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I don't get it at all, half the time when the Camp Dick Robinson event fires then KY secedes instantly, so that I can't do anything at all since all this happens during the turn processing!!

I'm very well versed in Civil War history, heck I am probably going to take that for my P.h.D., and if I recall correctly.........Kentucky didn't secede.

It also makes even less sense since I did not move my troops into their state.
Not only that but even if I wanted to, and I absolutely did not want to, I couldn't!!!

It's more than a bit frustrating when I am doing exactly what Lincoln and Davis did which was to respect Kentucky's insanely unrealistic attempt at neutrality. The neutrality was broken by CSA troops moving to block off a Union advance from Cairo.

Camp Dick Robinson was not an official U.S. Army camp it was a camp set up by Unionist Kentuckians who were not in the U.S. Army nor were they even in the Kentucky State Guard.

The other half of the time CDR is set up in Louisville and I am able to move McClellan (very, very, slowly) to the state capital, and for some reason that doesn't do anything and Kentucky seems to wait for a few more months before taking my side (I usually play as Union)

It will be extraordinarily disappointing if the issue of Kentuckian neutrality, which I always found a quite interesting sub-topic as the only successful (if short-lived) example of neutrality in the ACW, is decided completely by a coin toss without any input from the combatants.






Is there a way to influence Kentucky to come to my side? If so what's the best way to do it?

Wow, I'm not seeing this at all, not like this.

* 1.01 (one game) - KY seceded after I put my toe in the water, so to speak.

* 1.02, 1.03 - Camp DR always in Lexington under Nelson(?). Northern KY Loyal and MC'd. Ladidadidah - build, build, build. Move fairly good sized forces to Louisville - everybody seems happy.

Wait for CSA to invade and assure Loyalty for me in the state.

I think I invaded twice as the CSA, bit the Loyalty bullet & kicked the Yankees out.

Re-install, maybe? I haven't seen anyone else report this 'awkward' set of results. Must admit, I've started at least half a dozen Union games since the first & haven't had secession since that first one under 1.01. Makes me wonder a little bit. It's been a bit too easy as the Union in my install.

I'm not sure what the odds are, or are supposed to be, but I've noticed this as well. Seems Kentucky secedes about 3/4 times the Camp Dick Robinson event fires.

In-game, secession actually helps the Union more than the Confederates, because a neutral KY provides a perfect shield. Supposedly, if KY does not secceed, then it should flip to the Union around Mar-Apr 1862 (IIRC, starting in March a 50% chance each turn)

In reality, there is no earthly way Kentucky would have seceeded. There is no doubt the governor and a significant minority of the population was pro-Southern, but not a majority. And "Pro-Southern" doesn't mean "Pro-Secession" either. But in the June 1861 elections, Unionist candidates won 9 out of 10 congressional seats, and a veto-proof majority in the state legislature. Camp Dick Robinson wasn't an official US Camp, but everyone knew it was Unionist, and they were setting up practically on the statehouse lawn, with no interference. What does that tell you? Meanwhile, the Pro-Southern equivalent camp was down in Bowling Green, the only area of the state that was definitely pro-Southern.

Anyway, rant over, but I can't see a series of events that would have led to a vote for secession, and I also don't see how KY could have maintained neutrality into 1862 either once the shooting started

Q-Ball wrote:In-game, secession actually helps the Union more than the Confederates, because a neutral KY provides a perfect shield. Supposedly, if KY does not secceed, then it should flip to the Union around Mar-Apr 1862 (IIRC, starting in March a 50% chance each turn)

In reality, there is no earthly way Kentucky would have seceeded. There is no doubt the governor and a significant minority of the population was pro-Southern, but not a majority. And "Pro-Southern" doesn't mean "Pro-Secession" either. But in the June 1861 elections, Unionist candidates won 9 out of 10 congressional seats, and a veto-proof majority in the state legislature. Camp Dick Robinson wasn't an official US Camp, but everyone knew it was Unionist, and they were setting up practically on the statehouse lawn, with no interference. What does that tell you? Meanwhile, the Pro-Southern equivalent camp was down in Bowling Green, the only area of the state that was definitely pro-Southern.

Anyway, rant over, but I can't see a series of events that would have led to a vote for secession, and I also don't see how KY could have maintained neutrality into 1862 either once the shooting started

^This

I could not have put it better myself. Lincoln and Davis too the same approach for different reasons and not just bc they were from Kentucky.

