AGEOD Forums

I know this must have been asked before, but I can´t find a clear answer

Is there a benefit for Armies or Corps stacks to have independent Cav and/or Art units in it?

Any insight will be appreciated, thanks

Well, the general consensus is that the maximum amount of artillery you can put in a Division is 4, so once your divisions are full, all extra artillery goes independently into your army and corps stacks. Cavalry will add to your corps patrol and evasion(?) skills, so if you have infantry heavy divisions, a brigade of cavalry can't hurt.

For the most part any units that can't fit into your divisions can find some use independently inside your corps.

There is no limit to the amount of artillery you can put in a division, other than divisions are limited to 18 elements.

I don't think there is an inherent benefit to having Artillery independently in a Corps, and not attached to a division. It's only about the command points, and an independent unit is "cheaper" to command if it's in a division. Corps can command some independent units typically without penalty, but you may want to save those slots for supply wagons, pontoons, or other units that can't go into a division.

I think 4 artillery units per division is probably too much to use as a general rule, it will in fact make your divisions more fragile due to the fact so many elements within the division are support elements and not combat elements. Being the largest target in the battle engine, divisions attract the most fire and need the staying power of infantry elements to absorb all the hits received. According to something I read in the strategy notes for artillery in the wiki for AACW1, the game generally limits the max number of artillery elements in a battle to about 6 on average when you factor in terrain, weather etc. Sure in an open field battle in clear weather you can see a lot more artillery brought to bear (possibly reaching double digits), but most fights will see huge numbers of your artillery units not engaging due to severe frontage limitations if you pack all your divisions with 4 elements.

I think it’s probably better to put just one or perhaps two artillery units in each division, and then add the other 4+ units as independent units under the Corp or Army that is in command of those divisions. That way your division will have more staying power due to the extra infantry elements within the division itself (remember the bigger the unit the more fire it attracts) and it will still have the supporting firepower of the max number of artillery allowed by the frontage rules for the battle.

The only downside to having artillery separate from the division is the fact it won’t gain the benefit of the individual commander traits. But the added staying power of more infantry elements in your divisions will make your army far less fragile in big battles that see huge amounts of firepower directed at those divisions.

All this of course is based on my understanding of the battle engine from AACW1. I don’t think things have changed that much in AACW2 though, so I would say as a general rule for most situations it’s probably better to keep more infantry in your divisions and let the artillery remain independent.

It would be really nice if the mouse-over pop-up for a region dynamically listed the frontage limits for a region based on terrain and current weather conditions. That would make tailoring your forces for the battle at hand a huge part of the game instead of simply trying to come up with a general rule that covers most situations.

Jim

The corps artillery will target the biggest enemy unit, usually a division, and if that unit leaves the battle will find a new target to fire at.

The divisional artillery will fire only against the unit the division is fighting and if the division leaves the battlefield also the artillery is out of the battle.

So the biggest and most powerful artillery should be in the corp level, they shoot trough out the whole battle at the most important targets.

KillCalvalry wrote:There is no limit to the amount of artillery you can put in a division, other than divisions are limited to 18 elements.

... but you may want to save those slots for supply wagons, pontoons, or other units that can't go into a division.

those elements are all free (0 command pts.) to add to the corp; did you mean something else that requires command pts...

4 artilleries / division is arbitrary. It is derived from the fact that in clear terrain, in good weather, you will generally be able to commit 3 times more combat (inf, cav) units to combat than artillery units. So that is 12 inf(cav), 4 artillery units. You have filled almost entire division with it. You should not look at this composition as hard coded, you 'll be ok with 1-2 art more or less in the division as well.

Generally, it all depends on the terrain. In clear terrain you would want more, in rugged less artillery. And if you have good leader in Clear/Prairie/Desert/Wood areas, your engaged artillery numbers can skyrocket. Leader bonus to frontage is only applied in those relatively clear areas.

Here are some numbers:

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 412"]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 6"]MAXIMUM SUPPORT ELEMENTS (artillery and wagons - only one wagon can take frontage slot) ENGAGED[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 6"]Fractions rounded down to nearest whole number.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Clear[/TD]
[TD]Mud[/TD]
[TD]Snow[/TD]
[TD]Frozen[/TD]
[TD]Blizzard[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Clear/Prairie/Desert[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]15[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Wood[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]10[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Forest[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Wilderness[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Hills[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mountain[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Swamp/Marsh[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Fort/City[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]15[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 6"]Leader Bonus -- Applies in Clear/Prairie/Desert/Wood[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 5"]MAX UNITS WITH AVERAGE LEADER[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Rank = 1*; off/def = 1[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 3"]Quota Mod = 10[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Clear[/TD]
[TD]Mud[/TD]
[TD]Snow[/TD]
[TD]Frozen[/TD]
[TD]Blizzard[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Clear/Prairie/Desert[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]17[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]10[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]10[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Wood[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]11[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]10[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 5"]MAX UNITS WITH GREAT LEADER[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Rank = 3*; off/def = 4[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 3"]Quota Mod = 120[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Clear[/TD]
[TD]Mud[/TD]
[TD]Snow[/TD]
[TD]Frozen[/TD]
[TD]Blizzard[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Clear/Prairie/Desert[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]45[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]22[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]25[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]25[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]22[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Wood[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]30[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]22[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]25[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]22[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]15[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

So in Swamp, only 3 artilleries can fight at the same time, while in open terrain, with Grant (Rank = 3*; off = 6, Quota Mod = 3*6*10=180, (180+60)/4 = 60) on the offense 60 batteries can be present.

60 batteries = 60*12 = 720 guns. So if your opponent is Grant, and if he has so many guns, the only way to fight him is to dig behind large entrenchments or to take the battle in rugged terrains (as was the case historically - Wilderness battles for example).

