sharpshooters have a discipline value of 7 and others have a 10. Does anyone know what is the reason?

Thank you in advance.

Does the unit with a value of 10 have any experience stars?

None. They have just been built.

Yes, there are two different USA Sharpshooter models, and several units using them...

IIRC, the "better" one is for some "Elite" units, whereas the "other" one is for the buildable state units

Actually, they both have the same discipline value: 10 (the ones belong to the states and those from a elite brigade).

We all know that you can buy 2 types of sharpshooters. The first one as a single unit and the second one belonging to a brigade (2 Reg. Line Infantry + Sharp.). I also found other type between my troops (the third one).

Here I show some pictures (note the different discipline values):





So I think this is due to another reason... Although I don't know what it is.

Anyway, many thanks for your replies guys!

The first one is a standalone-built Sharpshooter regiment from Pennsylvania, the second and third belong to brigades. Just guessing, but I would guess that the third is from one of the Pennsylvanian bought XXS brigades. If so I would guess that the second is from one of the event generated elite brigades.

If you tell me which brigades the second and third one come from I can look up model and see what it says.

...

Okay, never mind, the second comes from the Philadelphia Bde and is a model 2 sharpshooter (mdl_USA_Shp2). Both the first and third are model 1 (mdl_USA_Shp1) and basically the standard model sharpshooter.

The models do not have a Discipline parameter so I will have to assume that Discipline is an abstract of several other parameters. Which exactly I have no idea.

BTW since the 1st and 3rd are model 1 sharpshooters and their Unit Display parameters are still not identical their differences might be caused by the one being under-commanded and the other not.

Captain_Orso wrote:The first one is a standalone-built Sharpshooter regiment from Pennsylvania, the second and third belong to brigades. Just guessing, but I would guess that the third is from one of the Pennsylvanian bought XXS brigades. If so I would guess that the second is from one of the event generated elite brigades.

If you tell me which brigades the second and third one come from I can look up model and see what it says.

...

Okay, never mind, the second comes from the Philadelphia Bde and is a model 2 sharpshooter (mdl_USA_Shp2). Both the first and third are model 1 (mdl_USA_Shp1) and basically the standard model sharpshooter.

Hi Captain_Orso!

First Off, I have to say you are my idol... And I think you have a great future as investigator due to your inferential mind.

Certainly, the second comes from the Philadelphia Bde. Although many sharpshooters of the brigades XXS also have a discipline value of 10.

The models do not have a Discipline parameter so I will have to assume that Discipline is an abstract of several other parameters. Which exactly I have no idea.

BTW since the 1st and 3rd are model 1 sharpshooters and their Unit Display parameters are still not identical their differences might be caused by the one being under-commanded and the other not.

It has become absolutely clear to me.

Well, Thanks a million for such a detailed explanation, my friend.

Warm Regards!

Awww shucks my head's gonna swell up an' I won't be able to put my hat on

Discipline is in each Model DB as the "TQ" value....

In the elder dayts , it was called "Total Quality", but "Discipline" seems so much better, yes?

Captain_Orso wrote:The models do not have a Discipline parameter so I will have to assume that Discipline is an abstract of several other parameters. Which exactly I have no idea.

The models do have discipline value, it is marked with TQ (troop quality), and according to my experience, it has mayor influence on battles, troop with higher discipline will hold to the end.

I can not believe it, we posted the same comment in the same minute...

OK, guys, thank you again for your replies.

Cheers.

Now I'm confused and irritated . I saw the TQ parameter and also speculated that it would be TroopQuality or something similar, but it doesn't match up with the Unit Displays.

These are the 2 models 1 & 2 with Unit Displays of each from In-Game. The differences in the models are [color="#0000FF"]highlighted[/color]. The rest is identical.

[table="width: 1, class: grid, align: left"]
[tr]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Model 2 with ** experience ======>[/td]
[td][/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

The TQ=9 of Model 1 shows as Discipline: 9 in the Unit Display. So why the dingity-dang-heck is the TQ=7 of Model 2 displayed as Discipline: 7 on Model 2 and Discipline: 8 with ** experience? That just doesn't make sense.

Hi there,

Interesting report, Captain_Orso.

I think if model 2 is a higher quality troop (TQ=10), it must have a discipline value of 10, instead of 7. And the model with 2 star experience, a discipline value +1 regarding to the discipline value of the base model, ie. 11. (From AACWWiki: For each odd level of experience (i.e. 1, 3, 5, etc.), units gain a +1 increase in their initiative, discipline, patrol and evasion values).

