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Can I just point out to people, especially the makers of Birth of America that England and Britain are not the same thing. You wouldn't refer to the French army as the Brittany Army, or the German army the Bavarian Army.

While I agree with the sentiment: That England and Britain are not interchangable, one could have presented it in a more polite fashion.

Stating it in the manner in which you have is not indicative of people listening to what you say, but tend to just note the rudeness of the manner in which it was said.

And could you give 'examples' rather than a generalisation with no 'evidence'

Also people make stereotypes of others as we do of others, for the most part due to accident or misunderstanding. Discussing it in a civilised manner is more productive than in argument.

Aye.

British and English look the same to me ...

Actually, I prefer the scottish, they're more friendly and they have decent drinks upthere...

Korrigan wrote:Actually, I prefer the scottish, they're more friendly and they have decent drinks upthere...

And they know how to dress !

I love the French.

good to see the Auld Alliance still beats in the hearts of its members.

Aye.

Ayeshteni wrote:While I agree with the sentiment: That England and Britain are not interchangable, one could have presented it in a more polite fashion.

Stating it in the manner in which you have is not indicative of people listening to what you say, but tend to just note the rudeness of the manner in which it was said.

And could you give 'examples' rather than a generalisation with no 'evidence'

Also people make stereotypes of others as we do of others, for the most part due to accident or misunderstanding. Discussing it in a civilised manner is more productive than in argument.

Aye.

+1!

Aye, reading it back it does come across as quite blunt. Wasn’t intended to be so, so let’s all calm down, ay? I was only intending to educate people that knew no better. No need for people to get as worked up as a French footballer in a World Cup final.

Have to say I’m not totally sure what you mean by ‘And could you give 'examples' rather than a generalisation with no 'evidence'’ England being a part of Britain isn’t a generalisation it’s a fact. I tried to give examples with the ‘German army isn’t interchangeable with Bavarian Army’ sort of thing. Perhaps a better example is England is to Britain as New South Wales is to Australia. Is that better?

BattleCry wrote:Aye, reading it back it does come across as quite blunt. Wasn’t intended to be so, so let’s all calm down, ay? I was only intending to educate people that knew no better. No need for people to get as worked up as a French footballer in a World Cup final.

Have to say I’m not totally sure what you mean by ‘And could you give 'examples' rather than a generalisation with no 'evidence'’ England being a part of Britain isn’t a generalisation it’s a fact. I tried to give examples with the ‘German army isn’t interchangeable with Bavarian Army’ sort of thing. Perhaps a better example is England is to Britain as New South Wales is to Australia. Is that better?

Um, no. Not quite.

For example:



here we see the term 'England' where it should be Britain, as you say, England and Britain are not interchangeable (This is after the Union of the Crowns and the setting up of the British parliament after all).

However, BOA is not consistent with this error...



they refer to the correct form of 'British'

A post highlighting this (examples and evidence of the erroneous entries), would have helped. These are the examples and evidence I mean.

I agree with your statement that the two forms are seperate, and I personally would like to see the England/English entries changed to Britain and British, it was just the manner in which you stated it, which was short, abrupt and rude. I had to go and look in-game to see what you were talking about.

I am Scottish, I love my country and I grimace whenever I see this error (being an ardent SNP supporter that I am, I am sure you understand)

But a polite post highlighting the error to the developers would have been preferable. Maybe thats just me, I don't know.

Ayeshteni

BattleCry wrote: I was only intending to educate people that knew no better.

We don't need no education...

Sorry, I could not resist!

More seriously,

The mistake you point out is a very commun one among non native english speakers (or should I say "non british speakers" :nuts . Actually, the French do the same mistake in french when they wrongly use "anglais" instead "britannique" (or the the other way round).

So thank you for the tip, however it is true that it is more helpful for the AGEOD team if native speakers point out some precise typo corrections in order for the Dev team to fix BoA in subsequent patches.

The game was initially coded without support of any native speaker.
This won't be the case of the second game, as the Dev Team enjoy the help of a very motivated Beta team.
For BoA, all helps from the community are most welcome and AGEOD has demonstrated an impressive willingness to be responsive to such demands.

If I can add my two cents, while it is true that British and English are not the same thing, at the time (Late 1700's) the English within "Britain" used to interchange them all the time. While some Scotsmen (and Welsh and Irish) would object, they still acted with a cultural chauvinism that persisted well into the 20th century.

While this does not pertain to the game it does pertain to the time it represents.

Is from the U.S with plenty of Irish to have a healthy sense of idignation about English/British history, but only after I have had a few and someone plays the Clancy Brothers.

Just don't call me a Texan.....

[quote="Sillywhim"]If I can add my two cents, while it is true that British and English are not the same thing, at the time (Late 1700's) the English within "Britain" used to interchange them all the time. While some Scotsmen (and Welsh and Irish) would object, they still acted with a cultural chauvinism that persisted well into the 20th century.

