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Asked on one of the threads and no-one answered, so thought I'd started a fresh thread for this - can the French/British/Portuguese intervene in the war? France and Portugal don't seem to have any terrain. Is Gibraltar in the game?

There is no French/British/Portuguese intervention.

French terrain
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Portugal is empty.
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Gibraltar is there too.
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Carnium wrote:There is no French/British/Portuguese intervention.

(snip)
Gibraltar is there too.
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So the UK and France are in, but can't intervene? Whilst off-map Germany/Italy/Soviet Union can? That's kind of strange. Even more so just having Portugal as a blank space.

Have to be honest and say that this makes me less likely to get the game, 'cause it looks like you're limiting replay value by doing this. Are there plans to include a possible UK/French/Protuguese intervention in the future?

could be if there is much people interested in.
Anyway Germany, Italy and USSR historically sent troops and material. France and UK didn't. Portugal sent volunteers, and there is a volunteer battalion.

For the French and/or British to intervene things would have had to go quite differently as early as 1936. From the moment non intervention was declared these two could no longer do so (Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin didn't have to bother much about public opinion in this respect)...

For Britain the question would even be. On which side to intervene? The French are another question, they could not possibly have openly joined the nationalists, on the other hand they certainly could have done much more to support the republicans. Maybe control of the french border regions could give some aid to the republicans (something like a bit of WS, Money and Manpower for an RGD playable on San Sebastian or Gerona (not playable every turn), cost would be quite a bit of EP, all to represent additional fictional internationalist volunteers allowed to cross the Pirenean passes)...

Maybe a similar RGD for the Nationalists along the Portuguese border...

caranorn wrote:For Britain the question would even be. On which side to intervene?

That's the reverse of France. Britain won't intervene for Republicans who threaten britain interests in Spain. If England intervene, that's to help Franco.
But it's very dangerous for England and France to become ennemies if they both intervene...

I think you can't see an English or French intervention only in a "What if" campaign :

1. you have to CHANGE totally the politics and goals of this two nations in the decade 1930
2. France and Great Britain wanted "peace at all cost" in the pre-world war 2 and if they don't do an intervention in Tchécoslovaquie, they surely don't go in Spain.

FENRIS wrote:I think you can't see an English or French intervention only in a "What if" campaign :

1. you have to CHANGE totally the politics and goals of this two nations in the decade 1930
2. France and Great Britain wanted "peace at all cost" in the pre-world war 2 and if they don't do an intervention in Tchécoslovaquie, they surely don't go in Spain.

You don't see a possible intervention from the UK/France on the side of the Republicans even if 1) The nationalists do something crazy like demanding Gibraltar or giving broad concessions to the German (permanent basing rights etc.) in return for more support, 2) France got a radical left-wing government, or 3) the war carried on into late 1939 and ran concurrently with WW2? This seems a bit straight-jacketed.

I'm still interested in getting this game, but I'd like to see some replay-ability - and a-historical interventions are a great way of doing that. Right now I see people bragging about how they can win as the Nationalists in 13 turns - throwing in more foreign forces against them is a great way of making the game harder for experienced players.

FOARP wrote:You don't see a possible intervention from the UK/France on the side of the Republicans even if 1) The nationalists do something crazy like demanding Gibraltar or giving broad concessions to the German (permanent basing rights etc.) in return for more support, 2) France got a radical left-wing government, or 3) the war carried on into late 1939 and ran concurrently with WW2? This seems a bit straight-jacketed.

I'm still interested in getting this game, but I'd like to see some replay-ability - and a-historical interventions are a great way of doing that. Right now I see people bragging about how they can win as the Nationalists in 13 turns - throwing in more foreign forces against them is a great way of making the game harder for experienced players.

I just say : you will need an alternative scenario... with a lot of changes and works.

Including a few what ifs would certainly be interesting for a new campaign, but IMHO for the historical grand campaign we need to stick to the (cruel) reality and that is:
- UK government told the French that they would not support them if they decide to (somehow) intervene on the Republican side. They tried everything in their power to prevent a(n) (European) war, by pleasing Hitler and turning a blind eye to the Italian "conquests". If the UK government went as far as sacrificing its best and most trusted ally in the East (Czechoslovakia - which was willing to fight and had fortification much like Maginot line, excellent Škoda factories etc), what on earth would they support Spanish "red" Republic?
Have in mind that the European democracies were way too afraid of Communism than Fascism and Nazism.
- France was in deep crisis in mid-late 30s. Let-Right frictions, government changes and the prospect of another German invasion. They were in no state of intervening with their armed forces as Germany and Italy could and would take advantage on it immediately! How long would the French lasted without UK help is a wild guess, as it took the Germans 1 month and 12 days to defeat them in 1940 and that was with BEF. One could argue that Wermacht was not (yet) ready in 1936-1939, but neither were the allies.
- USA could help, but Church and right wing industrialists have blocked any attempt at doing so , plus... surprise surprise... the Nationalists bought a large quantities of US lorries. Which brings us to the last point...
- everybody wanted to profit form the Spanish pity. Latest research has revealed that even the Germans were selling arms to the Republic (via Göring for personal profit). Shocking, isn't it

Foreign intervention in wars have been the same 200-300 years ago, as they are now... no one will help you, if you don't have something to offer.