Anyway, I think it is not logical that a higher quality unit such as model 2 have a lower discipline value than model 1.

Captain Orso, have you noticed anything similar (differences between TQ model number and Discipline value) in other units. If you haven't, this could be a small bug with the US Sharpshooter model, either in graphical representation, or with the actual Discipline number.

Discipline is not the only difference. Offensive and Defensive fire as well as initiative, assault, and damage.

Jim-NC wrote:Discipline is not the only difference. Offensive and Defensive fire as well as initiative, assault, and damage.

There are two separate US sharpshooter models (with different Offensive and Defensive fire, Initiative, Assault and Damage), and everything is WAD except Discipline or TQ value.

Ace wrote:There are two separate US sharpshooter models (with different Offensive and Defensive fire, Initiative, Assault and Damage), and everything is WAD except Discipline or TQ value.

I desagree with you. The Sharp model with 2 experience star should have improved the following values:

Offensive Fire: 10 (+1)

Defensive Fire: 14 (+1)

Initiative: 11 (+1)

Range: 4

Rate of Fire: 3

Protection: 2

Discipline: 11 (+1). I think its real value should be 10, instead of 7.

Assault: 10 (+1)

Police: 3 (+1)

Patrol: 4(+1)

Evade: 8(+1)


Source: Experience AACWWiki

Ace wrote:Captain Orso, have you noticed anything similar (differences between TQ model number and Discipline value) in other units. If you haven't, this could be a small bug with the US Sharpshooter model, either in graphical representation, or with the actual Discipline number.

I've looked around a bit, but haven't been able to find any other discrepancies on other models. But I did find something that just has me scratching my head. It's a Sharpshooters model 2 but the TQ/Discipline matches the model file on this one .

This is an Indiana Bde. that IIRC cannot be very old (it's not even built into a division), but look at the values(!!). It matches exactly to all the values of the model file except the cohesion is 77 instead of 75.

Ethan wrote:I desagree with you. The Sharp model with 2 experience star should have improved the following values:

Offensive Fire: 10 (+1)

Defensive Fire: 14 (+1)

Initiative: 11 (+1)

Range: 4

Rate of Fire: 3

Protection: 2

Discipline: 11 (+1). I think its real value should be 10, instead of 7.

Assault: 10 (+1)

Police: 3 (+1)

Patrol: 4(+1)

Evade: 8(+1)


Source: Experience AACWWiki

Hola Ethan , they do increase; just not like described in the Wiki. Look back at post #13. The 2 Sharpshooters on the right are both model 2; the upper one with no experience, the lower with 2 stars/experience levels increased.

The Wiki say:

• For each odd level of experience (i.e. 1, 3, 5, etc.), units gain a +1 increase in their initiative, discipline, patrol and evasion values.
• For every even level of experience (i.e. 2, 4, 6, etc.), units gain a +1 increase in their offensive fire, defensive fire, assault, and police values.

Since the lower unit has 2XP everything listed should have gone up 1 point. But all the attributes, which should only go up on every even numbered XP actually went up 2(!!) and the initiative, which increases on odd-numbered XPs, did not go up at all ; and the Discipline still doesn't match to anything, but it did go up one.

Effects of Experience are regulated by the parameters found in \Settings\GameLogic.opt:

// ***** EXPERIENCE POINTS ***** //added September 13, 2011
// =================================================================
expMaxLevel = 1000
expProgCoeff = 100 // Prog Rate overall modifier in %
expXpGainCoeff = 100 // Xp gain overall modifier in %
expXpGainCoeffLeaderKill = 10 // Leaders get 10% of their subordinate SU xp gain
expXpGainCoeffLeaderDie = 5 // Leaders lose 5% of their subordinate SU xp worth loss
expXPGainWhenHittingH = 50 // this value of xp when hitting an enemy
expChancePerXPLevelTrain = 2 // % chance per turn per level to switch to TrainUpg
expXPLevelUpgRetainPerc = 75 // % xp kept when TrainUpg/TechUpg
expReplChanceSpendTechUpg = 50 // chance to spend a rpl when TechUpg
expAutoGainXPChance = 5 // % chance per turn to gain 1 xp
expAutoGainXPMaxLevel = 1 // max level that can be reached with autogain (VGN = 4)
expGainPtsOffFire = 50 // gain in hundredth of points to a given stat. Rounding to 1 starts at 0.50
expGainPtsDefFire = 50
expGainPtsInit = 25
expGainPtsRange = 10 // VGN is 0
expGainPtsROF = 10 // means first bonus is at level 11
expGainPtsDisc = 35
expGainPtsAslt = 65
expGainPtsPolice = 100
expGainPtsPatrol = 100
expGainPtsEvade = 100
expGainPtsCoh = 5 //3 for VGN
expGainPtsDetect = 7
expGainPtsHide = 7
expGainPtsAirRec = 50
expGainPtsAirCbt = 100
expGainPtsAirBmb = 100