While this does not pertain to the game it does pertain to the time it represents. ]

True. But this is a game and is supposed to be fun. We do not want to propagate prejudices and promote inacurracies.

the language used in the game is directed to modern players, not to those who lived 250 years ago.

Ayeshteni

I agree just twisting the argument a little.

At the time (Late 1700's) the English within "Britain" used to interchange them all the time. While some Scotsmen (and Welsh and Irish) would object.

Well I went to University in England and I never once heard an Englishman refer to the whole of Britain as England so perhaps we ought to forget their uneducated mistakes of 200 years ago and put the blame for the continued propagation of this error where it belongs, such as some French people and other foreigners who by their own admission know the difference between the two names and still call Britain, England. Lest we all become crazy and support the SNP like Ayeshteni.

BattleCry wrote:Well I went to University in England and I never once heard an Englishman refer to the whole of Britain as England so perhaps we ought to forget their uneducated mistakes of 200 years ago and put the blame for the continued propagation of this error where it belongs, such as some French people and other foreigners who by their own admission know the difference between the two names and still call Britain, England. Lest we all become crazy and support the SNP like Ayeshteni.

Well if I am not mistaken some people still call all Americans "Yanks". Within the United States it only pertains to those in the North East, and when we had are little Civil War it was not considered a term of affection in the South, some people would rather be called a bad name than a Yankee.

Ignorance is exactly that, not knowing something, I don't think this group is malicious so a gentle dose of education it needed here not a rant. Which was the spirit of the first comment I made, if it got lost I need to work on the clarity of my writing.

What I am a little concerned is vitriol (real or in gest) of the response. I don't get offended if somone calls me a Yankee, and on the whole the average European is more educated and aware than those in my neck of the woods. Battle Cry if you get offended by interchanging English and British you would probably have a stroke if you heard the way World War II or the Revolutionary war is taught in the good ol' U.S.A.

Hmm lets have a better argument, like who invented the Kilt...

the news media in the US gets it wrong so often, how are the general public expected to do much better ?

the media is supposed to get its facts correct (:8o so why do they get it wrong so often when refering to England or the English, when they mean Britain or more correctly the United Kingdom. should we refer to Texas when we mean the whole of the USA ? NO... ignorance is no excuse

very rarely the reverse happens, and even the History Channel gets it wrong, they were advertising a documentary on Bravehearts Scotland, part of the Lost Worlds series and had a voiceover soundbite who used "the British" when they meant "the English" and so corrupted the meaning of the soundbite that i almost choked on my cup of tea.

i offer my service, at $1000 an hour to proof read the news reports etc to ensure the use of the correct terminology

oi_you_nutter wrote:very rarely the reverse happens, and even the History Channel gets it wrong, they were advertising a documentary on Bravehearts Scotland, part of the Lost Worlds series and had a voiceover soundbite who used "the British" when they meant "the English" and so corrupted the meaning of the soundbite that i almost choked on my cup of tea.

leure:

*sob*

Ayeshteni

when they mean Britain or more correctly the United Kingdom

Actually neither of those terms are more correct than the other, they both pertain to the entire country, it’s only when people start saying Great Britain meaning either the UK or Britain that they are wrong. Great Britain is a specific island, the main island, and not the entire archipelago that makes up the country as a whole. Whereas both simply Britain or UK are correct in referring to the entire country.

It is quite confusing and even many British people make that mistake. There ought to be a campaign to educate people on the correct usage.

Here’s a slightly off topic question for Ayeshteni, why do you support the SNP and thus a break up of the union? I did myself have some sympathy for the idea in the past but came to the conclusion that there are few, if any, tangible benefits for Scotland but a number of tangible downsides.

How much Autonomy does the SNP have? I have not really delved into the topic but it facinates me. How independant do the Scots (or some groups of Scots) want to be?
And what is really the core issue, is it economic or nationalistic, or both?

BattleCry wrote:Actually neither of those terms are more correct than the other, they both pertain to the entire country, it’s only when people start saying Great Britain meaning either the UK or Britain that they are wrong. Great Britain is a specific island, the main island, and not the entire archipelago that makes up the country as a whole. Whereas both simply Britain or UK are correct in referring to the entire country.

It is quite confusing and even many British people make that mistake. There ought to be a campaign to educate people on the correct usage.

Here’s a slightly off topic question for Ayeshteni, why do you support the SNP and thus a break up of the union? I did myself have some sympathy for the idea in the past but came to the conclusion that there are few, if any, tangible benefits for Scotland but a number of tangible downsides.

the subtlety of difference between Britain, Great Britain, British Isles and the U.K are lost on most people, and is understandable.

even so i have never heard anyone in the U.K freely cock the terminmology up like the US media does.

Sillywhim wrote:How much Autonomy does the SNP have? I have not really delved into the topic but it facinates me. How independant do the Scots (or some groups of Scots) want to be?
And what is really the core issue, is it economic or nationalistic, or both?