Lincoln: Being a brilliant politician understood exactly what you said: that Kentucky would never have seceded when push came to shove. There was a reason that Maryland, Delaware, Missouri, and of course Kentucky remained in the Union. They all shared very similar characteristics being pro-southern generally but with only a token slave industry meaning their economies did not rely on the export model the rest of the south did. Almost certainly the strongest motivation for not seceding was that in the event of a war it was guaranteed that their homes would be hit first and probably hardest. Seceding would have helped that process along and would have guaranteed that war would come to their state. The farthest they were willing to go was what Kentucky did, refuse to send troops and declare neutrality. There's no evidence that the majority of people in any of these states were willing to go farther. Kentucky is reminiscent of Missouri in many ways since it had a pro-secession governor and a pro-secession state guard but they did not by any means speak for the population of Kentucky as a whole and were the only ones that I have read or heard about who actively wanted to take the state out of the Union. As was demonstrated in the case of Missouri simply having a governor and a state militia who wanted to yank the state out of the Union into the arms of the Confederacy was simply not enough. Without support from a very large majority of the population then they were powerless. Almost immediately Missouri's governor had to high-tail it to Neosho where he set up a rump state government and "passed an ordinance of secession" in a town that was quite literally on the border and not long after that had to be abandoned in any case. Kentucky was much the same.

So Lincoln knew that the gvr and the militia were just a vocal minority and that as long as he respected the wishes of the true government of Kentucky, the state legislature, then eventually they would choose to stay. Considering that they did not even bring up secession when the real Camp Dick Robinson was established and the commander was given a commission in the army, that to me is a pretty big indicator of popular sentiment.

Jeff Davis knew that a neutral Kentucky was far better than a Confederate Kentucky just like you said since it shielded Tennessee which would make holding the Mississippi river and maintaining control over East Tennessee which was thoroughly Unionist just like West Virginia much easier.





I like history, especially the Civil War

I wish more battles had happened in Maryland, kind of weird to wish for but considering just how damn close to the action we were it sucks that the only battlefield is in Sharpsburg way out in the boonies

Keeler wrote:I'm not sure what the odds are, or are supposed to be, but I've noticed this as well. Seems Kentucky secedes about 3/4 times the Camp Dick Robinson event fires.

So far, my experience has been 1 out of 10, if I have the numbers right. Just once, in 1.01, my first game ever. About Sept or Oct, 61, IIRC, more or less right away.

I've never seen it since, regardless of Camp DR.

the only battlefield is in Sharpsburg way out in the boonies

I used to live in Frederick, decades ago. Didn't get to the battlefield (had been to Gettysburg many times) at Antietam Creek until ten years ago.

"Boonies?" - I can be in Sharpsburg in 90 minutes from the Beltway, I would say. Then again, I'm a country boy at heart. An interesting drive is from Harper's Ferry to Sharpsburg - steep in places. It's probably the route A. P. Hill took.

There's a battlefield at Monocacy, too, don't forget.

GraniteStater wrote:
There's a battlefield at Monocacy, too, don't forget.

And South Mountain.

I didn't know that. Wanted to get to Mill Springs(?) when I lived in Kentucky, but didn't.

GraniteStater wrote:I used to live in Frederick, decades ago. Didn't get to the battlefield (had been to Gettysburg many times) at Antietam Creek until ten years ago.

"Boonies?" - I can be in Sharpsburg in 90 minutes from the Beltway, I would say. Then again, I'm a country boy at heart. An interesting drive is from Harper's Ferry to Sharpsburg - steep in places. It's probably the route A. P. Hill took.

There's a battlefield at Monocacy, too, don't forget.

Unfortunately I am in a terrible location to get to the battlefields without making it a planned out whole day enterprise. On a map the really far north of Maryland should be a good place, and it is for Gettysburg. I have always wanted to see Antietam.

I do live in the boonies myself my neighbours are COWS! lol

MD is a weird state America in miniature is right.

Been all over it, except for any real distance beyond Sharpsburg to the west. Western MD is beautiful. Antietam is a gorgeous landscape - the contrast between the appearance and what happened there one day in September is strong.

Keeler wrote:I'm not sure what the odds are, or are supposed to be, but I've noticed this as well. Seems Kentucky secedes about 3/4 times the Camp Dick Robinson event fires.

1/10 of the time, or 1/20 can't recall. There are very low chances for Ky to secede once US gets few free region via Camp Dick Robinson events. Developers felt they had to put small what if percentage reaction of pro secessionists to the Camp.

Of course, if it doesn't secede, noone will post in the forum about it, so there is a skewed image about the odds for seceding.

But in the June 1861 elections, Unionist candidates won 9 out of 10 congressional seats, and a veto-proof majority in the state legislature.

I've red somewhere that pro Confederates actually boycoted the elections knowing they would lose, with the effect of giving 9/10 seats to the Unionists. So the state was majority pro Union, but not 9/10 of the state. Of course, I would be happy if it did join the Union on default a bit earlier than mid 62. It can always be housruled. A synchronized invasion by both sides in September 61 if we want to play a historic game. I would suggest you to try it. Historic feel to it.

I'm rather fond of KY as a shield
It gives me time to first block the east, then mass troops, take Cairo first before hitting Louisville and Lexington.

