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Minipol suggested in another thread that we should offer changes to improve the performance of Athena. Athena as the Union player should move the capital to NY immediately. She cannot defend D.C. from my CSA even at the strongest settings. You should script Athena to just take the 10 point NM hit. Otherwise, a lot of CSA games will end in 1861. Just my two rebel pennies worth.

Gray Fox wrote:Minipol suggested in another thread that we should offer changes to improve the performance of Athena. Athena as the Union player should move the capital to NY immediately. She cannot defend D.C. from my CSA even at the strongest settings. You should script Athena to just take the 10 point NM hit. Otherwise, a lot of CSA games will end in 1861. Just my two rebel pennies worth.

Seems to me the simplest solution is just don't do that any more. Recognize that the AI can't defend DC - consistent with the real-life fact that the CSA never seriously tried to take it - and just adjust your play-style accordingly. You've proven you can do it - good for you - now do something else.

I certainly don't see any reason why every player should be shoehorned into an ahistorical game just becasue certain players can't resist the temptation to play ahistorically. I don't see how breaking the game for everyone "fixes" anything.

If something should be done, perhaps DC should just get more fortresses and permanently fixed units such that it can defend itself. Give them a nuke if necessary.

I think Athena just needs a little advice, moving the capitol as the first option seems a bit drastic. Right now she gets confused by all the competing interests around DC, which causes her to do weird things. She has a few problems in the West, too. Even with high detection she can't see across KY before it enters to know what kind of power is amassing in Nashville to storm up the rails into IN and OH, so doesn't know she needs to be ready.

A scripted brigade or two in Cincy, maybe even locked until KY lights up, would probably make the Indianapolis Express a lot harder to do without completely preventing such a move (I think the CSA should at least have a shot at Louisville). You could pay for it by decreasing the force pool or taking some resources away by event. Alternatively her "build-interest" in Cincy could be tweaked.

In fact, I think the interest overall could use a little adjustment. She shouldn't have anything that isn't fixed in place in New York or Philadelphia. Heck, even Baltimore doesn't need the kind of stacks she keeps there. She should want to send all that to DC.

It seems based on Fox's recent experience and things I have seen in my own games, that she has trouble organizing her stacks rationally when there are too many brigades in a region. I don't think she optimizes her support units well either. I am constantly seeing the Army stack at DC filled with multiple Balloons and Sig Corps while I hardly ever see them in other stacks. She has to be building HQs, but where are they?

The Mississippi River does not see much action at all. No attempt at Donnelson, Isl. 10 or Memphis in any of my games. Perhaps it is because she is pulling troops to other areas to react to my successes there. On my next game I am going to switch over to the Union once or twice to see if forcing her to build in Illinois gives her a nudge in the right direction.

I haven't seen her use river fleets much either. Hollings rules the Mighty Miss. in all my games.

On second thought, don't change any of this, I LIKE being able to win!

Oh, man, I'd love to get you in my sights.

This an AI thread, so I'll leave it at that.

Moving the capital immediately might be drastic but Athena should really move it once it's noticing an attack is coming and the odds are against her.
ALso, as Union players are able to hold DC, it would be nice to know how we all do it. If somebody has a method that always works, then shoot.
Putting the wisdom in Athena will make an early victory nearly impossible.

I would like to try to replicate Fox's DC Rush to get a better idea of how it is done and how the AI might counter it. Unfortunately I am going to be away for a while for work and will not be able to play or post much. I am glad Gray Fox has brought this potential exploit to everyone's attention, hopefully something can be done to teach Athena how to counter it. The first step is repeating the outcome several times and taking observations.

minipol,
I agree, but am not yet convinced that in this case the odds actually would have been that much against her had she been better prepared for a DC Rush.

GS:
Why would you want to get US in your sights? We're not gonna make the same mistakes Athena is (we will make entirely different organically human mistakes:bonk . Conversely, we aren't going to expect YOU to ignore the Mississippi River or let us establish the Potomac Line!

(Although we probably will assume that you will overbuild your Navy just like she does :neener

Not people in general - you, in PbeM.

Just 'cuz you just raised the point(s) (and it might be useful to contrast PbeM and AI):

* Actually, in CW2, I haven't been overbuilding the Navy. I may wax eloquent about it and love my jolly tars, but one should always keep in mind that it is a war on land, after all. The USN can be one very effective tool - but it can't win the war by itself.

* Still on point, I haven't been Brown Blocking at all in CW2, except for the Roads and, sometimes, the James. Bogue Inlet is a 'free' BrnBlk, so to speak, and I haven't even bothered with that. I just recently learned that BluBlk is capped at 40% without BrnBlk or port/fort captures. I have come around to building a powerful river fleet.

* Harpers: I have never had a hard time taking and keeping HF vs Athena, on either side. Occasionally, she will muscle up & retake, but briefly - I can usually regroup and retake quickly. So, I don't see HF as that much of an issue vs the AI (WARNING - some good, but limited experience on Colonel level). Humans, a 'nother ball game. Humans see and appreciate the importance of HF and the see-saw can go on for eighteen game months or more.

Alex: I'm OK to say this, it's within bounds; from my ongoing game with havi (now coming on EP time), what I have done is establish The Cordon around Alex, viz., (HF) - Leesburg, Manassas, Falmouth. Kinda tough to invade MD with that in place. havi got Stuart & went a little bit too nutty with him, scooted 'round and took Frederick for a Turn, but then got a warm reception. I almost trapped Stuart in the Greater Gettysburg area - I feel safe in saying havi had a 'whew!' moment when he got him back to the Valley (with one Cav Bde - left some cousins behind).