Hmm, this is all quite off-topic.

Autonomy? SNP is a political party like every other and have the same rights as any political party in the UK. Several groups in Scotland want independence; mainly the SNP, the SSP and the Greens. Labour wish only for Devolution as do the Liberals and the Scottish Conservatives and Unionist Party (though they didn't at its inception).

In other words, there is no going back (no disolution of the Scottish Parliament by party mandate).

It is mainly economic. Scotland could do much better without our southern border. Most of our oil revenues get sucked into London with no return to Scotland and Scotland is highly viable for alternate energy sources (no, not Nucs). Scotland craves imigration while England wishes to curb imigration. Education and law are already seperate from England. The SNP is a Eurocentric party and like Finland and the Republic of Ireland would benefit greatly from inclusion in the EU.

Oh and we could increase our prices on Water, selling it to the English (most of our water supplies in the borders region get pumped to North England) we have no water shortages unlike down south.

but as I say, all off-topic.

Ayeshteni

Well off topic is ok as long as we stay civil I guess. How popular is independance? Is it a large movement?

Sillywhim wrote:Well off topic is ok as long as we stay civil I guess. How popular is independance? Is it a large movement?

The SNP is the second biggest party in Scotland behind Labour. Independence has a large following in Scotland. As I said there are a few other parties (though much, much smaller) who also advocate Independence.

Ayeshteni

The political situation in Scotland is perhaps a bit strange in that two of the stronger parties formed the first government. What is strange about this is that we do not have an effective party in opposition. The choice is essentially limited between a weak Conservative party and a-single-issue SNP party. As the stronger of the two, the SNP picks up support as the defacto opposition party, but whether this includes support for their central tenet is unclear.

Support for independence in Scotland is significant, but a long ways from a majority held view. In the '99 election, before they could be considered the party in opposition, they polled 28% of the vote.

Basically, the arguments in favour of independence do not stack up against the arguments against independence for many Scots. Perhaps the most telling argument is why would Scots give up governing a major nation (in the UK of today, the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and Minister for Defence are all Scottish) in favour of governing a small nation?

i will steer clear of the scottish independance topic and stick to the original point

just got the Defending the Reich game by HPS, i go to start my first game and want to be the RAF Bomber Command side. guess what the title of the side is ? yes its "England"... of all the words or phrases it could have used, they used that one.

AAARRRGGGGHHHH

the RAF (including Bomber Command) contained brave men of so many nationalities that came from more countries than just the British Empire, why just did they call it "England"

WHY ?

(and I am English)

I for one think devolution is a good idea, whilst independence is a damn bad idea. All of the issues raised above could easily be dealt with without Scotland having to become an independent nation and thus suffering from all of the downsides attached to being a small nation.

As for 'The SNP is a Eurocentric party and like Finland and the Republic of Ireland would benefit greatly from inclusion in the EU.' I find that idea extremely naive. The Republic of Ireland benefits hugely from the EU because when they started to get money they were quite poor and undeveloped compared to the big EU nations, now thanks to the money they receive they are very well off and for some reason nobody in the EU has decided to revise which countries get which share of the money and thus reduce payments to the Republic of Ireland now they're not poor anymore. The SNP seems to think we can make the same thing happen for Scotland, I'm damn sure we can't.

The UK is one of those countries that pays more into the EU than we get out. If people think we in Scotland can breakaway from the rest of the UK which is basically a slap in the face, and tell them we don't want anything to do with them and then expect them to pay us lots of money through the EU then the SNP must have lost their minds. The UK would still be a big force in the EU and I'm sure they'd move heaven and earth to change the way the EU pays money to smaller nations, especially nations that aren't really poor, like an independent Scotland.

Do Scotland a favour and say ‘no’ to independence.

To be honest I feel as British as I do Scottish and vice versa. I wouldn’t want to split up the country even if there were economic benefits, which there logically can’t be from being smaller and weaker.

By the way, weren't all the officers and soldiers of the so called "British army" taking an oath of allegiance to the King of England ?, is'nt it enough to call them English soldiers ?

epsilon wrote:By the way, weren't all the officers and soldiers of the so called "British army" taking an oath of allegiance to the King of England ?, is'nt it enough to call them English soldiers ?

kkkg ppft gggnngh rrg fffggnn naag ggik

...

...

*ahem* sorry took a little fit there. No they cannot be called 'English' because they took an oath of allegiance to King of 'England'. You may (or may not ) remember that the Union of the Crowns occured when james VI of Scotland became James I of England. ireland was added to the kingdoms in 1801.

The 'King of England' is another misconception I am afraid. Also of note is that the Army is not 'Royal' (a throwback to the English Civil War), though this is a pedantic omission from the services (as various regiments are 'Royal).

But no. Your logic is a little off. They are certainly not 'English' by allegiance.

Ayeshteni