Cohesion max is affected by several Leader Abilities as well..

Hola Captain_Orso!

Sometimes, it's a little bit difficult to express what one wants to say when it must be said in another language that is not yours. I suppose you understand it, don't you?

Captain_Orso wrote:Hola Ethan , they do increase; just not like described in the Wiki.

That's what I meant with my previous post.

Since the lower unit has 2XP everything listed should have gone up 1 point. But all the attributes, which should only go up on every even numbered XP actually went up 2(!!) and the initiative, which increases on odd-numbered XPs, did not go up at all ; and the Discipline still doesn't match to anything, but it did go up one.

This is very odd, since all attributes didn't improve as expected.

Okay, this is a recently built brigade from PA. Its cohesion value doesn't match to the model file (103 instead of 75).

lodilefty wrote:Cohesion max is affected by several Leader Abilities as well..

This is a loose unit without leader.

Ethan wrote:Hola Captain_Orso!

Sometimes, it's a little bit difficult to express what one wants to say when it must be said in another language that is not yours. I suppose you understand it, don't you?



That's what I meant with my previous post.



This is very odd, since all attributes didn't improve as expected.

Okay, this is a recently built brigade from PA. Its cohesion value doesn't match to the model file (103 instead of 75).







This is a loose unit without leader.

Post the saved game here and I'll look at it....

Well, this is the saved game file, Lodi.

Thank you very much for taking the time to check it.

Greetings!

lodilefty wrote:Effects of Experience are regulated by the parameters found in \Settings\GameLogic.opt:
8<
Cohesion max is affected by several Leader Abilities as well..

Meister, These parameters are poorly described to the extreme.

Firstly, that is understood what is being talked about, Xp are the eXperience-points you see in the Experience Detail Tool-Tip of an element's Unit Display. The Experience Level (EL) is denoted in the number of stars on the elements Unit Display. An element without any stars has EL 0.

The only way I've been able to interpret the most of these parameters to any degree is by comparing with a number of elements at different ELs.

- expMaxLevel = 1000
I assume that this is the maximum number of Xp that an element can have; all purchased elements start at 0, some event generated elements are allocated Xp at their creation.

- expProgCoeff = 100 // Prog Rate overall modifier in %
- expXpGainCoeff = 100 // Xp gain overall modifier in %
Coefficients of 100 are inconsequential as they result in no change. 100/100 = 1 * x = x

- expXpGainCoeffLeaderKill = 10 // Leaders get 10% of their subordinate SU xp gain
- expXpGainCoeffLeaderDie = 5 // Leaders lose 5% of their subordinate SU xp worth loss
Deals with leaders gaining and losing Xp depending on Sub-Units actions.

- expXPGainWhenHittingH = 50 // this value of xp when hitting an enemy
Deals with the actual gain of the Xp, but not their affect on leveling-up.

- expChancePerXPLevelTrain = 2 // % chance per turn per level to switch to TrainUpg
So all elements, I assume if the have a TechUpg parameter, have a 2% chance of upgrading automatically without an explicit event.

- expXPLevelUpgRetainPerc = 75 // % xp kept when TrainUpg/TechUpg
And if the upgrade they retain 75% of their Xp. From experience with other events, I assume that this does not count for units upgraded by event, but that's just a guess.

- expReplChanceSpendTechUpg = 50 // chance to spend a rpl when TechUpg
It appears that there is a 50% chance of a TechUpgrade costing a replacement point.

- expAutoGainXPChance = 5 // % chance per turn to gain 1 xp
Elements have a 5% chance of randomly gaining an Xp.