I HIGHLY recommend this book to anyone interested in SCW:
http://books.google.com/books?id=PtPelshBWCMC&dq=battle+for+spain&hl=sl&sa=X&ei=-ntBUrj3CYmStQb8o4GIAw&redir_esc=y

About Gibraltar. Franco did demand it and the Germans were more than willing to help him. But he sent such "shopping list" to the Germans that Hitler freaked out and cancelled Operation Felix.

FOARP wrote:I'm still interested in getting this game, but I'd like to see some replay-ability - and a-historical interventions are a great way of doing that. Right now I see people bragging about how they can win as the Nationalists in 13 turns - throwing in more foreign forces against them is a great way of making the game harder for experienced players.

This is not a sandbox game. AGEOD never made that kind of games.

There are more realistic options than military foreign intervention to change the balance of the game.

Carnium wrote:I HIGHLY recommend this book to anyone interested in SCW:
http://books.google.com/books?id=PtPelshBWCMC&dq=battle+for+spain&hl=sl&sa=X&ei=-ntBUrj3CYmStQb8o4GIAw&redir_esc=y

Oh, Beevor spins a good yarn, at least in his other books, I'll grant him that. But I got as far as the first chapter in this book, to the part where he pretty much says the government had it coming for being so "radical", and the military and their backers were justified in being scared about such a "radical" government.
And Beevor does tend to leave out very relevant facts when he writes, which would contradict the narrative he's attempting to sell. (The utter failure of the German army to capture Tula in "Stalingrad", for example.)

Carnium wrote:Including a few what ifs would certainly be interesting for a new campaign, but IMHO for the historical grand campaign we need to stick to the (cruel) reality and that is:
- UK government told the French that they would not support them if they decide to (somehow) intervene on the Republican side. They tried everything in their power to prevent a(n) (European) war, by pleasing Hitler and turning a blind eye to the Italian "conquests". If the UK government went as far as sacrificing its best and most trusted ally in the East (Czechoslovakia - which was willing to fight and had fortification much like Maginot line, excellent Škoda factories etc), what on earth would they support Spanish "red" Republic?
Have in mind that the European democracies were way too afraid of Communism than Fascism and Nazism.
- France was in deep crisis in mid-late 30s. Let-Right frictions, government changes and the prospect of another German invasion. They were in no state of intervening with their armed forces as Germany and Italy could and would take advantage on it immediately! How long would the French lasted without UK help is a wild guess, as it took the Germans 1 month and 12 days to defeat them in 1940 and that was with BEF. One could argue that Wermacht was not (yet) ready in 1936-1939, but neither were the allies.
- USA could help, but Church and right wing industrialists have blocked any attempt at doing so , plus... surprise surprise... the Nationalists bought a large quantities of US lorries. Which brings us to the last point...
- everybody wanted to profit form the Spanish pity. Latest research has revealed that even the Germans were selling arms to the Republic (via Göring for personal profit). Shocking, isn't it

Foreign intervention in wars have been the same 200-300 years ago, as they are now... no one will help you, if you don't have something to offer.

I HIGHLY recommend this book to anyone interested in SCW:
http://books.google.com/books?id=PtPelshBWCMC&dq=battle+for+spain&hl=sl&sa=X&ei=-ntBUrj3CYmStQb8o4GIAw&redir_esc=y

About Gibraltar. Franco did demand it and the Germans were more than willing to help him. But he sent such "shopping list" to the Germans that Hitler freaked out and cancelled Operation Felix.

Thank you Carnium for your help, your english is much better than mine to explain the situation.

Carnium wrote:- UK government, what on earth would they support Spanish "red" Republic?
Have in mind that the European democracies were way too afraid of Communism than Fascism and Nazism.

'democracies' were far more afraid of democracy than of Communism, that's why England prefered to give Spain to Franco, or to Stalin, than to people/anarchists.
At first, there were almost no 'Commies' in Spain: it is for the England 'preventing intervention' blocus (letting nationalist foreign help go) that 'republicans' (anarchists allied to socialists) asked for the Russian 'help'.

Almost no commies in Spain, ok perhaps in a strict meaning but with Largo Caballero in the PSOE and the others left-leaning groups (trotskyists, etc), there was already a strong left base in Spain, even without England actions.

On the other hand, I agree with the fact that it is clearly the failure of UK and France to help the Republic that gave them no other choice than to send the gold to the USSR and ask for Soviet help. If I were to do a What If on this basis, it would be just starting with this: with each "communist" regional decision used (proletarian revolution etc), you move some kind of ticker towards the communist side.
It could be possible to make it go the other way (towards pluralism).

Once you reach a certain number (-10/10), it would bring some kind of decisions (anarchist troops reduced, loss of loyalty but more help from the USSR if siding with the communists, loss of all the help from the USSR but a reduced French help and more loyalty on the other side). Not reaching any number would keep the status quo that exists right now.