It takes time for the Union to establish the Cordon. What I did with havi is just keep threats alive, execute as needed, retreat when I had to. Just keep at it, keep at it. The Union can keep pumping Bdes in every Turn from New England, NY, PA.

Now for some serious tactics. Look at the board. I did this in a PbeM against P. SW Cleburne and surprised him (which surprised me) - Alex to F-burg is one (1) Turn. Yes. You can go from Alex to Fredericksburg in one move. When I first did that, Pat was "What?" & frankly admitted I had stolen a march on him. The game rewards & detracts over Manassas, but here is something the devs have never addressed - what if the Union declines Manassas and takes F-burg? No reward, no headlines - there should be, F-burg is more important.

So, what ya do to establish the Cordon is (a) gather & assign an HF Exp Force - most likely, Frederick. If the opponent takes Frederick, make it absolutely clear that that is the last stop on the trolley and growl in Baltimore and secure Harrisburg, etc., but have a dedicated force for HF; (b) take Leesburg - it's a check on HF and the river crossing messes up counters from HF - coordinate this with any moves in (non-RR) Montgomery county; Leesburg is Move One; (c) have enough strength to threaten the F-burg Express, at all times, at the very least, Falmouth. Seize Falmouth every time the CSA gets lazy. When a response is elicited, retreat back to Alex. Repeat - keep at it - "the threat is mightier than the pin."

Eventually, numbers start to tell, Hooker appears, I like Hooker/Burnside in an early Corps - just keep at it, make him pull guard duty 24/7 and put the CSA on the defensive. With some ingenuity and a bit of luck, NoVa should be yours after awhile, from HF to Falmouth, including Manassas.

Now, Stage Two: easy to describe, harder to do: I like to secure Fredericksburg - Charlottesville. Once I do, it's

Stage Three: take Interstate 64 from C-ville to Richmond - no rivers athwart this approach. Coordinate with an approach from the Yorktown peninsula (and from the beginning, be active on the peninsula as much as you can; again, keep that threat in play).

This takes lots & lotsa time and organization and some naval mix, etc. Charges of the North 'turtling' are starting to seem quite unfair. The North takes time and planning.

The idea is not to take the same ground twice.

Athena's stack of 3 Divisions that failed to take Manassas fell back to defend Alexandria. This seems to be CW not only for Athena. I recognized immediately that it should have retreated to defend Washington. Did I ahistorically exploit this blunder? Crap yes! I had planned to take Washington in spring 1862. Is it less of an ahistorical exploit then? Athena can put together a wall of stacks marching south, but she doesn't defend the capital well. Washington should have an entrenched garrison of an army stack with three Divisions and a half dozen siege mortars. Either script that or I heart NY.

Gray Fox wrote: Washington should have an entrenched garrison of an army stack with three Divisions and a half dozen siege mortars. Either script that or I heart NY.

The former is far preferable.

Only until I ahistorically exploit it.

Gray Fox wrote:Minipol suggested in another thread that we should offer changes to improve the performance of Athena. Athena as the Union player should move the capital to NY immediately. She cannot defend D.C. from my CSA even at the strongest settings. You should script Athena to just take the 10 point NM hit. Otherwise, a lot of CSA games will end in 1861. Just my two rebel pennies worth.

As a Union player, I can say Athena can have the same problem with Richmond too. The settings really don't have much to do with it. The AI difficulty adjustments just give bonuses to movement and cohesion. It doesn't really make the game "smarter." The real settings to play with are the detection bonus and the time for AI calculations.

IMO, the AI tends to be overly aggressive. It likes to go on wild raids, and it tries to hold on to everything. From the Union side of things, that means Joe Johnston racing off to no place in particular in southern PA (sometimes during raging snow storms) while you calmly move down to Richmond.

There probably be higher weights in the decision making calculations for keeping reserves in the capitols, but a lot of this stuff is unpredictable. I'm sure we could script a build and order pattern for the Union to make DC an impenetrable fortress, but the game would become predictable. Of course, the more open ended decision making code makes the game re-playable, but opens the door to dumb decisions. The real problem is that long term strategic thinking is really hard to program. Open the AI file, and you'll see it is based on behavior models (raiding, building depots, etc.). Poor Athena can get a bit overloaded at times.

Gray Fox wrote:Only until I ahistorically exploit it.

Question: How well does Athena defend Richmond? I usually play as the CSA, so I don't know the answer. But perhaps one way to assess how to help the AI defend DC is to evaluate how it defends Richmond. Just a thought.....

Sometimes OK, sometimes...not so hot. OTOH, I had a 1.02 game on Colonel that, when I got near it, was Holy Smokes! i guess Extra Free Replacements makes a difference - she had about 5000 Pwr in or near Richmond, not counting her usual Ft Monroe Stack of Doom.

Her biggest flaw in VA is not understanding that getting too worked up about Ft Monroe can take away from the front door. Now, I've usually played Medium Detect for her, so maybe one more step up would help.

Same with Pickens - she'll end up throwing a 750 Pwr force at the place. She doesn't seem to understand observational & trip-wire forces.

Crazy Raiding seems muchly toned down from AACW. She builds much too much for a naval effort, doesn't know that Brigs are the best ROI, not TPs, and if the CSA is going to pump naval $$, it should be Getting Stuff Abroad or Contest the River.

Back to VA, she does a decent job on the Rappahannock, but is too easily outflanked to the west in C-ville. I would say most Union players take Richmond in 63, when the better Leaders are making themselves felt.

If you find the right settings, she's a good opponent for an AI - tactically, she is not bad at all. Widen the scope , though, and she has troubles.