- expAutoGainXPMaxLevel = 1 // max level that can be reached with autogain (VGN = 4)
If an element gains enough Xp through 'autogain' it can still only Level-Up to a maximum of L1.

The rest of the parameters deal with which traits are changed at what Xp level. These parameters insinuate that traits might Level-Up without the element as a whole Leveling-Up (gaining a Level-Star).

Lets look first at when Leveling-Up takes place.


This is so totally inadequately described though the parameter comments. Each EL has it's own Prog Rate, which is the previous ProgRate + the base ProgRate (in the model) * the next Level-Number.
I can't think up a clever formula to represent this cleanly, but I've looked at units with a ProgRate of 10 (most infantry models) and have seen the following at Levels-0 though -4 (At L4 the Xp necessary to reach Level 5 are listed in the Tool-Tip etc.).

Most infantry models have a ProgRate parameter of 10. This defines the basis of Xp for when elements Level-Up.

• @ L0 to reach L1 : 10 Xp (the same as the ProgRate)
• @ L1 to reach L2 : 30 Xp (an increase of 20 = ProgRate (10) * L# (2) )
• @ L2 to reach L3 : 60 Xp (an increase of 30 = ProgRate (10) * L# (3) )
• @ L3 to reach L4 : 100 Xp (an increase of 40 = ProgRate (10) * L# (4) )
• @ L4 to reach L5 : 150 Xp (an increase of 50 = ProgRate (10) * L# (5) )
• @ L5 to reach L6 : 210 Xp (an increase of [color="#0000FF"]60[/color] = ProgRate (10) * L# (6) )
• @ L6 to reach L7 : 280 Xp (an increase of [color="#0000FF"]70[/color] = ProgRate (10) * L# (7) )
• @ L7 to reach L8 : 360 Xp (an increase of [color="#0000FF"]80[/color] = ProgRate (10) * L# (8) )
• @ L8 to reach L9 : 450 Xp (an increase of [color="#0000FF"]90[/color] = ProgRate (10) * L# (9) )
• @ L9 to reach L10 : 550 Xp (an increase of [color="#0000FF"]100[/color] = ProgRate (10) * L# (10) )
• @ L10 to reach L11 : 660 Xp (an increase of [color="#0000FF"]110[/color] = ProgRate (10) * L# (11) )

Cavalry has a ProgRate of 5 so the EL increases can be far greater:

• @ L0 to reach L1 : 5 Xp (the same as the ProgRate)
• @ L1 to reach L2 : 15 Xp (an increase of 10 = ProgRate (5) * L# (2) )
• @ L2 to reach L3 : 30 Xp (an increase of 15 = ProgRate (5) * L# (3) )
• @ L3 to reach L4 : 50 Xp (an increase of 20 = ProgRate (5) * L# (4) )
• @ L4 to reach L5 : 75 Xp (an increase of 25 = ProgRate (5) * L# (5) )
• @ L5 to reach L6 : 105 Xp (an increase of 30 = ProgRate (5) * L# (6) )
• @ L6 to reach L7 : 140 Xp (an increase of 35 = ProgRate (5) * L# (7) )
• @ L7 to reach L8 : 180 Xp (an increase of 40 = ProgRate (5) * L# (8) )
• @ L8 to reach L9 : 225 Xp (an increase of 45 = ProgRate (5) * L# (9) )
• @ L9 to reach L10 : 275 Xp (an increase of 50 = ProgRate (5) * L# (10) )
• @ L10 to reach L11 : 330 Xp (an increase of 55 = ProgRate (5) * L# (11) )

But this all deals only with the EL Leveling-Up, and we've seen that this is not 1-1 synchronous with the element's traits actually Leveling-Up. The following parameters seem to modify the actual number of Xp needed for element traits to actually Level-Up.

- expGainPtsOffFire = 50 // gain in hundredth of points to a given stat. Rounding to 1 starts at 0.50
- expGainPtsDefFire = 50
- expGainPtsInit = 25
- expGainPtsRange = 10 // VGN is 0
- expGainPtsROF = 10 // means first bonus is at level 11
- expGainPtsDisc = 35
- expGainPtsAslt = 65
- expGainPtsPolice = 100
- expGainPtsPatrol = 100
- expGainPtsEvade = 100
- expGainPtsCoh = 5 //3 for VGN
- expGainPtsDetect = 7
- expGainPtsHide = 7
- expGainPtsAirRec = 50
- expGainPtsAirCbt = 100
- expGainPtsAirBmb = 100

Again as with expProgCoeff and expXpGainCoeff the coefficients with 100 have no effect and the trait will Level-Up with the EL rating of the element.