I am posting an excell file ( [ATTACH]25345[/ATTACH] - credit to Major Tom) with all those numbers explained. You do not have to remember all those. It is enough to grasp that in rugged terrain most of your guns will be dead weight, while in open terrain you can never have enough of them.

Wow Ace, that is interesting.. Now it is a bit hard to deduct from that the ideal force composition depending on the most likely terrain of a battle. It would be interesting to compare : What should be the ideal CSA troop composition fighting against the Union in the hills of Tennessee ? in West Virginia ? From this table how can one maximise clever use of terrain to cover ones manpower/firepower shortcomings ?

are you guys using the new tooltip activated when terrain filter (7) is on? It can help.

Ace, you are both ... impressive and frightening at time

Is there some variability in frontage in the different geographic terrains ? I ask because although like many players I would like to be able to tailor force composition to the expected terrain to some extent, it would also be good to avoid overoptimizing of forces based on a very rigid frontage system, so are they some dice rolls to create a bit of variance ?

I did not want to pound you guys with numbers. They may look frightening. The bottom line is:

In hills you can have 6 batteries. In clear terrain, it all depends on the general rank and rating (15-60 batteries can be fielded).

Personally, I do tend to form 4 batteries divisions. It gives me some leniency to detach divisions on separate missions and still carry some firepower in them. If I would tailor divisions In Tennessee hills to have 1-2 batteries, I would not have such operational liberties.

veji1 wrote:Is there some variability in frontage in the different geographic terrains ? I ask because although like many players I would like to be able to tailor force composition to the expected terrain to some extent, it would also be good to avoid overoptimizing of forces based on a very rigid frontage system, so are they some dice rolls to create a bit of variance ?

Best is to use common sense, there are variables you cant control fully like weather and leader ratings.

Then in combat other things kick in, entrenchment level, leader abilities, unit abilities, experience etc..

If you try to look for the perfect battle with perfect troops you end up like McClellan.

RebelYell wrote:Best is to use common sense, there are variables you cant control fully like weather and leader ratings.

Then in combat other things kick in, entrenchment level, leader abilities, unit abilities, experience etc..

If you try to look for the perfect battle with perfect troops you end up like McClellan.

Great suggestion.

You won't be able to optimize all and every parameters entering in the combat resolution. I would personally find a little bit "gamey" to change the composition of my divisions each turn because I'm expecting a combat in a specific terrain.

Basically I stick to the 4 arty per division rules (with some exceptions depending on their availibilty and circumstances).

This is great stuff. I am always amazed at the depth one can go in this game! When the term 'artillery' is used in this post, is that 1 artillery element? if so then 4 elements per division?

Gray Ghost wrote:This is great stuff. I am always amazed at the depth one can go in this game! When the term 'artillery' is used in this post, is that 1 artillery element? if so then 4 elements per division?

Indeed elements, aka batteries. Depending on the Division's 'task', I'd use 2 light smoothbore and one heavy (6lb/12lb) and perhaps a rifles 10lb or 20lb artillery battery. Naturally, for Cavalry Divisions the horse artillery batteries.

Klink, Oberst

Pocus wrote:are you guys using the new tooltip activated when terrain filter (7) is on? It can help.

Awesome Pocus thanks, this will be my new default play map overlay for when I do my orders. So the only thing players need to do in their head now is apply weather effects. So is this chart from the AACW 1 wiki still applicable to the frontage rules or have things changed:

[ATTACH]25349[/ATTACH]

I ask because according to the wiki it used to be that weather/terrain subtracted about 25% from available frontage for the attacker. So in the screenshot below the chart I would have expected 60 frontage for the defender and 45 for the attacker instead of the 75 defender to 56 attacker that we see. If things have changed can we get a new chart similar to the above with the new values to use for our calculations?

Jim

Edit: Never mind, I missed the link in Ace's post with the exact charts I was asking for... D'oh! Thanks Ace.

Thanks all for the replies and insight, it´s great to see how deep the engine can go...I was using a couple of Art elements per Division, leaving the heavy stuff for Corps level, it seems I was off the mark somewhat, but again, usually I go for more Divisions rather than big ones, just for tactical flexibility, but it may not be the best choice for a game played primarily at operational level

Now, for Cav elements I usually put one or two per Division and the rest in dedicated Cav Div with H.Art for recon and for dealing with sneaking reaiders, indians and such, normally I don´t leave Cav elements independent at Corp or Army levels

There is a bonus to your hide value if a stack has more than 4 cav, regardless if in a div or independent.

Ace wrote:There is a bonus to your hide value if a stack has more than 4 cav, regardless if in a div or independent.

It seems to me that it doesn't work. I just started a Shiloh scenario with USA. I added a total of 7 independent cavalry regiments to Grant's army stack, but the hide value didn't change at all.
I tried also to move every non-cavalry element outside the army stack and repeated the same thing with a single division corps stack. The hide value remained the same.

If your stack has units with hide value 1, its hide value will be 1 regardless of how many cav you have inside.
More than 4 cav in stack eliminate big stack penalty to detection.

Ace wrote:If your stack has units with hide value 1, its hide value will be 1 regardless of how many cav you have inside.
More than 4 cav in stack eliminate big stack penalty to detection.

Ok, and how does big stack penalty to detection work?

Interesting discussion.

Ace and others: Would you say it makes sense to exchange 2 INF in a division for ART (12 lb.'ers for high defensive fire) in a division that I know I will only use for defence (Cleburne, Longstreet or similiar), under a high DEF guy between Washington and Richmond (mostly clear terrain) ?