Always remember humans are different - if you want PbeM. However, in AACW, a few said that a determined CSA player could grab Cairo, at least initially. But AACW had (a) no KY rule at all in 'vanilla', then (b) a mod that was incorporated as the KY rule, as an official scenario.

So we shall see in human vs human. I would like to see a No KY Rule - wide open - it's a good alternative, more challenging for both sides, I think.

The original KY option was more restrictive than the present hardcode, IMO.

Oh, and in my PbeM experience, I never had great difficulties retaining Cairo.

The chance of Kentucky seceding is 5%. One chance in 20. Though in most of my games there is intervention sooner or later by one side or the other if it doesn’t secede.

Ace wrote:I've red somewhere that pro Confederates actually boycoted the elections knowing they would lose, with the effect of giving 9/10 seats to the Unionists. So the state was majority pro Union, but not 9/10 of the state. Of course, I would be happy if it did join the Union on default a bit earlier than mid 62. It can always be housruled. A synchronized invasion by both sides in September 61 if we want to play a historic game. I would suggest you to try it. Historic feel to it.

That is true; there was some of that, but of course some boycotted because they knew they would lose......not exactly a position from which seccession is going to happen

Of soldiers from KY, about 1/3 served in the CSA armies, and 2/3 in the Union army. That's probably a good representation of the overall sympathy. KY was very regionalized though, with very strong Southern support in the Tobacco growing regions in south central KY along the Tennessee line, and very strong Union sympathies along the Ohio River, and in Eastern KY.

Looking at where labor intensive crops like Cotton and Tobacco were grown and sold correlates amazing closely with support for CSA, or non-support.

How do you like HR idea for simultaneous invasions in Sep,61

Ace wrote:How do you like HR idea for simultaneous invasions in Sep,61

It's not a bad idea. I feel like KY was going to open shortly after September anyway.

Was Polk just stupid? I personally think he wasn't that dumb, he may have been told or sensed that KY was about to Open anyway, may as well get the first jump in order to occupy a key position. It was becoming obvious to many that neutrality was an untenable stance

Grant was making plans at that time to occupy Paducah; Polk just beat him to it.

Once shooting starts, it's very hard for anyone to stay neutral. Look at Missouri; once the shooting started (Camp Jackson), pretty much everyone picked a side. I feel like in KY, it was inevitable that something would happen, the state would open, and everyone would pick a side.

I think 'No KY Rule' should be available as a starting option.

Keeler wrote:And South Mountain.

+1
And Monocacy

Perhaps I am having interesting luck, but it seems like in 1.03 Kentucky has a much higher rate of breaking to the south. I would almost rather have the Dick Robinsion event be decidable on the union side. Something that Old Abe has to sign off on.

Bit off topic, but it would be nice to have Don Carlos and Georges Thomas spawn around September 61. This is not only in terms of keeping up with the historical timeline, but also to correct a very weak leadership pool for the union in the start.

In my current PbEM, Kentucky went south the same turn Dick R opened, my close forces were still locked in place. By shifting Jackson and Longstreet west, my valiant opponent chased me out of the Bluegrass state
faster than you can say The Munfordville Races. There seems to be some consensus that upper Kentucky is untenable for the rebs, but if the events fire right and the CSA is in place, the rebs can run the table out there if they wish.

Wow, in Union start after Union start I am having No Problem at All with KY. Get the free land, set up shop & dum-dee-dum.

Only got secession once, my very first game, in .01.

GraniteStater wrote:I think 'No KY Rule' should be available as a starting option.

A "No Kentucky Rule?" What would be there, a black hole?

No, just returning to the original vanilla AACW setup. The KY Rule was a mod, first. Then it was officialized and available as a Start - one could play 'with KY (rule)" or stick with vanilla.

* The present Starts in 61 are more favorable to the Union than the old KY Rule - imo.

* "No KY' would mean Wide Open, no 'neutrality' or anything like it. 'Go for it' time.

GraniteStater wrote:No, just returning to the original vanilla AACW setup. The KY Rule was a mod, first. Then it was officialized and available as a Start - one could play 'with KY (rule)" or stick with vanilla.

* The present Starts in 61 are more favorable to the Union than the old KY Rule - imo.

* "No KY' would mean Wide Open, no 'neutrality' or anything like it. 'Go for it' time.

Sorry, bad attempt at humor....I would not advocate removing the Commonwealth of Kentucky from the game.

If the present is more pro-Union, that must be because of how the production is allocated. Today, neutral Kentucky produces for the Union, not the Confederacy. Commercially, that does make sense, though I feel the CSA should be getting some recruits out of KY (I would advocate neutral Bowling Green being Reb)

With apologies to Stephen Foster:

The sun shines bright
On my Old Kentucky rule,
The devs, they toil in the sun.

The Yanks and Rebs,
They wander through my state,
The players say it isn't any fun.


...and go from there...