If this works the way I understand it, these coefficients modify the Effective-Xp of an element. So an element with ProgRate 5 and 5Xp will Level-Up to L1, but for Leveling-Up its Off- and DefFire traits the points are multiplied by 50 hundredths (50%) making them only 2.5Xp (rounded up at the 0.5) = 3 Xp in value for determining if Off- or DefFire values increase. So actually at 9Xp [9 * 50 / 100 = 4.5 (rounded up) = 5 Effectiv-Xp would such an element actually gain in Def-/OffFire. This is assuming that an element is checked each time it gains Xp and not only when its EL actually Levels-Up.

The comment on expGainPtsROF "// means first bonus is at level 11" I cannot understand. Since the number of Xp needed for each Leveling-Up increases with each Level, an infantry element with a ProgRate of 10 will need 660 Xp to reach L11. But 660 / 10 = 66 Effective-Xp, which, looking at the above table, would be equivalent to reaching L3 with 5 Xp left over, and that contradicts the comment greatly.

Also looking the the 2 model 2 Sharpshooters (the 2 on the right) from post #13, this is how their traits compare (the L2 SS has 49 Xp according to it's Tool-Tip):
[table="width: 20, class: outer_border, align: left"]
[tr]
[td][/td]
[td]L0[/td]
[td]L2[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]OffFire[/td]
[td]9[/td]
[td]10[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]DefFire[/td]
[td]13[/td]
[td]14[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Init[/td]
[td]10[/td]
[td]10[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Range[/td]
[td]4[/td]
[td]4[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]RoF[/td]
[td]3[/td]
[td]3[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Prot.[/td]
[td]2[/td]
[td]2[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Discipline[/td]
[td]7[/td]
[td]8[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Assault[/td]
[td]9/9[/td]
[td]11/11[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Police[/td]
[td]2[/td]
[td]4[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Patrol[/td]
[td]3[/td]
[td]5[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Evade[/td]
[td]7[/td]
[td]9[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]


Interesting is that there is no modifier for Discipline. So Discipline should Level-Up each time the element's EL Levels-Up.

So if all the 'expGainPts' parameters are actually modifiers for an element's current Xp needed by their named traits for these to Level-Up, then

1. The Wiki is now way, way off
2. It doesn't explain why the Assault and Discipline values went up, when the expGainPtsAslt (65) and expGainPtsDisc (35), from my understanding, contradict this.

My brain hurts

EDIT: Corrected the increase of needed XP from level to level under:
"Most infantry models have a ProgRate parameter of 10. This defines the basis of Xp for when elements Level-Up."
Values marked in [color="#0000FF"]blue[/color] were all "50" and are now correct.

Ethan wrote:Well, this is the saved game file, Lodi.

Thank you very much for taking the time to check it.

Greetings!

Best I can see is that the unit is gaining the "at home" bonus to Cohesion for being in it's home state [PA in this case]
I moved one of the other similar brigades out of PA, and it's Cohesion max dropped.

Sort of WAD, and unlikely to be changed [requires a new AACW.exe, which won't happen short of a Game-crasher]

Thank you anyway, Lodi.

I honestly have to say that I've never actually gone around looking at the EL of my units as in the last couple of days. I've always been much more concerned with corp and army commanders and that's always worked well for me.

The status of the model 2 sharpshooters does have me wondering. It's as if they were militia or conscripts and then up-grade. I see a bunch of them at EL1 and 2 with max-cohesion of 93 or 100 respectively but their current cohesion level is actually higher than their ceiling. The only thing that comes to mind that might cause that would be the events that upgrade militia, conscripts and early war cavalry. These always increase the elements cohesion by 5 also. I think that that is so that when they upgrade their current-cohesion matches close to their max.

But model 2 sharpshooters do not even have a TechUpg defined, at least not in their model files, so they shouldn't be able to Tech- nor Train-Upgrade at all. Maybe there is some old, long forgotten legacy code in the game somewhere doing this as it doesn't match up with the files.

Lodi,
can you say anything about my interpretation of the expGainPts- parameters. This irritates me more that the sharpshooters theoretically upgrading, as I can't interpret the behavior by comparing with real elements. It's just too contradictory for my understanding.