This is just a quick idea, and lot of work. This is not the time for it I understand but that's just an idea.

ERISS wrote:'democracies' were far more afraid of democracy than of Communism, that's why England prefered to give Spain to Franco, or to Stalin, than to people/anarchists.
At first, there were almost no 'Commies' in Spain: it is for the England 'preventing intervention' blocus (letting nationalist foreign help go) that 'republicans' (anarchists allied to socialists) asked for the Russian 'help'.

I know, that's why I put red into brackets
UK aka Chamberlain did everything in its power to prevent a new war, but in the end they got the diplomatic humiliation and war.
USSR and Mexico were the only countries who gave Republic active and more or less official support (according to Beevor).

FENRIS wrote:Thank you Carnium for your help, your english is much better than mine to explain the situation.

I dare to disagree as I am still using a spell checker

Carnium wrote:UK aka Chamberlain did everything in its power to prevent a new war, but in the end they got the diplomatic humiliation and war.

But the bourgeois power obeys to the bankers, who need both wars and peace alike.
That's like for Hitler, it is for UK bankers that Nazi party survived once it was a small party, UK government did not forbidden this help preventing nazi oblivion.

caranorn wrote:Maybe control of the french border regions could give some aid to the republicans (something like a bit of WS, Money and Manpower for an RGD playable on San Sebastian or Gerona (not playable every turn), cost would be quite a bit of EP, all to represent additional fictional internationalist volunteers allowed to cross the Pirenean passes)...

Maybe a similar RGD for the Nationalists along the Portuguese border...

Of course what if scenarii will be interesting and will expend the lifespan of the game, but on a short term, I would like to focus back to this suggestion which I think is quite interesting (and much less speculative).

"Of course what if scenarii will be interesting and will expend the lifespan of the game, but on a short term, I would like to focus back to this suggestion which I think is quite interesting (and much less speculative). "

At least some potential for involving France in the war seems reasonable, given how prominent they are on the map.

Carnium wrote:Including a few what ifs would certainly be interesting for a new campaign, but IMHO for the historical grand campaign we need to stick to the (cruel) reality and that is:
- UK government told the French that they would not support them if they decide to (somehow) intervene on the Republican side. They tried everything in their power to prevent a(n) (European) war, by pleasing Hitler and turning a blind eye to the Italian "conquests". If the UK government went as far as sacrificing its best and most trusted ally in the East (Czechoslovakia - which was willing to fight and had fortification much like Maginot line, excellent Škoda factories etc), what on earth would they support Spanish "red" Republic?
Have in mind that the European democracies were way too afraid of Communism than Fascism and Nazism.
- France was in deep crisis in mid-late 30s. Let-Right frictions, government changes and the prospect of another German invasion. They were in no state of intervening with their armed forces as Germany and Italy could and would take advantage on it immediately! How long would the French lasted without UK help is a wild guess, as it took the Germans 1 month and 12 days to defeat them in 1940 and that was with BEF. One could argue that Wermacht was not (yet) ready in 1936-1939, but neither were the allies.
- USA could help, but Church and right wing industrialists have blocked any attempt at doing so , plus... surprise surprise... the Nationalists bought a large quantities of US lorries. Which brings us to the last point...
- everybody wanted to profit form the Spanish pity. Latest research has revealed that even the Germans were selling arms to the Republic (via Göring for personal profit). Shocking, isn't it

Foreign intervention in wars have been the same 200-300 years ago, as they are now... no one will help you, if you don't have something to offer.

I HIGHLY recommend this book to anyone interested in SCW:
http://books.google.com/books?id=PtPelshBWCMC&dq=battle+for+spain&hl=sl&sa=X&ei=-ntBUrj3CYmStQb8o4GIAw&redir_esc=y

About Gibraltar. Franco did demand it and the Germans were more than willing to help him. But he sent such "shopping list" to the Germans that Hitler freaked out and cancelled Operation Felix.

Read the earlier edition of Beevor's book back when I was in university, and the expanded re-issue that came out a few years ago, and have to agree it's a good read. All the same, I don't view UK/French involvement in the war as impossible or very unlikely. Even someone like Churchill eventually saw the position taken by the UK as a mistaken one, and the Labour Party under Clement Attlee were all for supporting the Nationalists. It would have required greater success on the part of the Republicans, and concessions in terms of policy, and a greater degree of threat from the nationalists, but it was not impossible - indeed, had the Spanish Civil War continued into late 1939, it would have become a near-certainty.

I'm going to buy RUS, since it's on offer at a low price, and if I like it I'll come back and buy this game as well. Thanks for all the feedback.

ERISS wrote:But the bourgeois power obeys to the bankers, who need both wars and peace alike.
That's like for Hitler, it is for UK bankers that Nazi party survived once it was a small party, UK government did not forbidden this help preventing nazi oblivion.

I feel there's something you want to say about "red shield bankers" here...